PB and WS changes?

[indigoshroom]

I know there are lots of posts out there about revamping kheldians and over hauling them, and I know it takes more than the wave of a wand to change AT's this is just my thoughts and ideas on QoL changes that I have wanted to post but never did before.

 

I honestly don't think khendians really need much in order to make them feel better to play, and a few "little" changes would help out.I wanted to go though my lil idea list. Too many powers to pick/slot, shapeshifting locking out powers, shapeshifting locking out power pools and cosmic balance.

 

Why not remove the attack powers form the shapeshifts and be able to use the attacks we unlock as humans( we don't
unlock Luminous Detonation till 12 oh no!). Let Nova have access to all the ranged powers, Photon Seekers and Dawn Strike, and Dwarf has access to melee powers and gleaming bolt since they already can use it an would clean up a lot of the powers an slots on our power trays an might make sloting a bit easier especially for tri-form.  Being able to use Essence Boost, Reform Essence or Inner Light and not having to change back might feel a little bit nicer to play.

 

Power pools.. please can we just be able to use them when we look like a squid or a lobster.. lobsters have Leadership quilitys also. But really it is just something that's bogged  my mind why we can't use power pools in shapeshifted form.

 

Cosmic balance when on a mixed team and 8 people can be great, solo or a not so balanced team an its a reminder of the past that shows its age, an can be just useless. Do I have a answer for a fix.. not really all I could ever think of is maybe the longer you stay in a form the more of a stacking buff you get, like if you stay in Nova you get a stacking +damage buff. Dwarf maybe a +Def buff. Human maybe a +rech buff. that would linger for maybe 10 sec after you change forms. Lots of others have talked about this power at its prolly better left to them to hash this one out.

 

Other little change I would like give Dwarf gauntlet to taunt things. 

 

I don't want to reinvent the wheel with kheldians and didn't thing anything I said would be too crazy (maybe it is), just a post I have wanted to write for a while but never did.

 

[SableShrike]

Rebirth kinda did the whole Human=Form attacks thing.  I've not played a Kheld there enough to know if it works well.

 

The problem with it I can see is that as they are now the Forms have a complete attack chain out of the box.  People won't like to give that up, even if in the longrun you'd "save" on slots, as you only have to slot your Human attacks (that would carry over into Forms).

 

The single BIGGEST easy fix I can see is to give Cosmic Balance a Mag 2 or even Mag 3 Status PROTECTION (not Resistance).

 

Kheldians are the only Archetype in the game with a dedicated armor secondary that have no constant Status Protection (outside of Dwarf or Light Form).  But then Dwarf doesn't let you run your armor toggles while in it, soooo...  Your entire secondary shuts off as soon as you get mezzed.

 

It'd be such a minor change and would give a hell of a lot of QOL to both PBs pre-Light Form and Warshades of any level.  And keeping the Mag low would mean Cosmic Balance still has a usage.

 

Like I get where the original Devs were going with Khelds as they were built, but they've just never really been right since Day 1.  This reminds me of how Ice Armor for Tankers launched; lest we forget they had the brilliant idea you should only be able to run one toggle armor at a time.

 

And we all know how that turned out.

 

Edit:  Just had the thought that if they DID do the Human=Form attacks change, it would likely kill any changeling builds.  There literally would be no "better" Form attacks to use the changeling exploit for.

Edited January 10 by SableShrike

[Gobbledygook]

I agree with everything said here. I still wish they'd add some splash damage to incandescent Strike.

[SeraphimKensai]

Hmmm I would buy pizza for the whole dev team if kheldians got native mez protection while in human form. I'd even buy wings if theit damage scalar/cap was raised. Then I'd buy cinnamon rolls as well if the aoe knock back on PB attacks was naturally knockdown rather than knock back.

Edited January 14 by SeraphimKensai

[kelika2]

On 1/10/2025 at 2:36 AM, SableShrike said:

The problem with it I can see is that as they are now the Forms have a complete attack chain out of the box.  People won't like to give that up

thats not a huge deal.  sure you get nova form at level 6 but at the same time you get bolt/blast/eye/scatter/detonation at or before level 12.

 

[UltraAlt]

On 1/8/2025 at 10:11 PM, indigoshroom said:

Too many powers to pick/slot, shapeshifting locking out powers, shapeshifting locking out power pools and cosmic balance.

 

I generally only create a dual-form Kheldian and not a tri-form one. I will also admit that I - I'm pretty sure - have only made human/squid Peace Bringers on Homecoming.

 

I think the original concept for Kheldians was intentionally to make them difficult to play - sort of an "expert" mode if you will.

There are intentional large advantages and large disadvantages for playing Kheldians over the various 3 forms. Having 3 possible forms to use complicates the game play.

An attempt was made to balance those large advantages and disadvantages, and, though they may not make sense to some, I can agree that an attempt was made to balance the set of the 3 forms. And I think it was a fairly good attempt. And that includes limiting what powers are available in the various forms.

I generally only create a dual-form Kheldian and not a tri-form one. I will also admit that I - I'm pretty sure - have only made human/squid Peace Bringers on Homecoming.

 

On 1/8/2025 at 10:11 PM, indigoshroom said:

Being able to use Essence Boost, Reform Essence or Inner Light and not having to change back might feel a little bit nicer to play.

 

I think this comes under the general idea of complication of gameplay and game balance that was intended when using his (h)EAT.

 

On 1/8/2025 at 10:11 PM, indigoshroom said:

Power pools.. please can we just be able to use them when we look like a squid or a lobster.. lobsters have Leadership quilitys also. But really it is just something that's bogged  my mind why we can't use power pools in shapeshifted form.

 

It is entirely about game balance.

However, how are you going (fighting pool) to punch or kick anyone when in squid form? - is probably one of the most blatant examples.

 

On 1/8/2025 at 10:11 PM, indigoshroom said:

Cosmic balance when on a mixed team and 8 people can be great, solo or a not so balanced team an its a reminder of the past that shows its age, an can be just useless.

 

So are any powers that only affect other members of a team. There are a bunch of them on other ATs. Rez (other) powers are an obvious example, but there are far more.

 

On 1/8/2025 at 10:11 PM, indigoshroom said:

Cosmic balance when on a mixed team and 8 people can be great, solo or a not so balanced team an its a reminder of the past that shows its age, an can be just useless. Do I have a answer for a fix.. not really all I could ever think of is maybe the longer you stay in a form the more of a stacking buff you get, like if you stay in Nova you get a stacking +damage buff. Dwarf maybe a +Def buff. Human maybe a +rech buff. that would linger for maybe 10 sec after you change forms. Lots of others have talked about this power at its prolly better left to them to hash this one out.

 

It is supposed to be a complicated set - intentionally.

You can use various builds and switch to one that is best for the content that you will be running.

I say keep it like it is in regard to this, but make it clearer in the game messages (especially when picking powers) as to forms a Khelding can use a power. make it stand out more by making another color and/or having a note after each powers descriptions indicating "WARNING: Only use able in Human and Squid form" or something like that.

 

On 1/8/2025 at 10:11 PM, indigoshroom said:

Other little change I would like give Dwarf gauntlet to taunt things. 

 

Peacebringer Dwarfs get White Dwarf Antagonize, and Warshades Dwarfs get Black Dwarf Antagonize.

These are both Taunts. 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Inherent_Powers#Gauntlet is the specific inherent of Tankers. No other archetype gets Gauntlet ... not even Brutes.

Kheldian dwarfs have an AOE taunt that they can use, so I really don't think adding taunt to all Dwarf-form-only attacks should be necessary.

 

On 1/8/2025 at 10:11 PM, indigoshroom said:

I don't want to reinvent the wheel with kheldians and didn't thing anything I said would be too crazy (maybe it is), just a post I have wanted to write for a while but never did.

 

thanks for posting your ideas and thoughts about Kheldians.

[Warshades]

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

I think the original concept for Kheldians was intentionally to make them difficult to play - sort of an "expert" mode if you will.

 

I think the bigger issue is that Kheldians were designed very early into the game's life and they just haven't scaled as well with all the power creep that had come out since. When kheldians were available for example, we didn't have IO sets and bonuses. On SOs/HOs only, there likely wouldn't be such a noticeable difference in power between them and other ATs. At the very least, the damage cap and base damage/scale of powers needs to be adjusted and buffed. I don't need kheldians to do blaster level damage, but they (at least human version) fall well short compared to what most damage dealing ATs are able to output.

 

I could get behind kheldians being designed for expert mode, but then why not do the same for arachnos widows/soldiers? They're significantly easier to play, get better damage, provide more support to the team, and get mez protection. Meanwhile, kheldians (particularly human form) are stuck being a sub par damage dealing AT with a lacking amount of mez protection and a lot of annoying KB. The KB actually runs counter to how Warshades are meant to be played as they benefit most when enemies are grouped together. Stygian Circle/Eclipse want enemies grouped up, Orbiting Death wants enemies grouped up, Unchain Essence wants enemies grouped up, Inky Aspect wants enemies grouped up to stack with Gravitic Emanation. Yet several of the attacks (Quasar, Unchain Essence, Dark Detonation, Gravitic Emanation, and Shadow Blast) all have KB components.

 

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

So are any powers that only affect other members of a team. There are a bunch of them on other ATs. Rez (other) powers are an obvious example, but there are far more.

 

The point here is that cosmic balance is an inherent power that, when soloing, provides nothing. The closest argument that could be made is that gauntlet doesn't provide a tanker much of anything when soloing, but the counterpoint is that the gauntlet taunt would perhaps help stop enemies from running away and thus keep them in melee range for tankers to hit. There are also further arguments to be made that the kheldian inherent is pretty useless even on teams. End game builds tend to go towards perma light form or perma eclipse, thus making any resistance gains irrelevant. Similarly because of the low damage cap, you might not benefit much if at all from the damage buff from the inherent on a team. The inherent should absolutely be addressed and hopefully turned into something that is more useful in all situations.

 

Personally, I think the secondary that kheldians have is fine. At the most all it needs is some form of mez protection, which I'll point out again, VEATs get (regardless of which way they build) whereas khelds only get it through dwarf form, or a limited amount from PBs light form. I would mainly just like to see something that can help reduce some of the KB that a lot of powers do to KD and a boosted damage cap and base damage on several attacks. Not all of the human attacks need to be buffed, but there are several that severely under perform. I don't think those are game breaking changes to make and would go a long way towards making kheldians more enjoyable (not insanely over powered) to play.

[tidge]

I am ignoring the "changeling exploit" for what follows.

 

As I have written before: the general issue I see with Kheldians is that for reasons the multiforms aren't very good to play across all (levels of) content... and without multi-forms, we players will miss what is supposed to make them fun an unique. The reasons?

 

#1 Nova form gets a "full suite" of blaster-like attacks, but they all pretty much scale like low-level Blaster attacks.

 

On the one hand, this is to be expected. Nova form is pretty OP between levels 4 and 16... it has a 'complete' attack chain, and can fly... these things were not common in the early days of Live for low level characters! But imagine how poorly Blasters would perform if they only could use their first four or five primary powers.

 

#2 Dwarf form get A+ resistances, as well as mechanisms to "tank", but very little in the way of offense to clear enemies.

 

Dwarf form comes later, so it scales better (as a sort of Tank), but it never really gets any "better" at clearing spawns. Yes, we have found ways to work around this... but an always-Dwarf is going to be pretty bad at map clearing.

 

#3 The Human form don't get trivial access to some of the important things Dwarf and Nova bring: Mezz protection (Dwarf) is a big one, but so is +ToHit from Nova.

 

The end result is that it becomes necessary to swap forms to cover obvious gaps in whatever toolbox we need for the moment... and that some of those tools (namely the Nova attacks) generally aren't up to higher level content.

 

There are many ways to address these issues, but at their core, I think the Kheldians are more of a unique story-mode AT designed to allow players to do different things, but to not excel. Again, I am not saying they can't be excellent... more that if a player wants a better Blaster/Tanker then picking a Kheldian is not going to be the first best choice.

 

Personally? I find non-changeling-exploit defeat times to be a real mood killer solo. On teams, I have the luxury to swap forms and playstyles as needed.

[UltraAlt]

On 1/15/2025 at 2:37 AM, Warshades said:

I don't need kheldians to do blaster level damage, but they (at least human version) fall well short compared to what most damage dealing ATs are able to output.

 

I kind of think of it as a somewhat sentinel like human form, a damage-dealing squid form, and a tank-like dwarf form.

If I want to make a Kheldian that is a damage dealer (as I usually just dual form), go with human/squid. If I want to be tankery, I go with human/dwarf.

Does this make sense?

 

On 1/15/2025 at 2:37 AM, Warshades said:

I could get behind kheldians being designed for expert mode, but then why not do the same for arachnos widows/soldiers?

 

I honestly thought that is what they did but in a different manner.

You don't flip back-and-forth between forms, but you pick one at a certain level - if I understand correctly. Honestly, VEATs don't excite me so I've never played them.

 

On 1/15/2025 at 2:37 AM, Warshades said:

Meanwhile, kheldians (particularly human form) are stuck being a sub par damage dealing AT with a lacking amount of mez protection and a lot of annoying KB.

 

I tend to always get the fighting pool on my kheldians.

I can't remember what I did about kb mitigation in human form, but I don't remember it being a big issue, but I don't solo a whole lot.

The same thing really goes for mez protection. I have characters that seem to get mez way more than the few kheldians that I have played have had mez issue. At any rate, I do tend to carry a column of resist effect inspirations on pretty much all of my characters (even if they are only there to get going quickly on the rare occasion that I need to use an resurrection inspiration)

 

On 1/15/2025 at 2:37 AM, Warshades said:

The KB actually runs counter to how Warshades are meant to be played as they benefit most when enemies are grouped together. Stygian Circle/Eclipse want enemies grouped up, Orbiting Death wants enemies grouped up, Unchain Essence wants enemies grouped up, Inky Aspect wants enemies grouped up to stack with Gravitic Emanation. Yet several of the attacks (Quasar, Unchain Essence, Dark Detonation, Gravitic Emanation, and Shadow Blast) all have KB components.

 

I'm not entirely familiar with warshades. I just made my first one on Homecoming a couple of days ago. I plan to be playing as human/dwarf so I have a good ways to go before I can get the dwarf form.

As far as this part goes, it kind of reminds me of the complaints of some of the marine affinity set.

 

I tend to play based on the team that I'm on. I can generally gauge pretty quickly if I should avoid using multi-target attacks or lean into the multi-target attack; if I need to back-off or if I can close; etc. So some of the power picks appear to be used when the situation allows and may not fit into the way that people want to use the sets.

 

On 1/15/2025 at 2:37 AM, Warshades said:

The point here is that cosmic balance is an inherent power that, when soloing, provides nothing

 

Okay. Sorry. 

I didn't understand it was the inherent.

So yes, I can agree with that. Defender's inherent was changes so that it would help he defender if they are soloing.

 

What do you think would thematically fit for https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Inherent_Powers#Cosmic_Balance when not teaming?

Based on the earlier comments - though may not be thematic - it could increased knockback and mez resistance when solo? Would that be a fix?

Maybe I missed what you suggested to be the change for Cosmic Balance for when solo.

 

On 1/15/2025 at 2:37 AM, Warshades said:

There are also further arguments to be made that the kheldian inherent is pretty useless even on teams.

 

I honestly haven't noticed one way or another. I'm not looking to see what archetypes are on the teams I'm on and trying to figure out what perks my Kheldian should be getting from Cosmic Balance and trying to figure out how much of an advantage that they are.

 

On 1/15/2025 at 2:37 AM, Warshades said:

At the most all it needs is some form of mez protection, which I'll point out again, VEATs get (regardless of which way they build) whereas khelds only get it through dwarf form, or a limited amount from PBs light form. I would mainly just like to see something that can help reduce some of the KB that a lot of powers do to KD and a boosted damage cap and base damage on several attacks.

 

Then it seems like to me that the Kheldian player is supposed to switch to Dwarf form when getting mezed or knocked around is an issue.

 

I am not an end-gamer. The Kheldians that I had previous to the warshade I recently made were all human/squid peacebringers.

A majority of the time, the characters stay in human form. If the team allows me to go into "blaster"-mode or if I'm running low on endurance, I switch to squid form. As the situation allows which is sometimes when my character's endurance has recovers, I switch back to human form.

 

So this seems to fit with the "increased knockback and mez resistance when solo" suggestion.

I think that for the damage increase part, that is really covered by changing into squid mode. If you choose not to pick that form, then you know you are not picking the most damaging form.

 

On 1/15/2025 at 2:37 AM, Warshades said:

Not all of the human attacks need to be buffed, but there are several that severely under perform.

 

I think that is intentional as Keldians have the other forms to compensate one way or the other as I indicated earlier.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kelika2]

On 1/15/2025 at 10:18 AM, tidge said:

#2 Dwarf form get A+ resistances, as well as mechanisms to "tank", but very little in the way of offense to clear enemies.

that mentality is thankfully long gone in most current day MMOs and city of heroes

 

tanks nowadays can deal decent damage, and amazing damage if they are geared for it.  having khelds do less damage is a step back, even in tank form.

[tidge]

7 hours ago, kelika2 said:

that mentality is thankfully long gone in most current day MMOs and city of heroes

 

tanks nowadays can deal decent damage, and amazing damage if they are geared for it.  having khelds do less damage is a step back, even in tank form.

 

^this^ is sort of my point about how the Kheldian non-human forms are effectively channeling and old-school manner of thinking.

 

Specific to Dwarf form: my recollection from Live was that in some place like Bloody Bay, with the old/Live level requirements for power picks, was that a reasonably slotted (but not particularly heavily slotted) Dwarf could hold off entire teams in PVP... sort of like how a level 50 Tanker could do it in RV, but much easier. This is one of the memories that reminds me that for the level at which the forms unlock, the Kheldians are quite impressive.

 

Dwarfs, with minimal (PB)AoE are never going to be as good at spawn-clearing as other ATs.... but the tricks they have in Dwarf form make them good (old-school) pocket tanks.

 

My thinking is that the primary reason to leave the "changeling exploit" in place is to allow players who want to use it to feel like their Kheldians are keeping pace with other ATs to do so. Any potential revamp would be a LOT of effort, and whatever direction chosen to revamp isn't likely to be the one a majority of players are asking for.