Empathy power set in the modern City of Heroes

[Seed22]

Empathy was my favorite set. My first blueside 50 was an emp/energy fender long before side switching was a thing

 

I remade my emp to emp/sonic with perma AB and being able to keep fort on 7 people.

 

Then I made actually good sets. That emp toon has been sitting on my primary account unplayed for the last 3 years. Empathy is heinously bad as it is.

 

It's a reactionary set with no supporting mitigation to pad the blows that come in. And it's literally a way for WoW refugees to pretend to be h3al0rz still.

 

99.9% of emp players I've dealt with do not use the buffs of Empathy, meaning the set in their hands is even WORSE.

[Shin Magmus]

     Every time we get a new powerset instead of revitalizing buffs to Empathy, with merged RAs and a new power, I cry inside.  Non-terrible Empathy would be the best "new" powerset ever, and statistically it would benefit a huge % of the playerbase.  Instead, we get FlerpDerp Control.

[MoonSheep]

2 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

     These points are both correct but the gentle wording belies the... "severity" of the issue in-game.  Almost all (98%) of Empathy teammates will play in a way that may or may not inflict mental damage... on you.  This is why I think proposed buffs to the set should also make it easier to play, more "set-and-forget" if you will.

 

you mean putting healing aura on auto, applying unslotted fort on 1 team member only and instead hovering at the back of the team firing off mostly ineffective blasts at completely random and un-strategic enemies in the mob isn’t the best way to play an empath?

[MoonSheep]

2 hours ago, Seed22 said:

It's a reactionary set with no supporting mitigation to pad the blows that come in.

 

great perspective, this articulates the issue with empathy really succinctly - hadn’t thought about its pitfalls in this way before

[catsi563]

Not really

 

the healing IS the mitigation you literally can bring someone back from the cusp of defeat with a single power usage. And can turn them into a beast with a couple of buffs

 

theres very few things outside of 4-5 avs beating on someone an empath playing smart cant out heal

[JJDrakken]

3 hours ago, arcane said:

I’m not sure why you took the time to write all of this like it isn’t common knowledge. Nobody is “sleeping on Sonic” just because we acknowledge that it is good but nearly every other set is a little bit better. 

 

It's not as common as you think.  Again a lot folks don't come to forums or just parooze.  Even many more do not have Mid's.  What is common knowledge here is not common knowledge as a whole for our community.

 

As I've stated: Folks that live on these boards are a small percentage of the small percentage that look at these boards.  Most our community do not come here on average or at all.  So if someone pokes their nose in here, see's that goes oh ok cool.

 

Our forums is mostly same faces (which isn't a lot of faces) all the time in most the various places. It's same Echo Chamber pointing fingers at each over the same shit, but trying spin it a different way or just flat out misinformation being presented with such confident bravado. lol

 

Heck one person replied saying thank you, cuz they were not sure about something in that set to begin with.  Literally right above your post, thus defeating that comment in the first place.

Edited Tuesday at 07:16 PM by JJDrakken

[Maelwys]

3 hours ago, catsi563 said:

Not really

 

the healing IS the mitigation you literally can bring someone back from the cusp of defeat with a single power usage. And can turn them into a beast with a couple of buffs

 

theres very few things outside of 4-5 avs beating on someone an empath playing smart cant out heal

Healing isn't mitigation.
Heals don't absorb or avoid or otherwise reduce the damage that a character takes from an incoming attack.
Instead they just RESTORE (some of) that character's Hitpoints after the (full) damage has already been taken.

There are some very niche interactions with the anti-one-shot code; but by and large if a character has 1000 Current HP and an attack hits them for 1001 damage then no amount of healing is going to "mitigate" that and save them from faceplanting. And likewise; if a character can heal an average of 50 HP/Second and is taking an average of 49 HP/Sec then they'll be fine indefinitely (outside of the aforementioned high spike damage)... but if they're instead taking 51 HP/Second then eventually they are going to faceplant (see /Regen Scrappers of old; aside from that whole meme about constant nerfs there's another one about them being either at 100% health or Dead but never in between!)

Realistically if you're fighting something that can deal noteworthy damage then DEFENSE or RESISTANCE is what is going to save you; rather than high levels of healing.
Healing will certainly keep you topped up... but you need far; far less of it if your target has noteworthy amounts of Resistance and/or Defence.
Read up on some old threads about the Immortality Line and you'll see this in action.

Due to this it's not any of Empathy's Heals but instead Fortitude that is the most powerful tool in Empathy's belt. Unfortunately Fortitude is drastically limited in effectiveness until you get sufficient +Recharge to keep it up on most/all of your team (and Power Boost/Radial Clarion to increase its Defense values!)
Making Fortitude AoE would at least reduce the need for every single good Empath out there to hyperfocus on global +Recharge; and adding some +ABSORB to Empathy's other abilities would give some extra headroom whenever your team are suffering from occasional extreme spikes of damage. 

[ShardWarrior]

Something I like about Empathy is that it does not bury you under layer upon layer of VFX vomit, unlike sets like Ice and Thermal.  That has always been a plus for me. 

 

3 hours ago, Maelwys said:

Making Fortitude AoE would at least reduce the need for every single good Empath out there to hyperfocus on global +Recharge; and adding some +ABSORB to Empathy's other abilities would give some extra headroom whenever your team are suffering from occasional extreme spikes of damage. 

 

I like this suggestion.  Most other sets require a good amount of +Recharge too.  Nature has some truly ludicrous recharge on some of the powers.  

[Octogoat]

Give healing aura to fortunata

[Blastit]

If I had one selfish wish for Empathy it would be to make the two RA powers into toggles. I don't know if this would solve anything or be enough or whatever but I would like it.

[catsi563]

On 2/11/2025 at 5:55 PM, Maelwys said:

Healing isn't mitigation.
Heals don't absorb or avoid or otherwise reduce the damage that a character takes from an incoming attack.
Instead they just RESTORE (some of) that character's Hitpoints after the (full) damage has already been taken.

There are some very niche interactions with the anti-one-shot code; but by and large if a character has 1000 Current HP and an attack hits them for 1001 damage then no amount of healing is going to "mitigate" that and save them from faceplanting. And likewise; if a character can heal an average of 50 HP/Second and is taking an average of 49 HP/Sec then they'll be fine indefinitely (outside of the aforementioned high spike damage)... but if they're instead taking 51 HP/Second then eventually they are going to faceplant (see /Regen Scrappers of old; aside from that whole meme about constant nerfs there's another one about them being either at 100% health or Dead but never in between!)

Realistically if you're fighting something that can deal noteworthy damage then DEFENSE or RESISTANCE is what is going to save you; rather than high levels of healing.
Healing will certainly keep you topped up... but you need far; far less of it if your target has noteworthy amounts of Resistance and/or Defence.
Read up on some old threads about the Immortality Line and you'll see this in action.

Due to this it's not any of Empathy's Heals but instead Fortitude that is the most powerful tool in Empathy's belt. Unfortunately Fortitude is drastically limited in effectiveness until you get sufficient +Recharge to keep it up on most/all of your team (and Power Boost/Radial Clarion to increase its Defense values!)
Making Fortitude AoE would at least reduce the need for every single good Empath out there to hyperfocus on global +Recharge; and adding some +ABSORB to Empathy's other abilities would give some extra headroom whenever your team are suffering from occasional extreme spikes of damage. 

yes it is

 

healing is one of the three basic pillars of mitigation in the game and has been since the beginning

 

you resist the damage you avoid the damage you heal through the damage 

 

resistance defense healing 

[Shin Magmus]

16 minutes ago, catsi563 said:

yes it is

 

healing is one of the three basic pillars of mitigation in the game and has been since the beginning

 

you resist the damage you avoid the damage you heal through the damage 

 

resistance defense healing 

     Healing isn't damage mitigation.  It's literally not.

[El D]

On 2/11/2025 at 5:55 PM, Maelwys said:

Due to this it's not any of Empathy's Heals but instead Fortitude that is the most powerful tool in Empathy's belt. Unfortunately Fortitude is drastically limited in effectiveness until you get sufficient +Recharge to keep it up on most/all of your team (and Power Boost/Radial Clarion to increase its Defense values!)
Making Fortitude AoE would at least reduce the need for every single good Empath out there to hyperfocus on global +Recharge; and adding some +ABSORB to Empathy's other abilities would give some extra headroom whenever your team are suffering from occasional extreme spikes of damage. 

 

On 2/11/2025 at 9:44 PM, ShardWarrior said:

I like this suggestion.  Most other sets require a good amount of +Recharge too.  Nature has some truly ludicrous recharge on some of the powers.  

 

Seconded. Empathy being able to pre-buff that way - more akin to how every other support set aside from Pain functions via shields/res buffs - would be a pretty significant boost in usability. Also it just fits the design of the set. Empathy doesn't blunt the amount of damage or improve chance to dodge a hit, but it heals so good it provides enough hit points to tank through it anyway.

[Maelwys]

35 minutes ago, catsi563 said:

Quote

Healing isn't mitigation.

yes it is

 

healing is one of the three basic pillars of mitigation in the game and has been since the beginning

 

you resist the damage you avoid the damage you heal through the damage 

 

resistance defense healing 

Resistance reduces the damage. Defense avoids the damage. Healing restores your hitpoints after you've already taken damage.
The first two are mitigation. The last is recovery.

Let's try putting this another way...
Someone takes a swing at your face. You see the punch coming.
Do you: (a) Block it (b) Dodge it (c) Just take it like a chump but put an Ice Pack on afterwards?
 

Edited 3 hours ago by Maelwys

[shortguy on indom]

• PLEASE REMOVE 'POWER TRANSFER' AND 'PANACEA' PROCS FROM YOUR BUILDS...

[JJDrakken]

1 hour ago, Shin Magmus said:

     Healing isn't damage mitigation.  It's literally not.

 

Yes it is. Literally considered that in all Video games and Fantasy and Anime TTRPG Games, etc....

 

Yes, healing can be considered a form of damage mitigation, as it directly counteracts the effects of damage by restoring health, effectively reducing the overall impact of an injury or attack. 

 

Key points to consider:

• Definition of mitigation:

  Damage mitigation means taking actions to lessen the severity of damage or harm.
• Healing as mitigation:

  By restoring health, healing directly reduces the negative effects of damage, acting as a form of mitigation. 

   

  Healing as mitigation:

  By restoring health, healing directly reduces the negative effects of damage, acting as a form of mitigation

   

   

  Just because you FEEL & THINK that it's not, doesn't make it not so.  Those who think that way are honestly thinking bassackwards.  Nothing you'll say will change that fact. It's been a staple in everything in our gaming/lore/stories/etc...   As a form of mitigation.   Literally Regeneration is HEALING THROUGH THE DAMAGE, thus mitigating it.  

   

  Your honestly arguing at the void, those agreeing with you are apparently lost in their echo chamber with you.  So your saying your smarter at all this then every other person in our geek, lore, dorkness, fantasy, sci-fi, etc..  That have alluded or flat out said healing & regeneration is a form of mitigation. Man, the massive levels of arrogance there bud.

Edited 2 hours ago by JJDrakken

[tidge]

[Shin Magmus]

     This thread isn't supposed to be a basic English class about teaching definitions. Getting dragged into arguments with people (who are blatantly wrong) is the beginning of how all of these threads get locked.  GM GooglyMoogly is here, unseen, in the shadows.  You don't see him but he sees us all; he is watching, waiting for someone to slip up.

 

     Healing is not, and never has been, damage mitigation.  If you have 600 Healers all lined up in a row, all ready to heal, but the enemy deals a big attack and oneshots everyone... you all die because you lacked sufficient damage mitigation: now you have 600 dead Healers.  Now if the same scenario happens with 2 Healers but 598 Buffers, who boost the team's Defense and Resistance up massively: people survive.  The same attack hits your party but the damage is reduced and it also outright misses some of you, which gives the 2 Healers time to heal everyone back up to full.  The difference in these examples should be obvious.

 

<> Resistance and Defense are damage mitigation, as are debuffs to enemy stats that reduce their Damage and Tohit.

 

<> Max HP and Absorb are a damage buffer, they don't technically mitigate damage but they increase the amount of time you will survive, and therefore the time you have to react.  Max HP also multiplies Regeneration.

 

<> Healing and Regeneration are just health restoration and nothing more.  Regeneration is often stronger because it is multiplied by Max HP increases, and you can build to push both these stats very high.

[Maelwys]

37 minutes ago, JJDrakken said:

 

Yes it is. Literally considered that in all Video games and Fantasy and Anime TTRPG Games, etc....

...

• Healing as mitigation:

  By restoring health, healing directly reduces the negative effects of damage, acting as a form of mitigation

But healing does not reduce the negative effects of damage.

Reduce [Verb]
To make smaller or less in amount, degree, or size.

The effect(s) of damage in CoX is to lower the current value on your toon's health bar and/or kill them.
"Healing" does not reduce/lessen/negate those effects at all.
Healing and Regeneration recover from the effect of damage; they do not reduce it.


There are some games out there where healing can provide some actual damage reduction. Some rulesets allow for healing to grant temporary hitpoints (along the lines of what CoH calls "Absorb") or for any form of healing to give a temporary increase in a stat (such as "Constitution" or "Armor Class" or "Sanity" or whatever). But not in CoX. Anyone here who has considered "healing = mitigation" for many years has simply been wrong for many years.




  

5 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

     This thread isn't supposed to be a basic English class about teaching definitions.

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Maelwys

[Troo]

I love when folks try to be smarty pants. Especially when the say 'literally'.

 

Mitigation

Noun

1. Any powers, effects, or tactics that reduce the amount of damage suffered by a character or team, including defense, resistance, debuffs, and status effects.
2. The combined effect of all currently active damage reduction methods.

Verb

1. To cause to become less harsh or less hostile. To make less severe or painful.

[Troo]

@Shin Magmus (and don't take this personal)

 

"Any powers, effects, or tactics that reduce the amount of damage suffered" It's the games definition not mine, not webster's.

https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Mitigation

 

Includes knocks, healing, slows, even tactics, basically anything a player can think of that can "reduce the amount of damage suffered".  Before, during, or after.

@catsi563 is correct.

 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Troo

[tidge]

7 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

<> Healing and Regeneration are just health restoration and nothing more.  Regeneration is often stronger because it is multiplied by Max HP increases, and you can build to push both these stats very high.

 

[Troo]

@tidge

 

😛 no needs to make troo go cra cra nerfin the precious.. Ima twitchy enoughs

Edited 1 hour ago by Troo

[Maelwys]

13 minutes ago, Troo said:

"Any powers, effects, or tactics that reduce the amount of damage suffered" 

This includes knockback, healing, slows, even tactics, basically anything a player can think of that could possible "reduce the amount of damage suffered". @catsi563 is correct.

Knockback could stop an enemy from getting in range to attack you --> Damage reduced
Healing cannot stop an enemy from attacking you or reduce the amount of damage that is deducted from your healthbar -->  Damage not reduced
Slows could stop an enemy getting an additional attack off before they are defeated  --> Damage reduced
Tactics (as-in planning; not the pool power!) could stop an enemy getting multiple attacks off before they are defeated  --> Damage reduced

100% Agree on the others, but still a big "Nope" on Healing.
 

Edited 1 hour ago by Maelwys

[Troo]

1 minute ago, Maelwys said:

100% Agree on the others, but still a big "Nope" on Healing

 

"reduce the amount of damage suffered"

 

This is where we all go, "oh, I get it now". We all learned these things at some point. There was a point I was unaware 'tactics' could count as damage mitigation.