CoT defense debuffs?

[Uncle Shags]

Super Reflexes has loads of defense debuff resistance. But a second ago in a 54x8 CoT radio mission my SR tank's health dropped really low, really fast, so after trying not to panic and gobbling greens I looked at my defense and it was 35%. That's a drop of 15% from just my stats, and the team of 8 at the time was adding more defense on top of that. I checked, all my toggles were active, and it quickly jumped back to normal levels.

 

What happened? 

 

Are there CoT def debuffs that ignore resistance?

 

The only other thing I can think was that there was confusion and one of my teammates had a power that landed on me.  But shouldn't that have been resisted?

 

Thanks

[Snarky]

you already know.  Defense Debuffs exist.  CoT uses that stuff.  how much defense debuff res you got?  100??? mostly their stone mages but a lot of their cheesy minions throw  debuff def...

Edited yesterday at 12:50 AM by Snarky

[Wavicle]

The obvious ones are Quicksand and Earthquake, but there are others as well.

Edited yesterday at 12:55 AM by Wavicle

[Uncle Shags]

19 minutes ago, Snarky said:

how much defense debuff res you got?  100??

95. Which is a LOT! I think that's too much res to allow what happened. That's my theory, anyway.  Something else is going on.

 

I tried the build out a LOT on test server before I actually built him for real.  Against, Cimerora, Arachnos, Carnival, and CoT - multiple groups at once.  Defense debuffing was never an issue.  Defense dropped by a couple percent at most.  This time it was only 1 group and it dropped double digits.

 

I guess I'll go in and try to replicate it.  Maybe there was one particular boss that I hadn't seen before, but I tested against over a dozen CoT groups total, I bet.  Maybe it was multiple Quicksands.  Do those pulse and stack the -def?

 

But hey, you know what wasn't in my testing? Other players getting Succubus confused....  I think my teammates tried to kill me!  A friggin' defender dropped some -def crap on me.  I'll put money on it.

 

[MonteCarla]

Did the CoT or any of your teammates have +To Hit? 
That can rip through SR's defence and ignores defence debuff resistance.

[Wavicle]

22 minutes ago, MonteCarla said:

Did the CoT or any of your teammates have +To Hit? 
That can rip through SR's defence and ignores defence debuff resistance.

 

Many of the fire Demons have Invincibility, for example. Some of the mages cast Fortitude on their allies.

[Snarky]

57 minutes ago, Uncle Shags said:

95. Which is a LOT! I think that's too much res to allow what happened. That's my theory, anyway.  Something else is going on.

 

I tried the build out a LOT on test server before I actually built him for real.  Against, Cimerora, Arachnos, Carnival, and CoT - multiple groups at once.  Defense debuffing was never an issue.  Defense dropped by a couple percent at most.  This time it was only 1 group and it dropped double digits.

 

I guess I'll go in and try to replicate it.  Maybe there was one particular boss that I hadn't seen before, but I tested against over a dozen CoT groups total, I bet.  Maybe it was multiple Quicksands.  Do those pulse and stack the -def?

 

But hey, you know what wasn't in my testing? Other players getting Succubus confused....  I think my teammates tried to kill me!  A friggin' defender dropped some -def crap on me.  I'll put money on it.

 

You may be right. It may be a statistical anomaly.  Or… it could be a problem you have with that makeup of CoT mobs.  I hope you figure it out.  But an all DEF build has this problem sometimes. Which is why Invul is so popular.  I run Dark Armor, which walks backwards compared to everything else…

[Uncle Shags]

I got it to happen again.  Solo 54x8 CoT.  Only once for a few seconds.  Couldn't see what it was.  Too fast and too panicky to stay alive. I'll see if I can tget it again and take a screen shot to look at all the debuffs. 

 

Whatever it is it's short duration and long cooldown.

 

I'm glad no one bet me on my confuse theory.

[Uncle Shags]

IDK...  I'm sick of testing.  I can't figure it out.  I could only get it to happen twice in an hour.  The closest I got was thinking it was a Succubus hitting me with Placate, Come Hither, and Blackclaw, but that doesn't really make sense, unless one of those or a combination of those powers causes an unresistable defense debuff. But I can't get hit with it often enough to see.

 

I'm over my head and giving up.

[Snarky]

6 hours ago, Uncle Shags said:

IDK...  I'm sick of testing.  I can't figure it out.  I could only get it to happen twice in an hour.  The closest I got was thinking it was a Succubus hitting me with Placate, Come Hither, and Blackclaw, but that doesn't really make sense, unless one of those or a combination of those powers causes an unresistable defense debuff. But I can't get hit with it often enough to see.

 

I'm over my head and giving up.

Defense is like that, unfortunately.  It is subject to a random “you made it past”.  When that is a def debuff attack it can cascade.  Yours us very strong with a strong debuff res, so cheers.  But that is the defense game. Simple, effective, and subject to the whim of RNG…

[SeraphimKensai]

8 hours ago, Uncle Shags said:

hey, you know what wasn't in my testing? Other players getting Succubus confused....  I think my teammates tried to kill me!  A friggin' defender dropped some -def crap on me.  I'll put money on it.

As a player if I get confused I always pop buildup/aim, 10 or so red inspirations and kill my teammates because it's role playing.

[Snarky]

2 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

As a player if I get confused I always pop buildup/aim, 10 or so red inspirations and kill my teammates because it's role playing.

Good grief!   Very good grief indeed.

[Mopery]

Streakbreaker strikes again?

[Psyonico]

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=circleofthorns.boss_succubus.blackclaw&at=boss_grunt
 

less need to do testing if you just look at CoD.

 

Blackclaw does -10% defense, but it is resistable.

 

I don’t feel like comparing CoD for every attack that does -def that CoT enemies have, but at level 50:

Magma Thorn Caster has 3 -def attacks

Succubus has 1

Master of Ruin has 3

 

 

If you want to see what the numbers those provide do, cross reference the HC wiki with CoD

 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Circle_of_Thorns

 

alternately, you could turn off your defense toggle, pop enough oranges to be at the resist cap, and let CoT wail on you.  Your DDR is all in SR passives, so you’ll see exactly how much -def each attack is doing and you’ll actually have a fair chance of getting hit.

[Snarky]

36 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=circleofthorns.boss_succubus.blackclaw&at=boss_grunt
 

less need to do testing if you just look at CoD.

 

Blackclaw does -10% defense, but it is resistable.

 

I don’t feel like comparing CoD for every attack that does -def that CoT enemies have, but at level 50:

Magma Thorn Caster has 3 -def attacks

Succubus has 1

Master of Ruin has 3

 

 

If you want to see what the numbers those provide do, cross reference the HC wiki with CoD

 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Circle_of_Thorns

 

alternately, you could turn off your defense toggle, pop enough oranges to be at the resist cap, and let CoT wail on you.  Your DDR is all in SR passives, so you’ll see exactly how much -def each attack is doing and you’ll actually have a fair chance of getting hit.

A lot of the little minions have -def.  That can add up.  Might be the only thing they add to the fight, stripping off defense from a Tank…

[Octogoat]

11 minutes ago, Snarky said:

A lot of the little minions have -def.  That can add up.  Might be the only thing they add to the fight, stripping off defense from a Tank…

Apes together strong?

[Andreah]

A while back, at the same time the 40+ council got their difficult buff, the CoT were buffed a little too. I don't recall the specifics, but I would nto be surprised if there was an autohit power or two in the mix.

[Uncle Shags]

Just to be clear, this isn't a slow trickle of debuffs. You can see the trickle taking effect in very small percentages. It typically a couple percentages lowered max.

 

37 minutes ago, Andreah said:

A while back, at the same time the 40+ council got their difficult buff, the CoT were buffed a little too. I don't recall the specifics, but I would nto be surprised if there was an autohit power or two in the mix.

I think this is kind of it.

 

This is a one shot deal.  BAM!  -15 defense whammy.  It seems like maybe not autohit, because it happens so infrequently, but I think if it lands the debuff is unresisted.

 

In the big picture, I suppose this is fine. I guess it adds an element of increased risk and difficulty to the game.  I was just hoping to figure out which power(s) are responsible so I can do something about it - aka target that dirty SOB first.  I'm trying to find it in CoD, but no luck yet.

[Burnt Umber]

I think your problem was the higher level "Master of Ruin" boss mages' Earthquake that is a not resistible -def de-buff.

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Octogoat said:

Apes together strong?

[Adeon Hawkwood]

One thing to keep in mind that I haven't seen mentioned is that the higher level Earth enemies have either Quicksand or Earthquake (depending on rank) which are auto-hit abilities. Getting a couple of them stacked on you is going to start pulling down your defense (even with high DDR) and once you're under the softcap you'll get hit by more of the regular attacks with defense debuffs as well.

[Octogoat]

16 minutes ago, Adeon Hawkwood said:

One thing to keep in mind that I haven't seen mentioned is that the higher level Earth enemies have either Quicksand or Earthquake (depending on rank) which are auto-hit abilities. Getting a couple of them stacked on you is going to start pulling down your defense (even with high DDR) and once you're under the softcap you'll get hit by more of the regular attacks with defense debuffs as well.

Cascade failure can happen to anyone in that situation.

[Doomguide2005]

     Interesting! 

     Well, we can all but rule out cascade failure.  Though if it were to happen it would almost have to be a Tanker with massive hit point totals.  Anything else is going to be dead long before anything truly resembling cascade failure happens as almost nothing reduces the DDR as far as I know.  To generate a defense debuff of 15% the target would have to be hit with a 300% totally debuff.  For an aggro cap's worth of foes (17 foes) that's over a 17% debuff by every single attack on the tanker and within the duration of those debuffs.  I have serious doubts about the ability of even +4 CoT to actually hit (or auto hit) our Tanker with that much resistable debuff.  It's never happened to my SR scrapper in some 400+ vet levels of running all sorts of missions including vs CoT but maybe.  Now we also have to keep in mind our Tanker needs to be affected by that much debuff if solo and maybe a whole lot more if the team as stated was adding to his defense.  It takes another 100% debuff to reduce our Tanker another 5% assuming DDR applies and isn't somehow being affected. 
     Next, we have them getting To Hit buffs.  Again, maybe but I've never seen that happen to my scrapper while solo or teamed which is unlikely unless I go all manic scrapperlocked ahead of the team, and that's never happened *cough*.  And while that would make it easier to hit the Tanker past his defenses with debuffs it would not alter his defense values in the slightest.  So that's not the change alone anyway.  
     Confusion.  Okay for the Tanker himself that's unlikely.  Focused Senses provides protection against Confusion effects.  I'm assuming his, as a Tanker, is stronger than my scrappers which is to say more than the -6 mag on my scrapper before any Tactics are factored in as Tactics also provides Confusion protection.  Or any other protection provided by the team in that environment.
     Or how about the momentary suppression of his toggles by overwhelming mez which maybe turns off his DDR from toggles for even a brief instant while he's standing in an absolute puddle of defense debuffs.  Even if his toggles almost instantly return for just that instant his DDR would drop by a very large amount (my scrappers, for instance, would drop to about 32% from 95%) and I'm guessing then gets hit by the debuffs he is standing in.  Of course, just turning off the toggles for an instant is also going to "debuff" his defenses.  I'm just surprised this has never happened to my scrapper.  It is far more likely to turn into a whiffing contest as they debuff the living crap out of my To Hit.  But who knows at this point.
 

[Uncle Shags]

23 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Well, we can all but rule out cascade failure

Agreed! I've been trying to get this point across, but it's not fully working. I just spent 45 min getting wailed on by hundreds of CoT and my defense drops by a couple points for normal attacks. It is NOT cascade failure.  Cascade failure is a real thing, I've seen it on my other tanks, but for SR it's a non issue.

 

But what DID happen is twice I dropped instantly to 35% from 50% defense.  And both times it was only with one particular baddie present.  Without their presence I stood and took a beating for long periods of time with no significant defense issues. There were other issues (I think mostly lots of +to hit because they were getting through more attacks than they should) but my defense wasn't budging.  But this ONE enemy blasted me twice with -15 defense.  It lasted for a few seconds, maybe 5-10, then was gone.  Unfortunately it was very brief, my wife was talking to me, and I was trying to survive by flailing on my keyboard, so I couldn't see what it was exactly, damnit....  But I know it was a.....

 

Ruin Mage!

 

I spent another half hour trying to get a Ruin Mage to get me with it again, but it didn't work.  It seemed like it was only on an initial alpha strike?  For instance, if I hit the elevator and went back after they calmed down it wouldn't happen again.  So obviously I need to get back in game, stop dicking around, and actually find the exact power.  But it's Friday dinner time and I've got 3 kids.  To be continued....

 

Thanks for all the help  This is kind of fun!

 

A reeeeeal...MYSTERY....

[Uncle Shags]

Ok, so I snuck away and I was able to hit it without distraction.  Mystery solved!

 

Earthquake is it!  It seems to be autohit, ignores defense debuff resistance, and lowers defense by 15%ish rather than the 10% it's listed as in CoD. That 5% difference threw me off earlier when it was suggested as the culprit.

 

I think another part of the challenge was they don't cast it very frequently. It might be something they use only on first contact.  Standing around, waiting for them to cast again didn't seem to work.

 

Aha!  Case closed! Solution: Get the heck out of the Earthquake zone if your survival depends on defense!

 

Booya. I feel like Columbo.

Edited 9 hours ago by Uncle Shags