The "Believer" Badge does not fit the theme of being heroic at all.

[Mystoc]

THE PROBLEM

 

you find this peaceful lake creature so weak it can be one shot just chilling in a lake not harming anything you thought was a myth/legend with a benign name like sally and your first heroic reaction is lets defeat it??

 

the description of the badge just makes no sense either

"You have defeated the monster in the lake, proving to all that it is real."

so, you find a local legend not harming anything and to prove it exists you defeated it so no one else can see it too??

 

actions like that sounds word for word something like a villain would do and "Geas of the Kind Ones" is a hero accolade..

 

THE SUGGESTION

 

the badge should be turned into rescuing sally from something or healing an injury she has so she can return to the lake and be happy.

 

make it a zone event like war of the vale with level scaling, the Cabal could have captured sally and are doing a dark ritual to corrupt her and a team of heroes needs to interrupt it to free her stuff like that.

 

this would also have the beneficial effect of allowing the badge to be more easily shared with others, that's just one possible idea but anything is better than let's be heroic by defeating this harmless lake "monster" harming no one!

 

 

Edited 22 hours ago by Mystoc

[BrandX]

Whoa whoa whoa.  I saw her, causing a panic as she made her way to shore, a look in her eyes that said "I see lunch."

 

😛

[biostem]

The point, though, is that you *didn't* defeat the monster - you merely "booped" it and sent it packing.  There are also many grades of "good" - To borrow some old D&D terminology. a lawful good character may still attack a "monster", even if it hasn't hurt anyone, simply because it's a "monster".  Your role as the player is not to pass judgement on in-game badges, but to figure out ways to either rationalize said badges, or to simply avoid the steps necessary to earn those badges you don't want...

[Mystoc]

4 minutes ago, biostem said:

The point, though, is that you *didn't* defeat the monster - you merely "booped" it and sent it packing.  There are also many grades of "good" - To borrow some old D&D terminology. a lawful good character may still attack a "monster", even if it hasn't hurt anyone, simply because it's a "monster".  Your role as the player is not to pass judgement on in-game badges, but to figure out ways to either rationalize said badges, or to simply avoid the steps necessary to earn those badges you don't want...

the badge description says otherwise

 

"You have defeated the monster in the lake, proving to all that it is real."

[Rudra]

Just now, Mystoc said:

the badge description says otherwise

 

"You have defeated the monster in the lake, proving to all that it is real."

While I am inclined to agree with you, for the most part at least, Sally does not have a health bar and leaves after the first hit every time. Defeat does not always mean pound into red paste. In real life, a defeated enemy can be one that was slain, driven off, or captured for instance. Defeat being a term that covers the many different ways that a being is rendered the loser in a confrontation and not specifically being assigned to any one version of victory. And since she always dives after being hit, I'm inclined to go with the driven off version of defeat in this case.

[Mystoc]

13 minutes ago, Rudra said:

While I am inclined to agree with you, for the most part at least, Sally does not have a health bar and leaves after the first hit every time. Defeat does not always mean pound into red paste. In real life, a defeated enemy can be one that was slain, driven off, or captured for instance. Defeat being a term that covers the many different ways that a being is rendered the loser in a confrontation and not specifically being assigned to any one version of victory. And since she always dives after being hit, I'm inclined to go with the driven off version of defeat in this case.

 

I never said she was killed or gone for good but why is a hero harassing an innocent creature minding its own business that refuses to ever fight back to point they just flee each time they are attacked? if you were asked if that felt villainous or heroic what would you say? what has sally done that warrants us attacking her?

 

Edited 21 hours ago by Mystoc

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Mystoc said:

why is a hero harassing an innocent creature minding its own business

You are looking at it wrong;  Your hud indicates Sally is a targetable foe, therefore they are a valid target.  Them being flagged as an "enemy" is all you need to know.  Notice how your hero cannot mass-murder civilians, only those targets deemed acceptable....

[biostem]

22 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

"You have defeated the monster in the lake, proving to all that it is real."

In this context, "defeated" simply means "attacked once then sent them packing" - clearly, your character never intended or was able to truly defeat Sally, so she must be vastly more powerful than any hero - we're little more than a nuisance to someone as powerful as Sally.  Truly a worthy opponent!

[Nerio72]

I feel bad every time I "defeat" Sally. I'm just glad there isnt a global message "JerkyNerio" KILLED Sally y'all!"

[JKCarrier]

"Why did the farmer hit his mule with a 2-by-4?"
"Because first, you have to get his attention."

Sally is in a place she shouldn't be. She doesn't mean harm, but she's going to be a danger to any civilians she runs across, and vice-versa. You can't explain this to her, because she's a dumb beast. So the easiest, most humane solution is to give her a good smack -- not enough to cause permanent damage, but enough to convince her to turn around and go back where she came from.

[Mystoc]

8 minutes ago, JKCarrier said:

"Why did the farmer hit his mule with a 2-by-4?"
"Because first, you have to get his attention."

Sally is in a place she shouldn't be. She doesn't mean harm, but she's going to be a danger to any civilians she runs across, and vice-versa. You can't explain this to her, because she's a dumb beast. So the easiest, most humane solution is to give her a good smack -- not enough to cause permanent damage, but enough to convince her to turn around and go back where she came from.

the badge description should be changed at the very least then to better reflect this idea, I do like the head cannon around this explanation though! I just the good smack wasn't a fireball to the face.

 

 

[Rudra]

Well, before this thread gets locked....

 

 

32 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

I never said she was killed or gone for good but why is a hero harassing an innocent creature minding its own business that refuses to ever fight back to point they just flee each time they are attacked?

There are different means of approaching this.

1) Your character sees a monster swimming in the lake and moves to attack it just like with any other monster moving around a zone.

2) Your character sees a monster swimming in the lake and moves to drive it off before it comes across any people and attacks them for any/some reason.

3) Your character sees a creature swimming in the lake and moves to drive it off before the Tuatha de Dannan, Firbolg, or most likely Red Caps kill it for any reason.

4) Your character sees a myth swimming in the lake and moves to make contact with it or attacks it to make sure your character isn't hallucinating the encounter for some reason.

5) Your character sees a myth swimming in the lake and moves to kill or capture it to show everyone it really exists.

6) Your character sees a monster swimming in the lake and launches a preemptive attack for fear the monster will attack.

And these are just some fast possibilities I threw on here. There are even more possibilities well beyond just those 6, but a comprehensive list would fill the entire forum page at the least.

 

37 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

if you were asked if that felt villainous or heroic what would you say?

Depends on why my character was doing it.

 

38 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

what has sally done that warrants us attacking her?

There is nothing compelling you or anyone else to attack her. You could just leave her be swimming in the lake.

[Luminara]

13 minutes ago, Rudra said:

There are different means of approaching this.

1) Your character sees a monster swimming in the lake and moves to attack it just like with any other monster moving around a zone.

2) Your character sees a monster swimming in the lake and moves to drive it off before it comes across any people and attacks them for any/some reason.

3) Your character sees a creature swimming in the lake and moves to drive it off before the Tuatha de Dannan, Firbolg, or most likely Red Caps kill it for any reason.

4) Your character sees a myth swimming in the lake and moves to make contact with it or attacks it to make sure your character isn't hallucinating the encounter for some reason.

5) Your character sees a myth swimming in the lake and moves to kill or capture it to show everyone it really exists.

6) Your character sees a monster swimming in the lake and launches a preemptive attack for fear the monster will attack.

 

7) Your character heard Sally make a yo momma joke.

[shortguy on indom]

• AGREE WITH OP THEME, BUT EVEN STEVE AUSTIN MADE FRIENDS WITH BIGFOOT AFTER TEARING HIS ARM OFF.
•  

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I think it's just a neat little easter egg (or it was anyway) that refers to an old bit of American pop culture.

I'm more inclined to think most players would think of Nessie rather than Champ or any of the other American water monsters, but yeah.

[mistagoat]

[PeregrineFalcon]

45 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I'm more inclined to think most players would think of Nessie rather than Champ or any of the other American water monsters, but yeah.

You're right that it refers to Nessy of Scotland. By American culture I was referring to the tons of constantly televised Big Foot and Loch Ness Monster 'documentaries' that were very popular during the 90s in America. And speculation on the retail forums that this is why the devs included Sally, and the easter egg that she was targetable and had an associated badge.

 

Sorry, I should have explained that better in my last post.

[Mystoc]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Well, before this thread gets locked....

 

 

There are different means of approaching this.

1) Your character sees a monster swimming in the lake and moves to attack it just like with any other monster moving around a zone.

2) Your character sees a monster swimming in the lake and moves to drive it off before it comes across any people and attacks them for any/some reason.

3) Your character sees a creature swimming in the lake and moves to drive it off before the Tuatha de Dannan, Firbolg, or most likely Red Caps kill it for any reason.

4) Your character sees a myth swimming in the lake and moves to make contact with it or attacks it to make sure your character isn't hallucinating the encounter for some reason.

5) Your character sees a myth swimming in the lake and moves to kill or capture it to show everyone it really exists.

6) Your character sees a monster swimming in the lake and launches a preemptive attack for fear the monster will attack.

And these are just some fast possibilities I threw on here. There are even more possibilities well beyond just those 6, but a comprehensive list would fill the entire forum page at the least.

 

Depends on why my character was doing it.

 

There is nothing compelling you or anyone else to attack her. You could just leave her be swimming in the lake.

I agree with most of what you are saying but the last part, you get a badge which is also connected to accolade and is deemed heroic. I said nothing about felling compelled to do this I will do for the accolade it just feels more villainous then heroic to me that is all.

 

if they want to spin it has your harmlessly shooing Sally away the badge description should be changed right now it does not reflect this head cannon, which I do like and agree sounds less villainous.

Edited 19 hours ago by Mystoc

[Rudra]

24 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

I agree with most of what you are saying but the last part, you get a badge which is also connected to accolade and is deemed heroic. I said nothing about felling compelled to do this I will do for the accolade it just feels more villainous then heroic to me that is all.

 

if they want to spin it has your harmlessly shooing Sally away the badge description should be changed right now it does not reflect this head cannon, which I do like and agree sounds less villainous.

To start: the devs aren't spinning anything with Sally. My best guess is that to make sure players actually see Sally and have something verifiable for credit towards a badge for her, they made her a target that must be struck. That strike causes her to sink beneath the waves. That is a defeat for her. Any spin on the matter is provided by us players as we justify why our characters would do such a thing. It can range from non-RP such as "I just wanted the badge" to whatever RP reason the player deems appropriate for their character. So to that end, we defeat Sally and we get the badge. Any head canon or spin is entirely up to us players to provide.

 

If you want the badge description changed rather than the task changed like you asked for in the OP, then you need to state that you would like the badge description changed. And I will guarantee that there will be players opposed to that because regardless of why you strike Sally, you still defeated her (in causing her to flee). I won't argue against the badge description being changed. I don't care enough either way. You will run up against players that don't want the badge description changed every bit as (possibly) fervently as you do want it changed though. So brace yourself for that if you choose to pursue that route.

[Display Name]

I'm getting that badge if I have the opportunity.  It doesn't matter about the name, or description.  Or even how I feel about it.  But I'm not addicted to badging.  I can stop, anytime.

[El D]

Much as the badge mechanics are arranged purely by in-engine constraints (it's a defeat badge, so something must be defeated to track it), Sally's perception in-game is odd in-general. The idea of the lake monster somehow being seen as the real myth in a zone populated with murderous fey, pumpkin men, storm witches, and moss-covered reindeer-wookies all from Celtic mythology feels really strange.

 

Making Sally's badge be reward for vicinity and keeping her an event spawn with a timed route seems like a solid solution. It'd nix any quibbles about hitting her, allow easier badge acquisition for players, and remove a bit of the weird idea that she's somehow the most unbelievable part of Croatoa. 'Yeah, that's Sally. We have weekly sighting excursions planned on the university campus. Sometimes heroes come by and give her snacks.' makes more sense than 'Oh man, you got a picture of the mysterious Sally? After punching her in the face? I'll add this to all the others photo evidence we have and still continue to not believe she exists.'

 

Actually, thinking about that, just make it so using /e cameraphone or /e camera near her gives the badge. That feels like a fun alternative for folks who don't want to smack the peaceful dinosaur.

Edited 18 hours ago by El D

[Bionic_Flea]

I've suggested a solution to the Sally brutality:

 

1) Make an NPC that talks about Sallie and offers you a temp power that takes the form of the olde timey camera.

 

2) Make Sally immune to all damage except the flash from the camera.

3) Now that you have photographic proof, you are a Believer! (and are awarded the badge)

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

Can we please not have the back and forth arguing about each other and instead talk about whether Sally is a poor, defenseless plesiosaur, a ravaging monster that needs to be put down, or a mere speed bump in the race to get all the badges.

 

Thanks.

 

B.E.T.E.O.

Edited 17 hours ago by GM_GooglyMoogly

[biostem]

20 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

3) Now that you have photographic proof, you are a Believer! (and are awarded the badge)

But... But... the badge says you defeated her...  🤪

Edited 17 hours ago by biostem

[Display Name]

19 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I've suggested a solution to the Sally brutality:

 

1) Make an NPC that talks about Sallie and offers you a temp power that takes the form of the olde timey camera.

 

2) Make Sally immune to all damage except the flash from the camera.

3) Now that you have photographic proof, you are a Believer! (and are awarded the badge)

That sounds pretty freakin' awesome!  And it's more "true-to-life."  Because I haven't heard of people attacking Nessie.  Or if I have, they were forgettable.