-recharge and other debuffs?

[Nemu]

You always have the option to refrain from posting. No response is still a form of response.

 

Also the ignore button exists. Why continually invest the time and emotional capital for a person you obviously do not agree with?

[Ultimo]

As I've said, I can only say what I've seen with my own eyes, and you'll be hard pressed to convince me I didn't see what I saw.

 

Such as this.  The second slot on the second bar is Spinning Kick, from a screen I took tonight.  I was fighting Council, this was after I was tagged by several Marksmen.

[Maelwys]

4 hours ago, Ultimo said:

The second slot on the second bar is Spinning Kick, from a screen I took tonight.

Are you sure that's Spinning Kick?
Spinning Kick is a Dominator-only power (from Martial Assault) and I see what look like Willpower Toggles there.

(i) What level are you?
(ii) What level were the mobs you were fighting?
(iii) Do you know the actual name of the specific mobs (as opposed to Council "marksmen")
(iv) Where did this happen: is this in a specific Mission map; a Radio Map; AE; Street Sweeping....?

Chances are that it's either a UI bug or a specific enemy power has got a decimal point in the wrong place (it's happened before)
But whilst you're seeing weird numbers on the screen... in order to narrow down the culprit and replicate it we're gonna need more accurate details. If someone can jump into the same situation and actually review the combat log + observe what values the current -recharge debuffs are doing in their Combat Numbers display we'll have more to go on...
 

[Ultimo]

L23 Street Justice Scrapper... Spinning Strike (I had to look it up).  They're Council Marksmen, same level as me, radio mission.

 

As I say, the number says 54 seconds, but it doesn't actually take that long, as the debuff only lasts 10 seconds... so it's a bit deceptive.

[Maelwys]

Cheers. Whenever I get home later this evening I'll hop on and see if I can replicate (assuming nobody else has beaten me to it!)

[Uun]

2 hours ago, Ultimo said:

L23 Street Justice Scrapper... Spinning Strike (I had to look it up).  They're Council Marksmen, same level as me, radio mission.

 

As I say, the number says 54 seconds, but it doesn't actually take that long, as the debuff only lasts 10 seconds... so it's a bit deceptive.

Spinning Strike has a 16s recharge. The Council power is Cryonic Rounds. It has 15% -recharge. Assuming you don't have any recharge slotted, your recharge would be increased to 18.8s using this formula: RechargeTime = BaseRechargeTime / ( 100% + Buffs - Debuffs ). In order for Spinning Strike to have a 54s recharge, you would have to have been hit with a 70% -recharge. It's more likely that there's a glitch with the Recharge Timer display.

[Without_Pause]

IIRC, WP doesn't offer protection from -Recharge. Outside of the possible display issue, I would change tactics to where those debuffs aren't coming in at a slower rate. 

[Maelwys]

Looks fine to me.

Midway through the recharge time of Spinning Strike; a single helping of Cryonic Rounds only budged its remaining recharge time by a second or two.
Trying to activate it after already being under the influence of a Cryonic Rounds debuff bumped its (unenhanced!) full recharge time from 16s to 19s.



I suspect either you were being hit by a UI display bug or you were under the effect of *lots* of simultaneous debuffs.

[Hedgefund]

I've seen several references to a UI display bug but, speaking for myself, I've never noticed such a thing before.  I'm not counting, of course, how the number goes up or down based on timing of various recharge buffs/debuffs but I've never seen a countdown number that I had reason to believe erroneous if the buffs/debuffs stayed static.

[Maelwys]

25 minutes ago, Hedgefund said:

I've seen several references to a UI display bug but, speaking for myself, I've never noticed such a thing before.  I'm not counting, of course, how the number goes up or down based on timing of various recharge buffs/debuffs but I've never seen a countdown number that I had reason to believe erroneous if the buffs/debuffs stayed static.

 

I've encountered many occasions now where what the UI claims doesn't quite match up with the real remaining recharge time of a power. When this occurs it's usually a 120s or longer ability such as Hasten or one of the Incarnate abilities (especially Lore).

If I attempt to manually trigger such an ability then I can sometimes get it to activate even if the UI claims there are 5-10s left before it fully recharges... and it can work the other way too, as sometimes whenever the UI claims a power is fully recharged my attempting to manually trigger it will fail and I'll just get a "recharging" message.

 

The discrepancy seems to happen more frequently if I encounter a cutscene or moved through a doorway or elevator during the power's recharge cycle. I'm guessing it might be due to lag spikes or just the client playing catch-up.

[ZemX]

On 1/18/2025 at 7:28 AM, Ultimo said:

As I say, the number says 54 seconds, but it doesn't actually take that long, as the debuff only lasts 10 seconds... so it's a bit deceptive.

 

It's not trying to be deceptive.  The game calculates recharge assuming all current buffs/debuffs will go on forever. It can't really work any other way. 

 

You might think it could get a better estimate if it takes into account the remaining duration of all those buffs/debuffs but that wouldn't work in all situations either.  Buffs/debuffs that are toggles or AoE ground patches, for example, only debuff you as long as the toggle is running or as long as you stay within the AoE of that debuff.  The game can't know that.  Nor can it know what new buffs/debuffs you will be hit with in the future.  So it doesn't try to guess.  Hell, my Rad Armor tanker gets a +recharge boost based on how many enemies are standing nearby, so my total recharge bonus can change by the second.

 

All that said, in order to understand what you're seeing, you need to include the power monitor in your screenshot like @Maelwys has (showing Recharge Time Bonus and the breakdown below it)  to see how many and how strong each of the debuffs are.  One, or even two, cryo rounds can't slow you as much as you're seeing.   So yeah, UI display bug or you're getting hit by more and/or stronger debuffs than you realize.

[tidge]

54 minutes ago, ZemX said:

It's not trying to be deceptive.  The game calculates recharge assuming all current buffs/debuffs will go on forever. It can't really work any other way. 

 

[snip]

 

All that said, in order to understand what you're seeing, you need to include the power monitor in your screenshot like @Maelwys has (showing Recharge Time Bonus and the breakdown below it)  to see how many and how strong each of the debuffs are. 

 

Whenever a player thinks they are being debuffed to the point that they begin to feel that something is wrong, monitoring specific combat attributes is a really good idea. Up to 10 may be monitored at any one time (without keeping the large window open).

 

In my own experience, most debuffs (especially -Recharge) are pretty short in duration, so a glance at my attribute monitor is usually enough to clue me in for cases when I don't recognize a visual clue on my character.

 

As for the OP... I've convinced myself that there had to have been some sort of engagement/flyby of a Winter Lord that isn't being shared. There is very little in the open world that will cause the massive amount of -Recharge described, and certainly none by grey con enemies. Winter Lords are pretty much the only thing I encounter in open world con-grey zone that can be just standing around (that is, they don't self de-rezz) that can have that effect.

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

Whenever a player thinks they are being debuffed to the point that they begin to feel that something is wrong, monitoring specific combat attributes is a really good idea. Up to 10 may be monitored at any one time (without keeping the large window open).

 

This.  Debuffs are pretty much the only reason I keep the power monitor mini-window up.  Last Hit Chance, Recovery, Regen, Any defense, Any resistance, damage bonus, recharge bonus.  I might take an extra defense or resist depending on the character but one is usually enough since debuffs tend to be -def(all) or -res(all).  For resist, I like having my two or three lowest resistances shown if I know the rest are capped.

[tidge]

The attributes I watch are 99% common for my characters;

 

To Hit Bonus <- Mostly to look for debuffs, but also to keep an eye on if I have all my toggles up

Last Hit Chance <- This is the giveaway to "maybe stop swinging"

3x Positional Defenses <- Again, to look for debuffs, and to see if a toggle is not up or otherwise not available

 

Positional defenses are typically easier to build for across ATs and Power picks, so I monitor those by habit. If I am playing a character with explicitly typed defenses I may monitor the "worst" of those.

 

I have occasionally monitored other attributes like travel speeds, endurance/recovery but those are usually for short-term testing.

[Camel]

On 1/18/2025 at 8:49 AM, Uun said:

Spinning Strike has a 16s recharge. The Council power is Cryonic Rounds. It has 15% -recharge. Assuming you don't have any recharge slotted, your recharge would be increased to 18.8s using this formula: RechargeTime = BaseRechargeTime / ( 100% + Buffs - Debuffs ). In order for Spinning Strike to have a 54s recharge, you would have to have been hit with a 70% -recharge. It's more likely that there's a glitch with the Recharge Timer display.

There are way more powers that debuff -recharge from Council, the umbral blasts that they have all do -recharge. But I'm not going to argue semantics with you. I came to this Forum post because someone on my Discord (who is in Discord channels with the Dev team and is on closed Beta) is arguing with me that the best way to counter -recharge debuffs is by building more recharge. I argued that having a decent amount of -recharge resist was a better way to combat recharge debuffs.

So I came to this Forum post to see what the community said as a whole and to reassert that I wasn't going crazy... And holy hell batman.. Some of y'all are tearing people apart on this post. You are undeniably, objectively, rude and snobby. I've been playing this game since 2006 and can attest that I have experienced everything some of these folks have been saying. Maybe not to the same extremes, but again, that's neither here, nor there and I'm not going to argue semantics with someone who clearly just wants to argue. I read the OPs post/posts and it wasn't hard to follow and understand at all what they were trying to say. That's clearly your issue for not being to understand what they were trying to say. And you know, since you're clearly the authority on this game and you know so much, you shouldn't need them to give you EVERY little piece of information to be able to decipher what mobs they were facing.

I have a Fire/Marine Affinity Corr that has all the auto accolades, a fully built, high end build... And when I run Synapse TFs? Even with the -recovery resist from Toroidal Bubble, the +recovery from that same power AND Recovery Serum.. I have noticed a substantial decrease in my endurance recovery, it will frequently go into red territory. That being said, this is because I play very aggressively and I am often one of the first to engage the mobs with Whitecap, so unless the Tank/melee toons are veterans or as aggressive as me, this is always the case and it does have a very noticeable effect on my endurance management... sometimes I even have to pop blues. When I run Manticore TFs? Attack a spawn with a Cryogenicist AND a Radiations Emission Paragon Protector when you have minimal or zero recharge debuff resist and tell me how long it takes for your powers to recharge, because I'm telling you, it's gonna take awhile. 

I really expected to come to this Forum post and find constructive information... and I did. But wow... Did I have to read through a lot of elitists dragging someone for "not being good enough". Really starting to see the toxic side of this community and it's really not enjoyable.

[Camel]

I mean seriously? The OP has been more than cordial with EVERY. Single. One. Of. You. Even posted photographic evidence of Spinning Strike having a 54 second cooldown... And y'all have the audacity to gaslight them and say "ummm, ACTUALLY... the UI has a graphic bug sometimes so that 54 second power is actually recharging in 45 seconds" and then proceed to find any way you can to invalidate their in-game experience. What do you think they did? Friggin' edited the photo and posted here so they could be "right"? 

Yeah, the UI DOES bug out sometimes when -recharge happens, yeah, the UI DOES bug out when you open your enhancement tray to look at your build. But also? Sometimes powers DO stay off cooldown for a very, VERY long time when you get hit by a substantial - recharge debuff or get several smaller ones to stack. You going to gaslight me too when I, ironically, got hit by Lingering Radiation from a Rad Emissions Paragon Protector and probably some other debuffs I can't remember on my Archery/Radiation Corrupter in a Manticore TF and manually counted the seconds it took for me to be able to use my T2 blast attack, Aimed Shot? Because it was well over 300% the normal time it recharges. It went from approximately 2 seconds to over 8. Heck, it might have recharged in 7.89 seconds! Maybe even 8.43! Still took a very, very long time considering. 

[Nemu]

The only good thing to come out of this thread is that now you have a list of the rude and emotionally deaf forum regulars that should go on your ignore list.

[Camel]

4 minutes ago, Nemu said:

The only good thing to come out of this thread is that now you have a list of the rude and emotionally deaf forum regulars that should go on your ignore list.

I get the sentiment. Sometimes I get annoyed by things in this game or people not being as "educated" as I'd/we'd like. But that's just sort of what happens when you have a game that is this old. People start losing their ability to be patient because it's easy to feel as if everyone should be as good as we all think we are. I'm guilty of it too. I'm not going to ignore anyone, sort of regret being as gung-ho as I was... But it's not a good look when some of the community gets this condescending towards people when all they are trying to do is learn. But again, no one is perfect and I'm guilty of it too.

/end rant

Sorry. Lol.

[Maelwys]

10 hours ago, Camel said:

I, ironically, got hit by Lingering Radiation from a Rad Emissions Paragon Protector and probably some other debuffs I can't remember on my Archery/Radiation Corrupter in a Manticore TF and manually counted the seconds it took for me to be able to use my T2 blast attack, Aimed Shot? Because it was well over 300% the normal time it recharges. It went from approximately 2 seconds to over 8. Heck, it might have recharged in 7.89 seconds! Maybe even 8.43! Still took a very, very long time considering. 

 

Aimed Shot has a base recharge time of 4 seconds.

The Recharge Debuff limit is -75%. That means the maximum time Aimed Shot can take to recharge is 4/(1-0.75) = 16 seconds.

Therefore Aimed Shot getting debuffed to "over 8" seconds net recharge time is quite within the realms of possibility; especially if you were on a TF with lots of debuffs flying around. Plus; the Manticore TF caps out at level 35; so even if you were exemplaring down you likely wouldn't have had a full set of powers/set bonuses available to increase your defence or debuff resistances or global recharge in order to combat those debuffs. So there's nothing suspect about that at all.

However... the OP came out with some suspect absolute statements like ""There's literally no way to fight back" and "it needs to be changed back, or at least toned down.  Right now, it's basically impossible to fight some of these guys" alongside multiple claims which are blatantly factually incorrect such as "An enemy with ice powers can hit me once, and ALL my powers suddenly take 40+ seconds to recharge" and "I have a Dark Melee/Willpower Brute who, being around L17 at the time, tried to take on 3 Cogs on a rooftop.  All three shot at him, and his endurance dropped to perhaps 10%.". Spinning Kick (which the OP originally mentioned via "My Spinning Kick power cooldown counter went up to 44 seconds, but then dropped back down to normal a few moments later") has a base recharge time of 10 seconds. It's literally impossible for that power's recharge time to be debuffed beyond 40s; let alone 44s. Clockwork "Cogs" only have one ranged attack which drain one endurance per hit; and so simply cannot drop your entire blue bar to "perhaps 10%" with one salvo.
Now bugs are certainly possible; but the scenarios that the OP was claiming here had as about as much chance of occurring as being hit by lightning on a subway train; and yet they were doubling down on it rather than fact checking themselves. 
 

Eventually it turned out that the power they meant which recharged in 44s was in fact Spinning Strike; which has a base recharge time of 16s and so theoretically could have ended up at a maximum of 64s. So we checked; just in case... and a test encounter against the enemy mentioned (which only has one single recharge debuff according to their CoDv2 profile) confirmed that those debuffs were currently working correctly and could not possibly have induced more than 15% recharge debuff with a single attack. 

Therefore in the absence of a more coherent description of the situation in which the recharge discrepancies occurred... the evidence all points either to a UI bug (and/or lag) or the OP misremembering important details (e.g. they were under at least five copies of the same debuff, which can be countered by things like jousting, popping insps, or playing a toon with noteworthy defense buffs such as the defensive powerset they were apparently using at the time...).

Speaking personally... I believe in giving someone the benefit of the doubt if/when they see strange stuff happening in CoH; as this game is old and complex and buggy and so are many of its players. I don't even get particularly uppity whenever someone leaves out information that might be crucial for diagnostic purposes (what mob, what power, what mission, what level, etc) as I've worked in IT support for decades and am well used to having to tease that kind of stuff out. However when someone gives inaccurate information and wild claims with no supporting evidence; that's a red flag; and the longer someone's been around and the more inaccurate information they spout and the more they double down on nonsensical claims/absolute statements/blanket assertions the lower my opinion of them will drop. Either here or in RL. (That said - I'm from the UK. So my typical response to being annoyed with someone is a bit of light ribbing or at absolute worst dropping the "Kind" from "Kind regards" in my email signature...)

 

  

10 hours ago, Camel said:

I really expected to come to this Forum post and find constructive information... and I did. But wow... Did I have to read through a lot of elitists dragging someone for "not being good enough". Really starting to see the toxic side of this community and it's really not enjoyable.

 

Regarding toxicity... I'd hope that if/when a new player posts, or even someone who has been around for a while and genuinely wishes to engage/learn (and who doesn't have major post history baggage) posts then they would get a slightly more patient response then someone who just comes on and rants without providing any evidence and/or a coherent argument. And I've seen this recently even in posts where a query has already been fully answered less than two threads down - people tend to play nice as long as they don't perceive a post as lazy or utter garbage. But portions of the forum community are rather more prone to resorting to mockery if someone has been around for a long time and repeatedly posts incoherent or factually incorrect statements.

And FWIW in this particular case I'd say the OP got off extremely lightly... at most a 2 on the Diantane scale.
 

Edited 15 hours ago by Maelwys