Saga Mode

[biostem]

10 minutes ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

"greater build diversity" seems like another way of saying "let me skip powers no one wants". I'm not sure saga system is the right way to describe what you're asking for, and it seems pretty obvious from all the replies that what you're asking for isn't exactly a popular idea.

While not a perfect comparison, if you have access to Champion Online's "Freeform Slots", you can basically pick and choose whatever powers you want, from any power set/category, (with some pre-requisite restrictions), and let me tell you, it results in very boring "tank mages", which can endlessly spam the equivalent of high-tier blasts.  It's no different, IMO, than enabling cheat codes - fun at first, but becomes boring quickly and you lose interest.  Now, the time period between "oh wow this is so cool" to "now I'm bored" will vary from person to person, but without the sense of "earning" those higher-tier power, or having to make decisions with at least some ramifications, helps connect you to that character...

[battlewraith]

19 minutes ago, biostem said:

While not a perfect comparison, if you have access to Champion Online's "Freeform Slots", you can basically pick and choose whatever powers you want, from any power set/category, (with some pre-requisite restrictions), and let me tell you, it results in very boring "tank mages", which can endlessly spam the equivalent of high-tier blasts.  It's no different, IMO, than enabling cheat codes - fun at first, but becomes boring quickly and you lose interest.  Now, the time period between "oh wow this is so cool" to "now I'm bored" will vary from person to person, but without the sense of "earning" those higher-tier power, or having to make decisions with at least some ramifications, helps connect you to that character...

 

This is an odd perspective to me as someone who plays this game. I would say that for most of the players I encounter, running the content that I run, the point is exactly that--to make a tank mage. The notion of cycling through the leveling process for what might be the hundredth time (if not more) in order to connect to the character...what?

 

This is for people that get an idea for a character. They plan it out in MIDs. Then they grind whatever they need for that character, make it, and then test it out to see if it meets expectations. They've purchased expensive IOs, gotten the incarnates they need, and then blast the crap out of stuff. People are not bored with tank mages. They are bored with lowbie mission content that the majority of players routinely skip over. 

 

The point is not to make an OP character. Anyone who knows what they're doing has that already. The point is to add some novelty to the early content and give this type of player an incentive to actually play it. 

[Frozen Burn]

  

7 hours ago, battlewraith said:

You're missing the point of the proposal. It's not about testing a build. It's about injecting some new life into those earlier levels. Instead of PLing or grinding the umpteenth scrapper the traditional way, use this to experiment with weird combos. Make wacky experimental builds. If it gets to the point where it's not working out, go to the trainer and just switch back to a normal build slot and respec into a normal build. 

 

Nope, I get the proposal, but again, rearranging power order doesn't inject life into the game or those early levels - it's the same content but you'll just more easily walk through what you've already called too easy / not challenging.   And you did state "Usually when I play this game it's about testing out a build idea."  Hence, my response:  at lower levels you'll walk through anything you do and at upper levels, you're basically the same as you would be anyway.  So, while I do respect your opinion and suggestion - there doesn't seem to be much use or value for this system other than the cosmetic gimmick that ALSO does present an unbalance at the lower levels.

 

7 hours ago, battlewraith said:

I suspect HC means different things to different people. The suggestions forum is literally for that: suggestions. If you don't like it, fine I heard your objections. But you and other people need to stop directing people you don't agree with to other servers. Your out of line. 

 

Most certainly!  🙂  Clearly, I like the content, where as you prefer more of the systems (AE, arena, building, etc).  Both are valid.  And it's not that I don't like your idea - I'm neither for or against it.  Within the paradigm of the HC server, you've yet to come up with a reason for this idea other than "I'm bored with low level content" and "I want a new gimmick" that might make the HC team actually take the idea seriously.  

 

And yes, the suggestions forum is exactly for what you did.  I am fine with your suggestion and respect your opinion as stated above.  But please also realize, I am just trying to help you find what you want because it is very unlikely that the HC team will implement let alone even entertain your idea.  I am only trying to assist you by explaining some of the possible reasoning as to why HC might not entertain your request, and also help you by pointing you in a direction of other servers that would do / currently do what it is you are suggesting so that maybe you can find the enjoyment you seek.  

 

I am sorry you feel that someone pointing you in a direction that may help you get what you want is "out of line."  When I see someone trying to put a square peg into a round hole like you are here, I want to help - even if that means directing them to another server where they may get to enjoy the type of gameplay they are seeking.  

 

Good luck to you.  🙂  

Edited March 12 by Frozen Burn

[biostem]

1 minute ago, battlewraith said:

The point is to add some novelty to the early content and give this type of player an incentive to actually play it. 

Except it won't have that effect - it'll only serve to have people ROFL-stomp that low level content, if they don't just PL said character instead.  The O.G. devs have already made fitness inherent and lowered the level and requirements to take a travel power, in an effort to further empower low-level characters, and that still didn't get people to consistently run low-level content...

[battlewraith]

6 minutes ago, biostem said:

Except it won't have that effect - it'll only serve to have people ROFL-stomp that low level content, if they don't just PL said character instead.  The O.G. devs have already made fitness inherent and lowered the level and requirements to take a travel power, in an effort to further empower low-level characters, and that still didn't get people to consistently run low-level content...

 

I don't think that's completely true. I do periodically play lowbie characters just to get a feel for them and I think these changes encourage that.

 

As for people ROFL stomping the lowbie content--yes. They would. And they would probably jack up the difficulty until they leveled to a point where the early advantage was nil. Would you prefer that they PL instead? Look at all the lowbie content that is largely unused. Redside, Goldside, etc. Why not let people ROFL stomp it if that's fun for them?

[battlewraith]

4 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Why do you only respond to the people who disagree with your idea? You clearly don't like it when people disagree with your idea, but then when someone posts that they like your idea and asks a question you ignore that post.

 

"Does that seem right to you?" - Jubal Early

That's most likely because of having to respond to multiple posters. If I ignored a question, it's probably because I just missed it or forgot about it.

[biostem]

Just now, battlewraith said:

I don't think that's completely true.

It doesn't need to apply to everyone and under all conditions, but it will happen.

 

1 minute ago, battlewraith said:

Would you prefer that they PL instead?

This isn't an either-or scenario, though.  It's not like a significant proportion of players are saying "if only I could get my T9 pet *now*, I wouldn't PL ever"...

 

2 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Look at all the lowbie content that is largely unused. Redside, Goldside, etc. Why not let people ROFL stomp it if that's fun for them?

Unfortunately, "it's fun" is not a good enough reason to throw out any semblance of balance, progression, or the weight/cost of having to invest in that character and work up to those "good" powers...

[lemming]

7 hours ago, JasperStone said:

It is not about initial design philosophy. It is actual code.

This, until we get a redesigned respec, this idea won't work.

[Troo]

10 hours ago, ZacKing said:

Again, your idea is granting access to powers that the content within the level range isn't designed for.  That's breaking the game no matter how you slice it. 

 

Didn't this already happen with the powers shuffle we already saw on Homecoming? Though, definitely not to the extent being discussed here.

 

-------  --  -------

 

Of course there would be limitations with the OP suggestion.

 

It seems like there is a little glimmer of something with potential.

 

Would it be a mistake for a low level character to select a long recharge power super early.. probably. Especially if they are only using SOs.

Could there be an issue with players later exemplaring down and having powers slotted up, but even then, without IO set bonuses..

 

 

[Rudra]

19 minutes ago, Troo said:

Would it be a mistake for a low level character to select a long recharge power super early.. probably. Especially if they are only using SOs.

Could there be an issue with players later exemplaring down and having powers slotted up, but even then, without IO set bonuses..

We can have two (three?) builds. Make one build where you have your nuke fully slotted with SOs and any relevant powers to keep it available frequently like Hasten at like level 10, and make the other build conventional. Since most IO sets won't work below level 17 anyway, and even the sets and generic IOs that can be used by players below level 17 are going to be inferior to SOs at those levels anyway, the proposal is a win/win for max power at all levels.

 

Edit: And since the player would just be using sets on the end game build anyway, there isn't even the argument of exorbitant cost for maintaining two builds worth of enhancements, because with even as many enhancement slots thrown into the first 22 levels of powers at max enhancement slots for each power, the player would still only be spending on SOs for that build, so only the end game build sinks the player's inf'. While still maintaining max power for those first 22 levels of powers that can be chosen from T9s, pools, and epics.

 

Edited March 13 by Rudra
And again to add "levels of".

[Troo]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

We can have two (three?) builds. Make one build where you have your nuke fully slotted with SOs and any relevant powers to keep it available frequently like Hasten at like level 10, and make the other build conventional. Since most IO sets won't work below level 17 anyway, and even the sets and generic IOs that can be used by players below level 17 are going to be inferior to SOs at those levels anyway, the proposal is a win/win for max power at all levels.

 

Are you suggesting folks would flip between builds to activate different powers? Maybe using the /select_build command? (I think there is a timer lock on that)

 

I don't think a low level character is able to impact their stats with SOs to the same degree a high level character can exemplaring down with set bonuses and uniques. 

 

Note: Plenty of set bonuses and uniques work well below your stated level 17. (see examples below)

• "The Set Bonuses of Purple Sets never shut off due to exemplaring more than three levels lower than the level of the IOs (which are level 50)."
• "Archetype Origin set bonuses for standard and superior enhancements will operate down to level 1."
• "If it's a PvP Special IO, it will never turn off from exemplaring."
• "Winter Origin set bonuses for standard and superior enhancements will operate down to level 1."

 

 

 

[Rudra]

12 minutes ago, Troo said:

Are you suggesting folks would flip between builds to activate different powers? Maybe using the /select_build command?

Uhm... yes, I am. Depending on whether low level or end game. Am I saying that is bad? Not in the slightest. Am I saying it wouldn't be a hindrance? Absolutely.

 

13 minutes ago, Troo said:

(I think there is a timer lock on that)

It's 15 minutes. So about a TF or so. So not really a problem.

 

14 minutes ago, Troo said:

I don't think a low level character is able to impact their stats with SOs to the same degree a high level character can exemplaring down with set bonuses and uniques. 

Each equal level SO grants a +33.33% boost. Pump them up to +3s and they grant +38.33% boost. And since the character would be up against low level spawns with their low damage, low hit points, and low damage resist; the whole set bonus consideration isn't really a concern because just using SOs at low levels will delete mobs with ease without really putting the character with the full 67 available assignable enhancement slots all placed on the level 22 and lower powers in any danger.

 

17 minutes ago, Troo said:

Note: Plenty of set bonuses and uniques work well below your stated level 17. (see examples below)

That's fine. Like I said: "most sets". Not all sets, most.

[battlewraith]

I think I said something to this effect earlier but let me reiterate--I'm not expecting them to be able to do something like this, just in terms of having people available to do it.

If the code doesn't allow for it--I get that. But the point of making suggestions, for me, is about indicating the general type of thing I want. It might be that, in the future, they do an overhaul of the respec code and something like this becomes available. At which point maybe they would consider something like this. 

 

What I would like to see these devs do is move past this mode of just trickling in new sets, maps, loot etc. For me, this is just more of the same. People burn through it and then go back to alting. 

 

The point of this idea is to offer an option for players to interact differently with content that is already available. Moreover, it's to make that content interesting to people who are inclined to skip over it. 

 

The non-technical objections to the idea make no sense in light of how people actually play this game now. No, not how everybody plays, but how a significant portion does.

They skip over this content. On Excelsior, even PI teams will take in lowbies and let them soak up double xp. If you can just cut this content out of the progression, it's bizarre to claim that this change is breaking that content. Furthermore, the usual caveats apply:

 

If you don't like it, simply don't do it. I still haven't done Hardmode content.

If you don't want someone with that kind of character on your team, don't have them. It's no different than saying 50+ only or something like that.

 

If you want to preserve the sacred path of traditional, balanced leveling that you've done for two decades there is absolutely no reason why you can't do that. How quickly other people earn xp is not a legitimate concern here at all--this would be gimpy PLing at best and only for the early levels. I suspect that the real concern is that people would like this idea and that hardliners would look lame in comparison but c'est la vie? Don't give in to fear my friends. You're made of sterner stuff than that.

[JasperStone]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

I think I said something to this effect earlier but let me reiterate--I'm not expecting them to be able to do something like this, just in terms of having people available to do it.

If the code doesn't allow for it--I get that. But the point of making suggestions, for me, is about indicating the general type of thing I want. It might be that, in the future, they do an overhaul of the respec code and something like this becomes available. At which point maybe they would consider something like this. 

 

What I would like to see these devs do is move past this mode of just trickling in new sets, maps, loot etc. For me, this is just more of the same. People burn through it and then go back to alting. 

 

The point of this idea is to offer an option for players to interact differently with content that is already available. Moreover, it's to make that content interesting to people who are inclined to skip over it. 

 

The non-technical objections to the idea make no sense in light of how people actually play this game now. No, not how everybody plays, but how a significant portion does.

They skip over this content. On Excelsior, even PI teams will take in lowbies and let them soak up double xp. If you can just cut this content out of the progression, it's bizarre to claim that this change is breaking that content. Furthermore, the usual caveats apply:

 

If you don't like it, simply don't do it. I still haven't done Hardmode content.

If you don't want someone with that kind of character on your team, don't have them. It's no different than saying 50+ only or something like that.

 

If you want to preserve the sacred path of traditional, balanced leveling that you've done for two decades there is absolutely no reason why you can't do that. How quickly other people earn xp is not a legitimate concern here at all--this would be gimpy PLing at best and only for the early levels. I suspect that the real concern is that people would like this idea and that hardliners would look lame in comparison but c'est la vie? Don't give in to fear my friends. You're made of sterner stuff than that.

 

This is a Suggestion AND Feedback forum.

You post a suggestion, and you get feedback

Trust me, I have posted suggestions that got burnt to the ground. But the feedback was correct.

 

You have not listened to the input. 

It is more than a "respec code".

It is the code of the game

Or in the terms of  CoH ... spaghetti code. Imagine the worst server room ... now make it worse, and you would be there.

 

If the "trickling in" of new sets etc. bothers you  ... join the Volunteer Staff.

 

There is no sacred path, as you state.

As well as the concern for people really liking it ... no.

 

 

 

 

[battlewraith]

8 minutes ago, JasperStone said:

If the "trickling in" of new sets etc. bothers you  ... join the Volunteer Staff.

Why? So that the trickle marginally increases?

And yes, I get that the code is a mess and difficult to work with--not the point.

If every suggestion here was met with 1. the code doesn't allow it. 2, go to another server 3. join the volunteer staff

what is even the point of having this subforum?

 

You're right, this is a place to get feedback. But I would be a lot more concerned with generic, stale responses than wacky pie-in-the-sky ideas.

[ZacKing]

7 hours ago, Troo said:

Would it be a mistake for a low level character to select a long recharge power super early.. probably. Especially if they are only using SOs.

Could there be an issue with players later exemplaring down and having powers slotted up, but even then, without IO set bonuses..

 

No IO set bonuses is a flimsy attempt to give the illusion that this "saga mode" is somehow balanced.  It isn't.  Once again, its opening up access to powers at level ranges the content at those level ranges is not designed or balanced for.  No set bonuses will serve no purpose other than to go back to "the old way" of using various pool powers and such to fill gaps as we all did prior to the invention system.  It's nothing "new", just a rehashing of the old.

 

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

What I would like to see these devs do is move past this mode of just trickling in new sets, maps, loot etc. For me, this is just more of the same. People burn through it and then go back to alting. 

 

This is a volunteer team doing this in their spare time who graciously allow us all to log in.  They are under no obligation to allow any of us here.  As for "not making content fast enough", that's something that professional game development companies struggle with and can't accomplish.  That includes the original developers of this game. 

 

 

[ZacKing]

1 minute ago, battlewraith said:

If every suggestion here was met with 1. the code doesn't allow it. 2, go to another server 3. join the volunteer staff

what is even the point of having this subforum?

 

Not every suggestion made here over the years has been met with these responses, just the ones that really are difficult/not feasible to do given the code restrictions, is an idea already implemented on another server or requires anyone to join the volunteer staff.

[Seed22]

1 hour ago, ZacKing said:

 

Not every suggestion made here over the years has been met with these responses, just the ones that really are difficult/not feasible to do given the code restrictions, is an idea already implemented on another server or requires anyone to join the volunteer staff.

Yeah see no. Almost every suggestion HAS been met with the “its too difficult/code doesn’t allow it” bullshit.

 

So much so it translates to, “I don’t like this idea so i’m going to try and shut it down with this statement”.

 

I personally don’t agree with this idea, but since I and  none of you know this code base, I will refrain from saying specifically it is too difficult to do. 
 

I do know however that this wouldn’t move the needle. OP, what you’re trying to target but indirectly is trying to refresh the low level gameplay loop. But that’s the thing; you can’t. 
 

Not without major gameplay overhauls, which I doubt will occur. The loop itself is antiquated compared to a lot of modern day MMO experiences. Even WoW offers a more interesting leveling experience and had to revamp its low level experience a bit. 
 

Not impossible, but I doubt it would happen.

Edited March 13 by Seed22

[golstat2003]

On 3/11/2025 at 6:06 PM, battlewraith said:

 

I don't post something like this with the expectation that it will happen. For me, it's about expressing the type of thing I would like to see implemented.

If the idea and the rationale behind it is clearly expressed, there might be a point in their development cycle where something like that becomes possible. 

 

Fair enough, but my broader point is that I don't think it's realistic to expect this any time soon. If you're fine with no seeing anything like this for 10 years (or more), then sure. lol

[battlewraith]

37 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

No IO set bonuses is a flimsy attempt to give the illusion that this "saga mode" is somehow balanced.  It isn't.  Once again, its opening up access to powers at level ranges the content at those level ranges is not designed or balanced for.  No set bonuses will serve no purpose other than to go back to "the old way" of using various pool powers and such to fill gaps as we all did prior to the invention system.  It's nothing "new", just a rehashing of the old.

 

It literally has not existed before. So it would actually be new. And it would be more flexible in terms of power selections than what has been done in any point in the past. And yes, the enhancement restriction is a balance on the overall game, just not the brief early level range.

And again, you're dodging the question. The early game was not balanced for this--SO WHAT? People routinely skip over this content, which is the fastest to level through anyway. Why would it be preferable for that to be the case than for experienced players to have the powers they want when they want them in these early levels. 

If you don't want to do it, simply don't.

 

45 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

This is a volunteer team doing this in their spare time who graciously allow us all to log in.  They are under no obligation to allow any of us here.  As for "not making content fast enough", that's something that professional game development companies struggle with and can't accomplish.  That includes the original developers of this game. 

 

Yes, that should be assumed. Thus the suggestion that they implement changes that breathe life into existing content rather than labor to produce new sets, missions, etc. all the time. 

 

49 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Not every suggestion made here over the years has been met with these responses, just the ones that really are difficult/not feasible to do given the code restrictions, is an idea already implemented on another server or requires anyone to join the volunteer staff

 

The vast majority of ideas people post here are not going to be implemented, for reasons already discussed. So by this logic, I could just reply "they're busy, that's probably not going to happen" to pretty much any suggestion and it would be equally as legitimate. If someone came here from another game and said "this other game has a great feature we should do here", I could just suggest that they go play that game. The point of posting here should be about ideation, not a perpetual feasibility study. 

[battlewraith]

11 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

Not impossible, but I doubt it would happen.

Yeah I doubt it too. But I see no reason to refrain from making the suggestion. The regulars here shoot down most things, even QOL or cosmetic changes, so aim high. You got nothing to lose.

[golstat2003]

Just now, battlewraith said:

Yeah I doubt it too. But I see no reason to refrain from making the suggestion. The regulars here shoot down most things, even QOL or cosmetic changes, so aim high. You got nothing to lose.

 

Posting that an idea is difficult, why it wouldn't work, why someone doesn't like it, or why one shouldn't expect it anytime soon if ever, is NOT shooting down a suggestion.

 

The title of this section of the forums is Suggestions and Feedback.

 

That Feedback part includes feedback on suggestions.

 

People can make every and all suggestions. People CANNOT make a suggestion and expect to never get any negative feedback (including "this is a bad idea").

[battlewraith]

9 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

Fair enough, but my broader point is that I don't think it's realistic to expect this any time soon. If you're fine with no seeing anything like this for 10 years (or more), then sure. lol

It's more likely that there will be an environmental catastrophe and we'll all be dead. But weird things happen! 

 

[battlewraith]

4 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

People can make every and all suggestions. People CANNOT make a suggestion and expect to never get any negative feedback (including "this is a bad idea").

The feedback is typically rote. It's the same people, saying the same things, pretty much all the time.

Given the circumstances, anything I would want is going to be seen as a bad idea. This was true on live as well, but there was a much larger population and variety of people. 

Before a certain goblin comes in here and starts complaining that I'm dictating what others are allowed to do, I'm not. I don't care. 

But if you give feedback on an idea, I'll comment on it. A lot of it comes across as bias or poorly reasoned in light of how the game is actually being played by people.

I know that there are constraints that make things unlikely. I'm just talking about an idea. 

[Excraft]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

It literally has not existed before. So it would actually be new. And it would be more flexible in terms of power selections than what has been done in any point in the past. And yes, the enhancement restriction is a balance on the overall game, just not the brief early level range.

 

You're still selecting the same powers from the same sets, so there's nothing new here other than the order you're picking them.  You're reshuffling a deck and trying to say its a different deck, but it isn't.  It's the same deck.

 

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

And again, you're dodging the question. The early game was not balanced for this--SO WHAT? People routinely skip over this content, which is the fastest to level through anyway. Why would it be preferable for that to be the case than for experienced players to have the powers they want when they want them in these early levels. 

 

This is a nonsensical argument.  Why bother with levels and progression at all then?  Just let people pick all their powers, slots and enhancements right from the start since balance isn't an issue.  Once again, the progression of power and levels is a core aspect of the game and the incentive to keep playing it.  Throwing that all out and saying "it's NEW!" isn't fixing anything.  It's just breaking the game.  And no, that's not "dogma", it's the code.

 

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

Thus the suggestion that they implement changes that breathe life into existing content rather than labor to produce new sets, missions, etc. all the time. 

 

Adding in the WST system is what got people to play content at varying levels.  If you are looking to "breathe new life into old content", a far better suggestion is to expand the WST to include story arcs as well, not just TFs/SFs/Trials.  As far as producing new power sets, new missions, new zones etc., those things are new.  Saga mode definitely isn't.