MassivelyOP's Game News Website mentioned HC regarding Toxic Positivity

[Seed22]

19 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

There was a lot of it on closed beta. Assume it's still the case.

It is, definitely.

[ScarySai]

3 hours ago, tidge said:

think the choice of "toxic" as the adjective for "positivity" reveals a lot about both preconceived beliefs and the limited vocabulary of the (blog) author.

 

No, it's actually a pretty widely accepted term for blind/ignorant positivity to a fault.

[arcane]

At the end of the day, this term is designed to deride people for having a certain opinion and implies that said people couldn’t have arrived at said opinion in good faith (obviously without any evidence of bad faith). In other words, it’s a word used to smear those we disagree with, as we’ve already established.

 

Personally, there’s a silver lining to these kinds of dishonest words existing. That silver lining being: it helps one to quickly identify people with bad intentions. Like, no matter who you align with, I’m sure we can all think of some political buzzwords where all credibility is thrown out the window the second you read that word in an article. That kind of thing.

Edited Friday at 02:26 PM by arcane

[ScarySai]

[arcane]

28 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

I’m sorry you’re exasperated. I wish everyone would just agree with me too. But apparently you get pushback when you decide to shit all over people you don’t like. It’s the way of the world. We will be okay. Maybe.

[WuTang]

In the absence of an actual problem, one is inevitably invented. 

[lemming]

I've regarded "toxic positivity" with stuff like "I don't want to hear a problem unless you have a solution" type things.   Or just think good thoughts and the problems go away type stuff.

 

I think there's a wide range of types here that labeling the whole is not going to have any sort of accuracy.

[Fira]

Eh, I think everyone here seems to have a different view of what it is. So i'll add my 2cents.

To me Toxic Positivity is not being blissfully clueless, the term "Toxic" is important.

Some said that calling something "Toxic Positivity" is belittling people, and that's important, because to me it's exactly the core of the problem... in the opposite way.

 

If I'm in a team and i randomly say "Damn Howling Twilight is so loud it saturates my speakers" and I get answered "I'm just happy to play the game :)", my immediate reaciton is "What?"

If I do the same, and THREE people in the team answer that way, I just die a little inside.

And when this happens 30 times in two weeks... Well... Maybe it's just me, but I feel it as downright patronizing and oppressive. Makes you reconsider where you're playing quickly. Even if this is just oversensitization on my part for getting so affected by it, I think you can agree it is blatant of some sort of deep, DEEP community mindset problem.

 

Also, some have mentioned the dev team. To me the main factor of it is, in fact, not Homecoming. Despite Homecoming's moral high ground and pedestal, it doesn't come one TENTH of the height of the fabled "dramatic City of Heroes shutdown" one. I'll rant about Homecoming things constantly, but to me, the HC team *actually* has nothing to do with the majority of this problem.

 

[AmeliaHealYa]

9 hours ago, Healix said:

 You must remember that this game is nothing more than an electronic version of an elementary school playground; it is full of good kids, bad kids, bullies, cheaters, and whiners.

If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.

This is 100% true, and while it sounds bad, really, it's just humans being human. We're wired to never be satisfied. We adjust to any circumstances, no matter how luxurious or deprived, but we always see what about those circumstances could change for the better. It's not a bad quality, even though it's often an annoying one.

 

Good luck finding the clip, but Paul Ballard (Tahmoh Penikett from Battlestar Galactica) summed it up perfectly in the pilot of DollHouse:

 

"No one has everything they want. It's human nature. When you get what you want, then you start wanting something else."

 

(That's right, DollHouse references in 2025. I have my finger right on the pulse of popular culture.)

[PeregrineFalcon]

9 minutes ago, lemming said:

I've regarded "toxic positivity" with stuff like "I don't want to hear a problem unless you have a solution" type things.   Or just think good thoughts and the problems go away type stuff.

"Toxic Negativity" is a relatively new term. It means constant negativity which can end up driving people away from the forums and the game. "Toxic Positivity" was a term that was coined later to push back against that, and it basically means what you'd think it means. Constant positivity which can end up driving people away from the forums and the game. Yes, I'm sure most of you already knew this but, based on some of the posts I've read in this thread so far, clearly some of you do not.

 

I've been on forums, and subreddits, where players attacked other players for having the unmitigated gall to post a bug report. Wherever there's a group of players who constantly attack anyone who has anything negative to say about the game, even when it's valid criticism, that's toxic positivity. The kind of over the top, constant defense of the devs and the game, even when it's clearly unwarranted, and especially when that poster never criticizes the game or the devs, ever. That kind of crazy, and obviously disingenuous, behavior aggravates people and drives them away. That's why it's "toxic", because it poisons your community.

 

And no, toxic positivity is not disagreeing with suggestions that are hot garbage "I think the devs should give everyone a free nuke that recharges every 15 seconds!", it is being attacked by a dozen posters when you post "I'd like to see the devs fix this bug" or "I was on the test server, and here's why I don't like this change. . ." When it happens all the time and it's always the same group of people that's when it drives people away from your community, and that's when it's toxic.

 

And yes, that used to happen a LOT on this forum. Fortunately, most of those folks have calmed down quite a bit, so I wouldn't say it's much of an issue here anymore.

[JMacClear]

Hmmmm... let me recap as a new player.

 

A "free game" with a Free Download.

 

No Micro Transactions or subscription fees.

 

Very modest fundraising goals to essentially keep the servers running. No CEO-level Salaries are supported at these levels. 

 

Slow but incremental improvements with no 'digital content' purchases required.

 

For a game that is 'beloved' by many hundreds or thousands who were very very disappointed to see it end circa 2014.

 

For a game that is beloved by many many new players who enjoy the opportunity.

 

And of course a large dose of gratitude towards the persons who made it happen from the people who enjoy and love the game.

 

--

 

This is deemed "Toxic Positivity" ? 

 

George Carlan (Comedian - deceased) often mocked such stupid inane usage of the English Language... and in this example we have such a perfect asinine misuse.

 

If the BLOG/E-mag author did not / does not enjoy the : (i) game (ii) forums (iii) Discord ... fine you are entitled to your opinion.  I do enjoy it and obviously many others do.

 

--

 

If you don't enjoy any one or all aspects - say it plainly....  "I don't like what I think is forced rules of conduct praising the game / server / devs" 

 

Then go away because you obviously do not enjoy it and leave it to those of us that do. Perhaps you like Conan or Warcraft. Well don't worry you  will not see me there because their culture and rules of conduct.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited Friday at 05:20 PM by JMacClear

[arcane]

12 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

That's not what 'Toxic Positivity' means.

 

It's what you've seen me refer to as the "Dev Defense League." That group of players who defend the devs with the fervor of a long unrequited crush, and will attack and insult people who post any kind of negative feedback even when we're giving feedback in the feedback thread started by a dev asking for feedback. They insist that everything's perfect or, if it's not, then it certainly isn't the dev's fault and how dare you bring up anything that's anything less than 100% worship of the devs. Don't you know that making games is hard? The devs are unpaid volunteers and you get to play the game for free so how dare you!

 

You get the idea. And you know who I'm talking about.

To address you, my PoV is that there is a lot of “the devs are a volunteer team btw” and “I think this feature is fine as is”, but beyond that this feels like a bit of hyperbole. And I never liked the DDL term either.

 

That being said, (1) it’s been awhile since we’ve had a big beta patch to argue about so it’s quite possible my memory is fuzzy and (2) you have presumably been on the receiving end of this stuff and are thus more likely to have some bad memories of it than I am. So, I’m not saying you’re wrong about what you’ve experienced, but this new term still seems like bullshit to me. As does every other term that follows the format of “toxic _______”. I’m open to reviewing past examples but I don’t see that rabbit hole as necessary.

[AmeliaHealYa]

2 hours ago, arcane said:

At the end of the day, this term is designed to deride people for having a certain opinion and implies that said people couldn’t have arrived at said opinion in good faith (obviously without any evidence of bad faith). In other words, it’s a word used to smear those we disagree with, as we’ve already established.

 

Personally, there’s a silver lining to these kinds of dishonest words existing. That silver lining being: it helps one to quickly identify people with bad intentions. Like, no matter who you align with, I’m sure we can all think of some political buzzwords where all credibility is thrown out the window the second you read that word in an article. That kind of thing.

I feel like this is needlessly reductive. I recommend that you spend less time dismissing what others are saying out of hand and more time actually listening and trying to understand what they're trying to communicate.

 

Regardless of whether or not it exists here, toxic positivity is a very real thing. The environment in which I have most often encountered it is work. A former manager loaned some of us a copy of a horrible book he championed called something like The Energy Bus. The central premise of the book, and of the culture at that company, was that anyone who complained at all about anything was the problem, and the Real Problem was never the issue that they had raised. As far as they were concerned, the only thing that ever needed fixing was an individual employee's attitude.

 

(It was darkly satisfying after I left that company to read about my former coworker who'd been promoted getting hauled into both civil and criminal court, and to watch the CEO get skewered in Congressional hearings. I'm so glad I'm out of that industry entirely.)

[Aracknight]

[arcane]

2 minutes ago, AmeliaHealYa said:

I feel like this is needlessly reductive. I recommend that you spend less time dismissing what others are saying out of hand and more time actually listening and trying to understand what they're trying to communicate.

 

Regardless of whether or not it exists here, toxic positivity is a very real thing. The environment in which I have most often encountered it is work. A former manager loaned some of us a copy of a horrible book he championed called something like The Energy Bus. The central premise of the book, and of the culture at that company, was that anyone who complained at all about anything was the problem, and the Real Problem was never the issue that they had raised. As far as they were concerned, the only thing that ever needed fixing was an individual employee's attitude.

 

(It was darkly satisfying after I left that company to read about my former coworker who'd been promoted getting hauled into both civil and criminal court, and to watch the CEO get skewered in Congressional hearings. I'm so glad I'm out of that industry entirely.)

(1) Some posters on this forum have been antagonizing me and insulting me for a span of several years. Their sheer hatred for me couldn’t be more obvious. So, while there is merit to your first paragraph, I don’t really intend to extend grace in this scenario. I’d just get the same big fat middle finger from these folks either way.

 

(2) Okay, so maybe it can exist. But perhaps, if toxic positivity really exists, we can prove it with receipts rather than smear with insinuations. If posters are just going to use this term as a baseless insult rather than an argument, I’d say the term is still bullshit in this case.

[AmeliaHealYa]

Just now, arcane said:

(1) Some posters on this forum have been antagonizing me and insulting me for a span of several years. Their sheer hatred for me couldn’t be more obvious. So, while there is merit to your first paragraph, I don’t really intend to extend grace in this scenario. I’d just get the same big fat middle finger from these folks either way.

 

(2) Okay, so maybe it can exist. But perhaps, if toxic positivity really exists, we can prove it with receipts rather than smear with insinuations. If posters are just going to use this term as a baseless insult rather than an argument, I’d say the term is still bullshit in this case.

Well thanks for at least meeting me halfway. Sorry to hear that you've been treated so poorly. I'd be on a hair trigger too.

[arcane]

Just now, AmeliaHealYa said:

Well thanks for at least meeting me halfway. Sorry to hear that you've been treated so poorly. I'd be on a hair trigger too.

Don’t feel too bad for me; I do bite back a smidge. But yeah that’s the state of things from my perspective.

[PeregrineFalcon]

2 minutes ago, arcane said:

(2) Okay, so maybe it can exist. But perhaps, if toxic positivity really exists, we can prove it with receipts rather than smear with insinuations. If posters are just going to use this term as a baseless insult rather than an argument, I’d say the term is still bullshit in this case.

Oh it exists alright, and you know it does. And you know that I, of all people on this forum, can bring receipts. And you also know how long I'll be banned from the forum if I do.

 

But, as I said, it's died down quite a bit in recent years.

[Aracknight]

I experience toxic positivity at work, hence my slogan above.

 

The definition I generally adhere to is:

 

 

While the first part is arguable both in intent and in observation,  I can absolutely vouch for the effects of the second part.  Not necessarily in CoH per se, but generally.

[KiseraiU]

3 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

I experience toxic positivity at work, hence my slogan above.

 

The definition I generally adhere to is:

 

 

While the first part is arguable both in intent and in observation,  I can absolutely vouch for the effects of the second part.  Not necessarily in CoH per se, but generally.

It is a good definition, and absolutely a real thing. I previously worked as an investigator of companies that provided support people with disabilities and can say that, left completely unchecked, it can lead to people not talking about problems, which leads to people not reporting concerns to avoid being "the problem" by speaking up, which leads to failure to report neglect/abuse...which hopefully needs no further explanation as to why it's bad. 

 

The stakes are definitely lower in a video game but yeah, it happens and I have seen some red flags that it is happening here. 

 

Even if criticism is often incorrect, be very wary of any environment where criticism gets a reflexive argument for why it's wrong. That reflex is unhealthy. 

[BurnTheWitch]

Man, I am too long winded. . . Incoming. . . 

 

• Sure, I'm likely too positive about this game. Let's do some math.

Spoiler

                                                               Amount of enjoyment or utility I get from that service

Positivity about a Product or Service = ------------------------------------------------------------

                                                               Price of that service, whether it be in privacy or money

 

Using this equation we can see that Homecoming sort of breaks the math, all it wants is my e-mail address and doesn't harvest my data or charge me (Any donations I make literally means that while I am increasing the numerator, I still feel I get good value).  Because our denominator (the bottom number) is so small, I would likely be positive even with a reasonable numerator (the top number). Even if I only got a little enjoyment or utility, the positivity would be rather high, but I get a lot of enjoyment (not much utility to be honest), so positivity is very high.  

• From the article

If I had to pick one set of MMOs where this comes up a lot, it’s Kickstarter MMOs, and I think there’s an obvious reason for it: Once people have skin (money) in the game and have made it part of their identity, they feel obligated to defend it because they’re really defending their own choices.

 

This is a sunk cost fallacy, I could write an article about cryptocurrency by taking this one and changing the names of MMOs to various meme coins and it would still be accurate.  

 

Chris Neal (@wolfyseyes.bsky.social, blog): There is most definitely an easy answer in Star Citizen, but I’ve also felt a bit of this toxic positivity – or at least something near enough – out of the folks who get behind City of Heroes: Homecoming quite a bit. Apparently a game that old and run by players absolves it of all sins to some people.

 

Nope, It just absolves it of sins like dated graphics and things that the current Dev team had nothing to do with.  I can still hate on the original Devs for the oddity that is the incarnate system.  How much am I paying the Devs again? See point 1 and show some appreciation.  I do habitat for humanity and you'd better believe that no one has ever complained about a house we built for them, even if they didn't like the flooring.

 

• In Conclusion

Yep, clickbait article that isn't saying much, much less understanding what it is saying.

Edited Friday at 05:16 PM by BurnTheWitch

[arcane]

33 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Oh it exists alright, and you know it does. And you know that I, of all people on this forum, can bring receipts. And you also know how long I'll be banned from the forum if I do.

 

But, as I said, it's died down quite a bit in recent years.

I’m not saying you’re lying. But I (1) sometimes say “TL;DR” instead of reading novel-sized posts and (2) smoke too much weed. So, no, I genuinely can’t think of a valid example of toxic positivity on this forum off the top of my head.

 

EDIT: I am certain you’ve been on the receiving end of insults over this issue because insults fly every which way over anything contentious on this forum. I just don’t have a specific instance I can recall. I’m sure I could study some old open beta focused feedback threads and find examples.

Edited Friday at 05:31 PM by arcane

[WuTang]

Toxic Toxicity is the ultimate new toxic. 

[Skyhawke]

On Taco Tuesdays, I'm positively toxic.

[Scarlet Shocker]

How can it be that bad when it got @Snarky to leave AND come back?