Rip vs Homage

[Scarlet Shocker]

We get many many threads - and have since I've been a forumite, both on live and in the various successors that basically start; "How can I make XYZ character?"

 

There'll be discussions of power sets, costume options, pool powers, origins (one of the few times that origin in this game has an actual impact, which I find interesting.)

 

There will also be many admonitions based on "please for the love of all that's holy, just don't" and I'm very much in that camp so you will understand I have a certain bias in this thread.

 

I hide my bias unashamedly for several reasons. The first is simple pragmatism. That is the best and fastest way to get the game shut down and the game's history shows that. The second is that... putting it politely it's boring. I can read comics about a guy who gets angry and turns into a green rage monster. I watch the movies (avidly I must add) and I've even played the games on occasion but those are less satisfying to me. But those stories, those characters... we know them because of their deeds written by others. We know them because their creators gave us a great fantasy gift that we love and cherish and take to our hearts.

 

Before comics there were myths, legends, heroes of might and magic and even holy books. Perseus, Thor, Jesus are all great tales of morality and heroism in the face of adversity but they are created to dictate a tale to us, to give us a way to think rather than to think for ourselves. If we create those characters as replica we have nothing more than a simulacrum, homunculus, or more bluntly a cheap ass clone. That is dissatisfying on many levels, because we don't have our own story, nor do we have licence to create our tale for ourselves because ultimately we are handed the character from the hands of another. We are not in control and anything we do with a character here is going to be a tiny imprint in a macro image.

 

But I do have sympathy with the idea that we are inspired by another tale and want to bring that (or something close) into our world. After all, we  are all about stories, and stories of great heroes, deeds and world shattering events. So we look at that and think, what if...?

 

I get that we love comics and heroic fiction and the costume creator gives us great options to create our favourite comic characters in the game. I've made great versions of Darth Vader, Moon Knight, Dr Doom and many others, just to see if I can and they look fantastic. But then I look at them again and think much as I enjoy the stories of Marc Spector, Logan or others that I love (and I do tend to prefer more left-field characters I admit) I recognise they ain't mine.

 

What if I want them to be mine? That's the question. What if I want to take the story of a comic/hero I love and admire and make it my own?

 

Concept is everything. Hulk is not original. It's simply a retelling of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, but done in a more modern age (actually fewer than 75 years after the original and we're almost that far ahead of Hulk.) And that tale itself reflects Gilgamesh and Enkidu, one of the earliest stories known to man. So you don't have to be original. In the 21st century that's very difficult and many would think it's crap because it has little or no context in which to frame it.

 

But what if you find a character you really love and want to make it your own? How does that process work? What do you do? Where is the origin? What are the power sets?

 

here is a character I've just created. It stemmed from a bit of word play, teaming with a good friend, plus a bandying of ideas. I will not tell you who the homage is to, I leave you to guess. I will say there is no input from Alan Moore.  But it was clear to me that he was a vegetative character. Plant based and not exactly a warrior. So he had to look very plant-like in the costume creator (why is there not a mobile version of that? #rhetoricalquestion)

 

Here's the origin story I wrote:

Quote

Crey get into some shitty business sometimes. Few knew that better than Dr Eddie Parris, working in their clandestine lab in Croatoa.
Well, you know there's that whole nature thing going on, not to mention the fact that he's got a huge number of samples of Devoured Earth, Rikti and a piece of material, not quite bone, not quite wood, reputed to be a piece of the legendary Eochai.
His career is stalled, he's going nowhere, stuck in a dead end part of Paragon and precious few options to get out. An experiment or two on the side, searching for the next super human thing.
Forced to quit, home and office searched. They didn't know about the samples he'd hidden and the access to the forgotten lab in Port Oakes.
Then the knock at the door from Vanguard...
Swallow the pills, stick the needle in the arm, hold your breath and then... RUN
5 Vanguard operatives dead, of course it never made the news but there's a new fugitive on the run trying to reclaim his humanity and do the right thing.
Or maybe not!

 

Yes, that's very janky because that's his bio in game and I'm at my character limit (is that a pun?)

 

That's my homage - but I hope sufficiently different to anything anyone's got in print with a (C) symbol to ensure that I won't get genric'd nor will our beloved game be imperilled.

 

But I know what trumps all of the above: I get to write his story. I get to decide what his future path holds. I can mould it to my whim. I can take external events and decide what happens to him, how he evolves, is he going to be a hero, villain or something in between.

 

And nobody's ever going to look at him and think "meh, Batman clone"

 

So where, in your mind does that line cross? Homage vs rip? What makes your character original to you?

[tidge]

10 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

Here's the origin story I wrote:

 

Crey get into some shitty business sometimes. Few knew that better than Dr Eddie Parris, working in their clandestine lab in Croatoa.
[...]
Swallow the pills, stick the needle in the arm, hold your breath and then... RUN

 

 

And nobody's ever going to look at him and think "meh, Batman clone"

 

 

 

[Scarlet Shocker]

I can see why you went there but that genuinely wasn't in my mind!

 

The name is a clue but I'm afraid in this instance it wasn't that Eddie

Edited Thursday at 09:06 AM by Scarlet Shocker
name

[UltraAlt]

8 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

So where, in your mind does that line cross?

 

We know that the line is wishy-washy here so I don't want to really type about this too much.

 

Clearly, the red line is closed when you make a character that looks like the character and has the same name.

And we know we can get pretty close to looking like a great many comic book characters.

As far as the name goes, even if there are spaces, no spaces, or numbers mixed in that is going to cross the line.

 

8 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

Homage vs rip?

 

A big green guy in purple pants and no shirt is obviously going to get someone in trouble. I have seen far too many of these over the years.

I have no idea what color pants Red Hulk wears.

 

Change the color scheme, the name, and the bio and you can head into homage country.

 

It is easier said then explained.

Give me a (one) character (just one. I'm just going to make one) and I'll make a homage that I think won't be considered a rip, but close enough that it will "feel" like you are playing the same/similar character.

 

As far as homage goes, I would kind of say that Nightwing (Dick Grayson) is a homage to Robin (Dick Grayson).

Nightwing is also kind of a parody of Batman as it was a name that Superman used when he and Jimmy Olsen (as Flamebird) ran around as superheroes in the bottled city of Kandor.

Apparently in some continuity variation, Nightwing was actually some historical Kryptonian hero that was like Batman. Superman told Robin about it and that is why he decided to use the name for himself.

 

Red Robin, however, is a restaurant chain (founded 1969).... and, yeah, a DC character (created 1996) .. named after the restaurant chain? The comic book creators probably will never tell.

[Stormwalker]

I tend to keep my homages fairly distinct.  Some of this is the roleplayer in me: I want my characters to be their own characters, with their own stories; they just make little nods to the existing character.

 

Kitten America is never going to be mistaken for Steve Rogers, even though her name and certain elements of some of her costumes (one has a blue top with a star on the chest, another mimics his boots and gloves) are clearly intended as references., and there are some minor nods in her backstory as well.  But aside from a certain degree of idealism, a belief that her nation is still capable of being a force for good even if it sometimes fails in that calling, and and a desire to inspire that very goodness in its people, she's a very different person.

[Go0gleplex]

While I'm not motivated by any bias, I'm very much in agreement with Shocker in general. I try very much to stay away from any of the existing comic/manga literature in terms of my toons in looks, name, and story tag both because it's a rule so that the legal beagles stay away from the game and out of simple respect for the IP of the originators. That said however, the genre being what it is, there is always going to be some toon somewhere that will be similar enough in design and concept that comparisons to said IP protected characters is simply unavoidable and can fall victim to the overzealous rules-lawyer-types running around without their chill pills. 😉 lol  

 

It's fine to be a fan of a comic/manga character...but it's always better for the game to be as original as possible with your own and avoid visits and/or nasty-grams from the LIB (Lawyers in Black). 😄 

[BasiliskXVIII]

I try to stay away from the direct references to comics, but I don't deny that there's a few which are inspired by some of my favourites. Sherd, for instance, my Psi/Shield scrapper found a magical potsherd and gained the ability to make psionic constructs with them. Replace "potsherd" with "ring" and "psionic" with "hard light" that's just Green Lantern. But, his costume looks nothing like GL's, he's a Scottish archaeologist, and in every aspect other than the most simplistic breakdown of the character, there's very little tying the two together.

 

In general, that's where my personal line is - a kind of Watchmen-like reintepretation of the character is fine, but much beyond that I would feel is cheesy. Even a case like Deadpool vs. Deathstroke I feel would be too close, even though they've developed into very different characters since.

[TheMoneyMaker]

Rip Homage sounds like a good character name.

[Crasical]

For me, the line is when 'This doesn't feel like it belongs in the setting'. Which, considering City of Heroes is a Super Kitchen Sink setting WITH multiverse travel, you kind of have to go out of your way to do.

 

The three pillars are name, costume, bio, with name and bio being the more egregious ones.

 

Like, what bothers me isn't that you have a Power Girl Homage, with similar costume, it's that you NAME THEM Power girl (Power.girl, PowerfulGirl) and state that they're 'From the planet Krypton'. (Or, bafflingly as I observed once in the wild, from *Praetorian* Krypton.)

 

If you do the diligence of taking a character's backstory and saying 'okay, so what would that look like in the city of heroes universe' and adjust it accordingly, I'm much more likely to say 'Oh, you're doing a wolverine-style character, neat.' and here is the amazing part: I will think you're clever instead of being a hack.

 

I do have characters that are openly homages of other characters I like, and at least one huge rip, but I try not to make them be immersion-breaking.

[JasperStone]

16 hours ago, Crasical said:

Like, what bothers me isn't that you have a Power Girl Homage, with similar costume, it's that you NAME THEM Power girl (Power.girl, PowerfulGirl) and state that they're 'From the planet Krypton'. (Or, bafflingly as I observed once in the wild, from *Praetorian* Krypton.)

 

If you do the diligence of taking a character's backstory and saying 'okay, so what would that look like in the city of heroes universe' and adjust it accordingly, I'm much more likely to say 'Oh, you're doing a wolverine-style character, neat.' and here is the amazing part: I will think you're clever instead of being a hack.

 

I do have characters that are openly homages of other characters I like, and at least one huge rip, but I try not to make them be immersion-breaking.

 

I had a Supergirl/Power Girl homage named Power Lass ....

After being part of many copyright infringement discussions here, I shelved her to think about what to do.

...

I renamed her Colleen Powers. Colleen translates in Irish to girl/woman. 

Powers ...duh

 

Rewrote her bio to include; "Not part of that super family. So none of that green stuff of any kind works on me."

 

I tweaked her costume. I do like the White T-shirt, skirt, gloves, and cape, but I have other costumes that I mainly use.

 

In my head ... Supergirl

In game ... Colleen Powers.

 

Edit to add: I only have about 500 characters. This is my only homage of any kind.

 

 

Edited Friday at 03:53 PM by JasperStone

[ZemX]

17 hours ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

Rip Homage sounds like a good character name.

 

It would need a costume that manages to pack a good four or five rip-offs into a single costume.  Maybe a claws/regen brute, cigar, huge, spiky hair, green skin, purple cape with mystic insignia, big iron rocket boots, blue and red spandex pajamas... hmm....

[Mopery]

A week does not go by where I don't see a few (Cyclops, Wolverine, Storm, Phoenix, etc) clones in AP at some point.

I kind of get the wanting to see if you can, I once made a flying mammal variant called Onomatopoeia Man who goes around yelling "Pow! Blam! Kpang!" and other similar outbursts...

But most of the time, my characters are my own original ideas.

[srmalloy]

51 minutes ago, Mopery said:

A week does not go by where I don't see a few (Cyclops, Wolverine, Storm, Phoenix, etc) clones in AP at some point.

At least they got forced to be a bit more subtle about it after the Marvel suit; I got tired of seeing what felt like half the characters you pass by being Claws/Regen Scrappers named "xXxWolverinexXx" or some minor variation thereof.

[Octogoat]

Claws/Regen minotaur Bullverine omg what have I said ...

[DoctorDitko]

Another approach is to spread the love around. I have a modest example here:

 

Rocketed from a distant planet, young L'kell was blasted by cosmic rays en route to earth. Landing, he was adopted by a kindly couple who were caretakers at a secret monastery. They raised him to believe in truth and justice, but were murdered by evil ninjas. The sympathetic monks trained him to the peak of physical prowess, but he was restless and decided to seek his fortune at sea. His ship was hijacked by pirates, but he learned their ways, rose in their ranks, and eventually retired to Paragon City, where he was bitten by a radioactive superhero. An attempted cure infused him with a super-soldier formula, causing a latent mutation to manifest. Donning a costume inspired by his father's pyjamas, he became the hero known as...
Contrived Origin Man!

[ZacKing]

On 3/6/2025 at 5:24 AM, UltraAlt said:

A big green guy in purple pants and no shirt is obviously going to get someone in trouble.

 

What if they're a Bots MM named "Dr. Megabot"?  Green skin and purple pants is a very loose criteria to use to "get someone into trouble".  I wouldn't even consider someone with green skin and purple pants a violation of any kind.  This is where context is important.

 

A character with green skin and purple pants named Hulk with a bio that references being a rage monster created by getting caught in a gamma bomb explosion?  Yup, that's a violation of the rules.  Just having green skin and purple pants?  Nope.  Depends on several other factors.

[AmeliaHealYa]

I promise I'll re-name Number 47 tonight.

[Doc_Scorpion]

5 hours ago, JasperStone said:

Edit to add: I only have about 500 characters. This is my only homage of any kind.

My one homage traces almost every detail back to the original character - but it's very non obvious (deliberately so, she's my character, not theirs).

@ZacKing has it right though.  Whether something is a rip or a homage can get complicated.

There's way too much HWFO every time this topic comes up.

[Ironblade]

7 hours ago, JasperStone said:

Edit to add: I only have about 500 characters. This is my only homage of any kind.

 

I've done a few homage characters - BUT - they're homages to original characters that other people made in CoH.

In Paragon City, Marvel and DC don't exist.  But there are heroes all over the place so that's where I find inspiration for homages.

[DoctorDitko]

Honestly, most of mine are direct imitations... of characters I used to play in TTRPGs.

Ah, bright college days! How I miss 'em!*

 

 

* c.f. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl3mRjydcPw

 

[Scarlet Shocker]

you could get someone like Starlight from the Boyz to sprinkle fairy dust all over a giant green rage monster and then he'd be Star Spangled Banner

 

I'm here all week!

[tidge]

On 3/6/2025 at 5:57 PM, Crasical said:

The three pillars are name, costume, bio, with name and bio being the more egregious ones.

 

I agree about the pillars, although I think name and costume are typically more egregious. Some folks write-up a bio, some don't. This is not to say that I haven't seen a character with an obvious costume and name from an existing property that also had a bio that could have come from a comic-book wiki.

 

I have a couple of characters that I created after inspiration from another IP (or a remix of more-than-one). Names are right out, and using obvious non-clever names isn't really my thing. If the costume isn't close... pretty much no one should care. If the costume is close, and the name I choose echoes (even slightly) I'll write a bio that makes it clear (at least in my head) that this character is its own thing.

 

When inspired by another IP... I tend to gravitate towards slightly more offbeat choices than "four-color comic books", and for me the challenge is more about finding an AT/power-set combination that can channel the feels more than trying to copy a costume and name.

[Stormwalker]

19 hours ago, DoctorDitko said:

Honestly, most of mine are direct imitations... of characters I used to play in TTRPGs.

Ah, bright college days! How I miss 'em!*

 

 

* c.f. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl3mRjydcPw

 

 

Amusingly, one of my characters is basically an old MUD character (Elf Ranger)... not a copy of that MUD character, but the actual same person, who ended up in Paragon City because of, as she puts it, "stupid wizards doing what stupid wizards do, which is meddling with forces they don't understand." 

 

Of course, in-game she doesn't have all the abilities she ought to have (she's an Archery/Ice blaster whose pool selections will fill out some of the other types of magic she ought to have on tap).

 

She's one of several characters I have who are from outside context (other worlds or other universes - and some of them aren't sure which) and have gotten pulled into Paragon by its weirdness magnet tendencies; I find the outsider perspective creates an interesting headspace for the character.  I do this in other games, too... probably half of my Skyrim characters were not from the Elder Scrolls universe.