A true Force Field Defender

[Diantane]

The Force Field Defender is one of my favorites and extremely fun to play.

 

Have a FF Def on Excelsior called, "Shield-Generator". Since attacks from a defender do very little damage (unless your primary is Kinetics), there's absolutely no reason to train them past level 1 (my prerequisite tier one attack isn't in my toolbar). Because of this we use very little endurance. That blue bar stays near or at the top at all times (unless we're fighting Freakshow's and then only down 25%).

 

Most FF Def's don't train or use only seldom, "Repulsion Field." Because the description says that each enemy that it repels cost you additional endurance. Well since I use so little of that, my repulsion field is always on (and the end rarely drops because of the endless endurance ). Even the dampening bubble is on auto and is up nearly 100%. I use the Force Bomb and Repulsion Bolt constantly and they are well slotted with SO's (acc, rech, rech, kb, kb on the bomb, acc, kb, kb on the bolt). Using the bomb makes me laugh when it hits almost every time (you would too when you see a bunch of baddies fly into the air).

 

The deflection and insulation shields are three slotted with defense buff SO's ASAP. My teammates really enjoy this level of defense when doing arc missions at +3 and +4. Defenders that put all of their slots into their attacks and only the free slot in the shields are only wasting their time. When a FF defender puts that one slot bubble on me, I check the attributes and can see how weak it is (see this a lot too).

 

So when I play a defender, I "PLAY" that defender. As a FF defender I keep the extra baddies away from the team until they are ready for them (I can keep a whole group in a corner. Oh, I don't get hurt much by this. In conjunction with the Dispersion Bubble which increases our defense, I also train Weave which raises it up even more. Hover is also always on which gives me a little more defense (have two Fly SO's in it, so I move around quickly - adding defense buffs in it, helps very little (one def SO only raise defenses by 1%)).  I also trained medicine (heal self) just in case). Sure, I could train the leadership skills, but what I do to protect the team is so much better and really noticed by the teammates.

 

Most FF defenders I see cast their one slot bubbles and then casts their weak blasts. If you want to use blasts, play a blaster or a sentinel. A team with a defender that trains and slots all of their primary powers and doesn't train the weak blasts makes for a much stronger team.

 

Note: One of the FF powers, "Detention Field" only keeps one foe trapped. Repulsion Field is so much more useful.

[SeraphimKensai]

I guess that's your prerogative but my FF defender has Dark Blast as a secondary, and gets a self heal and blasts that are synergistic with the defense im giving my team. Additionally the added immobilization cone with tentacles helps control the battlefield keeping mobs in place so they can't get to ranged ATs with heavy hitting melee attacks, and an AoE stun that takes 10 minions and lts out of the fight for about 10 seconds at a time.

 

Defenders blasts still have the highest debuff/buff modifiers in the game so using a set that offers debuffs and not using those abilities is a bit asinine to me anyways. Sure if your secondary is fire blast, you'll not out compete a fire blaster but it can still be useful.

[Parabola]

We have two powersets for a reason. Ultimately the only way to progress anything in this game is defeating bad guys, and that involves doing damage. Any team member who doesn't contribute to this isn't pulling all the weight they could. There is no buff/debuff/control set that is so active that there is no time for contributing to damage output and force fields certainly doesn't require that kind of input. Play how you want to play but keep your nonsense 'one true wayism' to yourself.

[Doomguide2005]

     And as I pointed out in one Empathy "healer" build threads unless you are running entirely on SOs the idea your blasts do nothing to help the build is incorrect even if removed from the toolbar.  They're called set bonuses.  Every single blast even unused to blast can potentially contribute to personal defenses, recharge, recovery and so forth.  Nevermind as Parabola points out the damage while behind a Scrappers or Blasters contributes to the overall damage output by the team as well as carries debuffs that weaken the foes ability to either survive the teams attacks or their ability to hurt the team (i.e. defend the team).  None of which should impair the characters ability to use their primary effectively.  About the only point I remotely agree with is I'd love to see those shields/bubbles slotted just as much as I'd like to see the blasts slotted and used.  

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, Diantane said:

Since attacks from a defender do very little damage (unless your primary is Kinetics), there's absolutely no reason to train them past level 1 (my prerequisite tier one attack isn't in my toolbar). Because of this we use very little endurance. That blue bar stays near or at the top at all times (unless we're fighting Freakshow's and then only down 25%).

 

...errr, what?

Oh, wait.....

 

Welcome back to the forums.

 

I haven't seen you post for a while.

Now it all makes more sense.

 

Have a good day and have fun.

[SeraphimKensai]

2 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

I'd love to see those shields/bubbles slotted just as much as I'd like to see the blasts slotted and used.  

Typically 3 slots: LOTG 7.5 and a +5 Shieldwall Def and Def/End will get you a significantly to the point that excess slotting for def is lost due to diminishing returns. That seems to be my preferred slotting on a lot of def powers, but I'll find ways to make use of the unique +res and +tohit IOs.

[Doomguide2005]

28 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Typically 3 slots: LOTG 7.5 and a +5 Shieldwall Def and Def/End will get you a significantly to the point that excess slotting for def is lost due to diminishing returns. That seems to be my preferred slotting on a lot of def powers, but I'll find ways to make use of the unique +res and +tohit IOs.

     Yes, more less what I'd do as well with FF shields.  Maybe add a slot or so for some damage resistance uniques for Cold shields.  I may also consider 4 slots for either +accuracy (LotG set) or +4.5% neg dmg resist (Shield Wall set) depending on the overall slot demands of the build (etc., etc.).

     If I recall correctly Diantane doesn't tend to play to 50 or use IO sets which color his remarks more than a bit as well.

 

[SeraphimKensai]

3 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

 If I recall correctly Diantane doesn't tend to play to 50 or use IO sets which color his remarks more than a bit as well.

I think based on his there's nothing to do thread he's getting them to 50 and then parking them. I'm not sure if he's still investing in IOs or not.

 

Yes that 4.5 neg energy res can be very helpful on some toons especially when going for a 4star ITF, as that's a ton of negative damage.

[StriderIV]

I hear water blast pairs very well on with FF. Anyone play that combo before?

 

Slightly off topic, but how does FF transfer over to Corruptor’s? With Powerboosted FF’s, is that enough? Or do you need the crazy Defender modifiers?

[biostem]

A defender's secondary isn't there just for show...

[Zect]

14 hours ago, Diantane said:

So when I play a defender, I "PLAY" that defender.

 

A trend I've noticed is that less knowledgeable players tend to fixate on extremely specialized strats (e.g. building only for defense, or only for offense, rather than a balance of both); and insist that such builds are a lot more optimal than they really are. For another example, just look at those awful Tanker builds that take phys perfection, hasten at 49 (if they even have it), dump rech and damage procs completely, skip all their best attacks, toggle on Rune of protection to look better in Mids for forum chest-thumping, and somehow still end up with barely any more mitigation than a balanced build.

 

I have a hypothesis as to why this is so: novice players may not be able to juggle multiple build goals nor perceive synergies in the IO system, and focusing exclusively on one area results in high stats in that narrow area, which gives them an illusion of mastery.

 

If you're new to coh and reading this: don't be fooled by the one-trick pony. Attacks apply debuffs and soft controls, provide defensive IO set bonuses such as res and def, and whittle down enemies, reducing incoming fire. Conversely, strong defenses allow you to play more aggressively, maximize the potential of aoe firepower, survive mistakes, and output superior dps. Jack of all trades, master of none; but better than a master of one.

 

1 hour ago, StriderIV said:

Slightly off topic, but how does FF transfer over to Corruptor’s? With Powerboosted FF’s, is that enough? Or do you need the crazy Defender modifiers?

 

Here are the numbers for FF bubbles only, slotted 1x lotg 7.5, 1x +5 lotg or shieldwall, with agility or nerve core paragon. This is the optimal slotting, and gives 65.47% +def enhancement value (red ED starts at around 69%). 3-slotting is only worth it if the set bonus from the 3rd slot lets you hit some kind of performance breakpoint. For example, 3x lotg may give you enough HP to be HP capped or close, and on a 4* may be worth the extra slot, depending on what the rest of your build looks like.

 

Corruptor

• Base 18.62
• Powerboost 27.47

 

Defender

• Base 24.82
• Powerboost 39.57

 

At first, it may seem that the fender numbers are significantly higher. However, corrs will also have dispersion bubble and maneuvers which are worth 15-17% def depending on how deep into ED you want to go. The result is that FF corrs can actually softcap naked toons, or fall just shy of it, and the defender numbers end up being overkill in a lot of situations. I do like FF fenders on 4* hard mode, though, if I am the only +def buffer; in that case the extra def really does seem to make things comfier.

Edited May 6, 2023 by Zect

[Mjolnerd]

This is the same almost-logic that leads to Empaths who spend most of their time waiting for someone's green bar to drop but not contributing anything while everyone is at full health because "I'm a pure healer," and frankly: fart noise.

 

1 hour ago, biostem said:

A defender's secondary isn't there just for show...

 

And more to the point, it's also not just there for damage (unless it's Fire, I guess).

 

If you're not blasting, you're not applying that blast's secondary effects either; you're not debuffing enemies' damage resistance, or applying slows, or reducing their accuracy, or whatever your blast set's "thing" is. You're only doing half your job.

Edited May 6, 2023 by Mjolnerd

[Diantane]

On 5/5/2023 at 9:25 AM, SeraphimKensai said:

I guess that's your prerogative but my FF defender has Dark Blast as a secondary, and gets a self heal and blasts that are synergistic with the defense im giving my team. Additionally the added immobilization cone with tentacles helps control the battlefield keeping mobs in place so they can't get to ranged ATs with heavy hitting melee attacks, and an AoE stun that takes 10 minions and lts out of the fight for about 10 seconds at a time.

 

Defenders blasts still have the highest debuff/buff modifiers in the game so using a set that offers debuffs and not using those abilities is a bit asinine to me anyways. Sure if your secondary is fire blast, you'll not out compete a fire blaster but it can still be useful.

 

 If you are slotting those dark blasts with tohit debuffs, then you are correct, but slotting them for damage would be a waste of enhancements and slots. However you are spreading out your defender's duties (jack of all trades, master of none). A primary defense defender or a primary debuff defender would be much more powerful. Its called specialization.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Diantane

[Diantane]

On 5/5/2023 at 11:19 PM, Mjolnerd said:

This is the same almost-logic that leads to Empaths who spend most of their time waiting for someone's green bar to drop but not contributing anything while everyone is at full health because "I'm a pure healer," and frankly: fart noise.

 

 

And more to the point, it's also not just there for damage (unless it's Fire, I guess).

 

If you're not blasting, you're not applying that blast's secondary effects either; you're not debuffing enemies' damage resistance, or applying slows, or reducing their accuracy, or whatever your blast set's "thing" is. You're only doing half your job.

 

I agree with you. but again those blasts must be slotted with debuffs (its why a defender has those enhancements available to them). I made a defender once that could cap all damaging attacks, but that wasn't a high DPS character - just an experiment (Kin/beam). The reason a defender was even added to the available AT lineup was to provide the buffs and debuffs or heals. Not for doing damage. They "can" do damage, but its very weak compared to primary DPS AT's.

[SeraphimKensai]

26 minutes ago, Diantane said:

 

 If you are slotting those dark blasts with tohit debuffs, then you are correct, but slotting them for damage would be a waste of enhancements and slots. However you are spreading out your defender's duties (jack of all trades, master of none). A primary defense defender or a primary debuff defender would be much more powerful. Its called specialization.

OMG. OMG. I've won the day. This is the greatest of all honors. I never thought this day would come, the day that @Diantane conditionally tells me I'm correct. I'm going to cherish this day for the rest of this bowel movement. Thank you so much. Going back all those years back to CoH's beta, I never would of imagined Diantane giving me such high praise. Its my greatest hope to learn the game from a true master like you Diantane. I may have to bring one of my 250 or so IO'd incarnates to be your sidekick so I can learn from your wisdom.

 

Once again thank you.

[Mjolnerd]

5 hours ago, Diantane said:

 

but again those blasts must be slotted with debuffs (its why a defender has those enhancements available to them).

 

What.

 

The.

 

Eff.

 

Are you talking about?

 

That's not how it works. That's not what enhancements do. And all enhancements (apart from ATOs) are available to all ATs as long as they have a power that can take that type of enhancement.

 

Seriously, your statement makes no sense whatsoever. And neither does the complete non-sequitur that followed it -- what does capping damage have to do with anything?

[Psyonico]

Shoot, I'm playing defenders wrong?

 

*Goes back to soloing defenders*

[Energy Prime]

Defenders can have a quite helpfull Damage! And help ( and a lot ) is the main thing here.

1. Of course there is no sense in comparing dmg with a buffed blaster or vs a blaster attacking a debuffed target...
However ( in my case ), a Force Field defender.
1.  I'm (still) stacking a TONS of global recharge speed + Force Bomb (w/+100 recharge Force feedback) .. I'm getting Thunderous Blaster each 25 seconds and I'm not even close to limit. 

2.  Defender have stronger Aim, Power build up (also spamming a thousands) 
3. The (New) -Res debuff is quite good for him and all party Dmg.
4. Party becomes near immortal with 3 slots of IO only  (for the two 'shields others' ) so Why more ? Go for damage lad!
5. Defender are pretty much hard to hit so .... Use REDs at will ..you will not need purples like blasters. (though will still need anti-stuns/CC and care about resistences)
6. Defenders are 16 Targets Aoes .. Just do the Math, if you are surrounded your total damage will be way more than the 10 or 6 targets from other ATs.

 

 

Edited June 4 by Energy Prime

[Linea]

I'll be slotting my blasts.  Ex. All three builds fully armored non-proc builds from years ago before procs were a thing.

• Fire/Atomic Blaster: 325 ST dps;  100x AoE
• Nature/Fire Mirror Defender: 335 ST dps; 63x AoE
• Fire/Nature Mirror Corruptor: 325 ST dps; 67x AoE

 

 

[Maelwys]

  

1 hour ago, Energy Prime said:

Defenders can have a quite helpfull Damage! And help ( and a lot ) is the main thing here.

 

Firstly, this thread is more than a year old. So there's a distinct whiff of Necromancy in the air.

Secondly, this particular Original Poster has something of a reputation for... oh, let's be charitable.... for possessing a set of very peculiar but extremely fiercely held opinions that run contrary to well-established convention, common sense, and (occasionally) the laws of physics; which they insist on broadcasting as "fact" on the forums every so often whilst outright ignoring any helpful advice, well-intentioned replies and/or ironclad irrefutable evidence to the contrary.

You're not going to get anywhere here.
Believe me, we've tried.

- - - - - - - - - -

"THE SKY IS GREEN!"
"Are you sure? It looks Blue to me."
"Pretty sure it's Blue..."
"It's been Blue since Issue 5."
"I guess it can maybe look a bit Green if you squint?"
"Nope, it's Blue, and this is why --> [Link to NASA article Explaining atmospheric refraction]"

[a few weeks later...]

"WHY IS THE SKY SO GREEN?"
((Cue Memes and exasperated sighs))



Most of the rest of us will find it extremely difficult to build a character in CoH that can't deal decent damage; and "FF Offenders" were a thing from early days on Live. However the OP has apparently somehow managed not to take any damaging attacks until after level 10 or even until after level 20 despite them being mandatory at level one... so unfortunately there's a bit of a reality distortion field to contend with here in addition to your general everyday "reluctance to being proven wrong on the internet".

[MoonSheep]

On 5/13/2023 at 10:08 AM, Diantane said:

 

I agree with you. but again those blasts must be slotted with debuffs (its why a defender has those enhancements available to them). I made a defender once that could cap all damaging attacks, but that wasn't a high DPS character - just an experiment (Kin/beam). The reason a defender was even added to the available AT lineup was to provide the buffs and debuffs or heals. Not for doing damage. They "can" do damage, but its very weak compared to primary DPS AT's.

 

i actually agree with Diantane on this one for some sets

 

on my kin/sonic i use the secondary purely for its debuffs. if i was to run a /elec i’d slot it purely for end drain

 

i have a poison/ice and poison/fire which i slot for damage, though i do agree that for some combinations it’s best to focus on the overall buffing and debuffing elements of the defender 

 

there’s something fun about prioritising the buff and debuff potential of a defender as much as possible

[MonteCarla]

I will admit, @MoonSheep, after a recent-ish discussion here on slotting for damage vs slotting for debuffs, I made a Rad/Elec Defender and slotted her attacks for End Drain over damage, just to see what it was like.

I was pleasantly surprised. 🙂

[Maelwys]

7 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

on my kin/sonic i use the secondary purely for its debuffs. if i was to run a /elec i’d slot it purely for end drain

I mained a Sonic/Elec Defender on Live.
I still have a copy of their original circa-issue-9 build actually.

Red Noise - IOs.mxd
 
"Charge Up" was "Aim" back then, and the missing powers/slots are:
Level 8: Hurdle (2x level 50 Jump IOs)
Level 18: Health (Numina and Miracle Uniques)
Level 20: Stamina (Performance Shifter Endmod, Endmod/Rech and "Chance for Endurance" Proc; plus a regular level 50 EndMod IO)



Note the three ST attacks; the two low-level blasts (which had ED-capped Damage) plus Dominate (which had ED-capped Damage and Hold).
Voltaic Sentinel was slotted for ED-Capped Damage and a bit of Endurance Modification.
Short Circuit had ED-Capped Endurance Modification and Recharge.

This was by far my least damaging Defender (in terms of raw damage output) but it still had a passable ST attack chain that didn't compromise on ED Damage Slotting. It could also buff allies res by ~55%; heal them, grant them all permanent mez protection, inflict 60% Damage Resistance debuff on the enemy, drain an entire enemy mob (with two applications of Short Circuit); keep a AV perma-caged and floor the ToHit chance of a group in an emergency via Liquefy.

- - - - -

In Issue 19 (when inherent Fitness got added) he went through a few changes, even finding room for Thunderous Blast.



- - - - -

These days on Homecoming I've played around with the idea of making them again several times.

The below effort takes Ball Lightning and the Snipe; and swaps Dominate out for Tesla Cage (which I had at several points on Live; but Dominate was always better performing). With Barrier available I could potentially push the allied +res buffs up to +60.1%. I'd taken Power Sink previously on and off during live to let me "two-shot" mob endurance bars together with Short Circuit... but ultimately I found it made little practical difference and the smaller radius of PS got rather annoying to juggle in practical gameplay; so it's never been a must-have for me.


However... ultimately I've actually ended up rerolling him as a Corruptor instead. Short Circuit can *still* drain groups in two applications; and whilst the +res buffs are a smidge lower than before (~46.3%) the difference in damage output is night and day and it really doesn't affect its other forms of mitigation like holds, -tohit debuffs and healing. I also dropped Cage since the HOs no longer increase the magnitude, making it useless vs AVs now (rassin' frassin' stealth nerfs...) 🤣


Anyways, my point (if there is one other than all that reminiscing!) is that it's perfectly possible to build a toon that is fully effective at its major "powerset roles" (e.g. +res mitigation from Sonic/ and -endurance drain from /Elec) without skimping on the +damage slotting. I appreciate that Elec Blast has been through some major changes... but draining a mob and keeping them drained still seems to be just as straightforward today as it was back in the single-digit issues.

 

Edited June 5 by Maelwys

[MoonSheep]

15 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

I mained a Sonic/Elec Defender on Live.
I still have a copy of their original circa-issue-9 build actually.

Red Noise - IOs.mxd
 
"Charge Up" was "Aim" back then, and the missing powers/slots are:
Level 8: Hurdle (2x level 50 Jump IOs)
Level 18: Health (Numina and Miracle Uniques)
Level 20: Stamina (Performance Shifter Endmod, Endmod/Rech and "Chance for Endurance" Proc; plus a regular level 50 EndMod IO)



Note the three ST attacks; the two low-level blasts (which had ED-capped Damage) plus Dominate (which had ED-capped Damage and Hold).
Voltaic Sentinel was slotted for ED-Capped Damage and a bit of Endurance Modification.
Short Circuit had ED-Capped Endurance Modification and Recharge.

This was by far my least damaging Defender (in terms of raw damage output) but it still had a passable ST attack chain that didn't compromise on ED Damage Slotting. It could also buff allies res by ~55%; heal them, grant them all permanent mez protection, inflict 60% Damage Resistance debuff on the enemy, drain an entire enemy mob (with two applications of Short Circuit); keep a AV perma-caged and floor the ToHit chance of a group in an emergency via Liquefy.

- - - - -

In Issue 19 (when inherent Fitness got added) he went through a few changes, even finding room for Thunderous Blast.



- - - - -

These days on Homecoming I've played around with the idea of making them again several times.

The below effort takes Ball Lightning and the Snipe; and swaps Dominate out for Tesla Cage (which I had at several points on Live; but Dominate was always better performing). With Barrier available I could potentially push the allied +res buffs up to +60.1%. I'd taken Power Sink previously on and off during live to let me "two-shot" mob endurance bars together with Short Circuit... but ultimately I found it made little practical difference and the smaller radius of PS got rather annoying to juggle in practical gameplay; so it's never been a must-have for me.



However... ultimately I've actually ended up rerolling him as a Corruptor instead. Short Circuit can *still* drain groups in two applications; and whilst the +res buffs are a smidge lower than before (~46.3%) the difference in damage output is night and day and it really doesn't affect its other forms of mitigation like holds, -tohit debuffs and healing. I also dropped Cage since the HOs no longer increase the magnitude, making it useless vs AVs now (rassin' frassin' stealth nerfs...) 🤣



Anyways, my point (if there is one other than all that reminiscing!) is that it's perfectly possible to build a toon that is fully effective at its major "powerset roles" (e.g. +res mitigation from Sonic/ and -endurance drain from /Elec) without skimping on the +damage slotting. I appreciate that Elec Blast has been through some major changes... but draining a mob and keeping them drained still seems to be just as straightforward today as it was back in the single-digit issues.

 

 

thanks for the interesting and comprehensive response. interesting to see how your approach has developed over time

 

defenders can definitely debuff and damage for sure. the new end mod damage sets we now have can slot elec attacks for both end drain and a bit of damage

 

a secondary consideration for me though is mindset. it feels quite liberating to play my kin/sonic and focus purely on buffing, debuffing and supporting the team

 

i think some teams appreciate it too - for me, if i invite a buff or debuff defender to a team i’d expect them to focus on their primary set to benefit the team

[Energy Prime]

Well,. multiple builds are always welcome .. though, in my case, force field ....damage is "mandatory".. more spammers defenders like electric, + enhance buffs are mandartory ...and so on