Focused Feedback: Powerset - Plant Control

[Uun]

31 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Did you mean on beta?

Yes, the dominator version on beta has a 60s recharge. 

[Nathic69]

I play plant for damage with some control , I play illusion for damage yet illusion remains untouched when it breaks the game, you can't nerf powers in plant while illusion exists the way it does.

 

Just revert the seed change and nerf creepers by 30% and call it a day, it doesn't need to be made useless, now plant has no identity 

[GM Impervium]

Just a reminder to everyone to point your feedback at the DEVS, and try not to argue amongst each other. I'll be hiding some of the argumentative posts.

 

[ScarySai]

25 minutes ago, skoryy said:

Okay, so why should plant be able to skip so many skills when other control powers can't?

 

Why is skipping skills that are not useful an argument here? Before this patch dropped I skipped mass hypnosis on my mind/dark and could outclear most dominators on it. Now I'd consider it mandatory.

 

I could make the same argument for so many sets, and the answer is because the set has good powers and performs well in spite of its poor structure.

 

If spore cloud was worth taking on live, people would take it. If spirit tree wasn't useless, people would take it. If vines worked like it does now, people would probably take it. Every build choice is weighing at least one power against another.

 

Yet, the net sum of these buffs does not outweigh the collosal destruction of set identity the nerfs bring with them. If I want to play a displacement heavy set with a strong sleep, confuse and an aoe hold, why would I EVER play plant over mind literally ever? Theme? Plant had a theme and unique identity, you homogenized and murdered it.

 

If we're gonna bend over backwards over friggin beanbag, I think plant control could get a stay of execution and be fine.

 

 

Edited yesterday at 02:20 AM by ScarySai

[skoryy]

10 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Why is skipping skills that are not useful an argument here?

 

Because if you can skip everything but 2 powers in Plant but no other control set can do the same, that's not a balanced set.  And when I hear 'S+ tier' and 'my OP build needs all these extra powers' and 'its the only viable way to play in <insert mode here>', then you're not giving arguments against nerfing Plant.

 

You can have it two ways:

* Revert the Plant changes, but buff all the other control sets to match

* Nerf Plant

[ExeErdna]

I have used the new spore burst nothing will make it useful to me, why? I also play Elec and Arsenal which have the BEST sleeps in the game. Look at what Arsenal lacks Immo and the set works fine. Elec for the longest just doesn't do damage yet it's control was a swiss army knife and what it does it did grossly well especially once Elec Affinity gave it the safety it wanted. Not all sets are made to be equal if so make Ice's Arctic Air hit like Fire's Hot Feet. If sets were made to be equal Elec control could shock like the other offensive Elec's. Yet they knew that would make Elec Control TOO spicy. Elec control with Shock would be a dream to play. 

[ScarySai]

7 minutes ago, skoryy said:

Because if you can skip everything but 2 powers in Plant but no other control set can do the same

 

You take strangler, roots, seeds, carrion and fly trap on almost every plant build, with fly trap and roots being basically the only drops if you know what you are doing, and even then are oft too valuable to pass up.

 

I have quite possibly the strongest plant dom you can really make, and it has 5 power picks in plant. 

 

Where are you getting this from? Do you really think you can just spam seeds and afk while carrion does all the work? Good luck with that, gamer.

 

Again, I encourage people to play powersets before commenting on how to build them.

Edited yesterday at 02:35 AM by ScarySai

[Kriiden]

Not a fan of the Carrion Creeper changes at all...

[skoryy]

10 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Where are you getting this from?

 

The posts in this very thread saying there were all of two powers to take in Plant and forget the rest.

[ScarySai]

1 minute ago, skoryy said:

The posts in this very thread saying there were all of two powers to take in Plant and forget the rest.

 

They are the iconic powers, yes. You don't skip your hold, really ever on any control set, nor your aoe root, because it's typically objectively better than your single target root in every single possible way, unless it's a weird set like arsenal that just doesn't let you have that.

 

Before yesteraday I'd say skipping your aoe hold would be advisable depending on the set due to the low uptime, but that's probably not going to be the case anymore.

Edited yesterday at 02:45 AM by ScarySai

[ExeErdna]

5 minutes ago, skoryy said:

 

The posts in this very thread saying there were all of two powers to take in Plant and forget the rest.

 

That's because the t1-t3 are pretty much standard, you take those. Spore Burst gets in the way of taking a movement skill early and it's the weakest sleep still. Spirit Tree is skippable if you're playing faster since if you drop the tree only for the group to move on or they're chunking AVs you don't need the healing. Vines is also a standard AOE hold and I've stated it's the ONLY thing that needed to be buffed since how it works in beta now aligns better with how Entangling Aura and Choking Cloud works. It should drop enough mag to hold some higher tier enemies. t5 is often the set's first real BIG skill. Creepers is t8 is SUPPOSED to be good. Nerfing Creepers is like looking at Wormhole and going "you can't put knockback to knockdown in it anymore" People will just not use it. Which then makes it a skip. You NEVER want to nerf anything you want to buff what was lacking. 

[Greyhame]

So I spent a small amount of time testing a Plant/Psi permadom (fully IOd, +4/8) and a Plant/Time controller (no set IOs, much lower dif).  At first blush, this does seem functional.  My permadom had to work a bit more at surviving due to not CCing as well, which would probably get tiresome solo but matter much less on a team.  The controller was built for teaming in the first place, and will clearly be ok at that still.  He wasn't great solo in the first place, so hard to compare really.  All in all, I think the triple nerf is overkill but probably isn't as disastrous as it looks.

 

That said - I have concerns about this approach.  You are nerfing what I would call one of the few positive outliers in Control sets, which desperately need more damage capability and struggle to have a place in a game that has powercrept to the point that using damage & buff/debuff is almost always better than spending cast time on a control.  

 

Instead of fixing what's broken, this is closer to breaking one of the few things that didn't need a fix. 

[macskull]

41 minutes ago, skoryy said:

I'll add that anyone saying that control powers are useless in the endgame

It's not so much control powers, it's just that in the rare cases where CC is actually needed you can get enough from the other ATs on the team to where the presence of an AT with an entire powerset devoted to control is redundant. I don't need to bring a Controller or Dominator to a 4* LGTF for the Hami mission or K'Ong fight when every character on the team already has at least one hold to stack. Believe me, we tried - while the HM LGTF was still in beta we experimented with bringing various Dominators for the extra mez on the K'Ong encounter but eventually decided it the extra mez didn't make it faster or safer and it wasn't worth dropping a Blaster for.

 

People gravitated toward Plant Control because it was one of the few control sets that still let you feel like it was doing something on those teams. I suppose it remains to be seen if the upcoming Creepers change improves the situation substantially, but as it stands there is now one less option for players who want to play a Controller or Dominator on those sorts of teams without feeling like they're just along for the ride.

 

EDIT: I'd like to think I'm pragmatic most of the time, and I understand a full-scale rollback of these changes is extremely unlikely now that they've hit open beta, despite everyone and their mother warning the devs during closed beta. There has got to be a middle ground between where we were and where we are.

Edited yesterday at 04:03 AM by macskull

[ScarySai]

45 minutes ago, macskull said:

I'd like to think I'm pragmatic most of the time, and I understand a full-scale rollback of these changes is extremely unlikely now that they've hit open beta,

 

Wouldn't be the first time. Certainly would be welcome.

[Riverdusk]

1 hour ago, skoryy said:

 

 

 

EDIT: I'll add that anyone saying that control powers are useless in the endgame should take a look at the new way of keeping Paragon Protectors from going from superpowered to superannoying.  The devs know control needs endgame love and there's evidence now that's on their to-do list.

 

 

It is a nice change, but very much a baby step.  My electric sentinel can also neuter paragon protectors and actually has an easier time doing it, even up to 10 of them at once pretty easily.  No endurance = no mog. 

 

Almost every AT and probably the majority of powersets have control of some sort in them.   As long as other AT's have control powers, controllers should get damage.   No one is saying they should be super blasters.   That's an obvious straw man.  Edit: @macskull beat me to it on that point and made it better.

 

Anyway, the whole 'plant only depends on 2 powers' was always an obvious exaggeration.  The set had two 'set defining' powers maybe, but pretty much all control sets have that, not sure why plant gets singled out.  For earth control for example I'd say it is earthquake and stalagmites.   For illusion it is phantom army and spectral terror.  For gravity it is wormhole and probably singularity (it is the coolest and most unique pet), for fire it'd be hot feet and flashfire, etc.

 

For plant I always took at least 5 plant powers, typically I'd end up with 6 or 7 depending on secondary choice.   The only power that used to 100% be a skip every time was spore burst (sleep).   I always thought, why would I bother when creepers would just wake things up instantly even solo.  Yes, it is nice to see that one finally get a buff.  Just a shame they had to overnerf the set for it.

 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 05:06 AM by Riverdusk

[Riverdusk]

If devs are still open to suggestions as well and you're serious about making "underperforming" powers better, I have to say I'd still definitely like to see the single target immobilize powers (in the sets that get them) have their damage sped up or even made instant.  Especially with the mob health regen rates being cranked up, having a power that takes 9 seconds for it to slowly tic a small amount of damage is now pretty much worthless. 

 

Yes, sometimes I do take the ST immobilize powers (usually if sorcery pool arcane bolt didn't fit the concept, a power that is definitely better).

 

I tested on the beta server spamming entangle against a -3 boss and it basically did no noticeable damage to it.  Yes, a boss 3 levels lower than me (40 vs 37).   Also tested on live server against a -3 boss and honestly it didn't do much better, but at least it seemed to slowly, very slowly, whittle it down.

 

 

[Architect Conservator]

I am not good in numbers, but I played my plant controller and I must say the feel of it changed enormously.

The cause is probably a combination of the changes in Seeds and the Creepers. 

I defeat much slower now and cannot run the x4 missions I used to defeat easily any longer.

 

I have not proc bombed the creepers for clarity.

 

If this goes through I will have to fully respec this plant and I thoroughly dislike that.

[CaptSquid]

17 hours ago, Player-1 said:

 

Hello SakuraFrost,

 

While I was not the lead on this project, the goal is to make sure the entire powerset is useful and not concentrated onto select overtuned powers. This allows for more build flexibility among a variety of players who have different concepts for their Plant Control characters without shoehorning them into just two powers played a certain way. 

 

Seeds of Confusion had to be brought down a notch or two for the type of power it is. A lower tier cone power should not be outshining high tier AoE confuses in other control powersets. This nerf, while it stings, will allow for rebalanced encounters to work with multiple control powersets instead of having to always factor in this specific power.

 

Carrion Creepers were bugged where multiple powers activating within the patch overlapped and caused multiple procs to apply with every activation. This ballooned its strength up in a way that was not balanced due to a bug, and needed to be fixed. We are looking into ways to shore it up given the change, but from a base power perspective it is working as intended now (spawn bug aside). The other changes to Plant Control are intended to still let the powerset be strong as a kit, not just from two specific abilities.

Thanks for the insight on the reasoning behind the changes.

I’d like to ask a more philosophical question about design intent: do we actually know if the player base prefers powersets to have a wide variety of viable builds, or would many players rather have a few standout powers that define a set's identity, even if that means less overall flexibility?
 

From my experience, I can’t think of many powersets (controller or otherwise) where I’ve ever taken every power. Most players cherry-pick the strongest or most fun tools in the set, and that seems to be the norm across the game. So I’m curious why, in this case, Plant Control is being reshaped under the assumption that powersets should be evenly balanced across the board.
 

Is it possible that the uniqueness and strength of powers like Seeds of Confusion and Carrion Creepers were part of what gave Plant its appeal and identity? And if so, do we risk losing that identity by flattening the set in the name of flexibility?
 

I completely get the need to fix bugs and rein in overtuning where it breaks encounters, but I do wonder if some of the "overconcentration" on specific powers was less a problem and more just a reflection of what made the set feel different and desirable in the first place.
 

Would love to hear thoughts from others too, especially if people actually do prefer taking every power in a set when it's well balanced. I just don’t think that’s been the typical playstyle across most of the game’s history.

[arcane]

3 hours ago, Architect Conservator said:

If this goes through I will have to fully respec this plant and I thoroughly dislike that.

I don’t think anyone is going to avoid doing respecs this page, so I’d leave this argument out of it. But carry on.

[arcane]

1 hour ago, CaptSquid said:

Thanks for the insight on the reasoning behind the changes.

I’d like to ask a more philosophical question about design intent: do we actually know if the player base prefers powersets to have a wide variety of viable builds, or would many players rather have a few standout powers that define a set's identity, even if that means less overall flexibility?
 

From my experience, I can’t think of many powersets (controller or otherwise) where I’ve ever taken every power. Most players cherry-pick the strongest or most fun tools in the set, and that seems to be the norm across the game. So I’m curious why, in this case, Plant Control is being reshaped under the assumption that powersets should be evenly balanced across the board.
 

Is it possible that the uniqueness and strength of powers like Seeds of Confusion and Carrion Creepers were part of what gave Plant its appeal and identity? And if so, do we risk losing that identity by flattening the set in the name of flexibility?
 

I completely get the need to fix bugs and rein in overtuning where it breaks encounters, but I do wonder if some of the "overconcentration" on specific powers was less a problem and more just a reflection of what made the set feel different and desirable in the first place.
 

Would love to hear thoughts from others too, especially if people actually do prefer taking every power in a set when it's well balanced. I just don’t think that’s been the typical playstyle across most of the game’s history.

Personally? If someone claims that Seeds or Creepers are no longer unique or strong powers, I don’t accept that and think they’re being either untruthful or delusional.

[LastHumanSoldier]

Current beta creeper performance is quite bad and recognized as so by the dev team in this very thread.

 

You should compare it against live.

[CaptSquid]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

Personally? If someone claims that Seeds or Creepers are no longer unique or strong powers, I don’t accept that and think they’re being either untruthful or delusional.

The real question isn’t whether Seeds or Creepers are “still good” in a vacuum — it’s whether they’ll still be strong and unique enough post-patch for players to actually want to play Plant Control. Balance changes shouldn’t just flatten out outliers; they should preserve what makes a set appealing in the first place. If the result is a powerset that’s technically “balanced” but no longer stands out in any meaningful way, that’s not really a win.
 

A balance patch that makes a set less popular or less fun to play isn’t achieving good design. Players gravitate toward power sets that feel impactful, and removing or dulling their most iconic tools risks killing that appeal. That’s what people are concerned about here — not whether every power is numerically fair, but whether the set will still feel worth picking.

[arcane]

36 minutes ago, CaptSquid said:

The real question isn’t whether Seeds or Creepers are “still good” in a vacuum — it’s whether they’ll still be strong and unique enough post-patch for players to actually want to play Plant Control. Balance changes shouldn’t just flatten out outliers; they should preserve what makes a set appealing in the first place. If the result is a powerset that’s technically “balanced” but no longer stands out in any meaningful way, that’s not really a win.
 

A balance patch that makes a set less popular or less fun to play isn’t achieving good design. Players gravitate toward power sets that feel impactful, and removing or dulling their most iconic tools risks killing that appeal. That’s what people are concerned about here — not whether every power is numerically fair, but whether the set will still feel worth picking.

I think the appeal to play Plant Control is still there.
 

I think the only thing that’s changing in reality is Seeds and Creepers will no longer be easily two of the best powers in the entire game (think Phantom Army, Fulcrum Shift level stuff) and Plant Control will no longer be S+ tier.
 

To confuse that with the set being completely bad or undesirable would be an extreme exaggeration and would require a degree of dishonesty imo. 
 

And yes I still support a base damage boost to Creepers to soften the blow. 
 

Also, it’s good to hear people in this thread saying they actually want to use Mind Control for Confuse now. Problem solved! Sounds like more powersets are appealing now rather than less.

Edited yesterday at 02:22 PM by arcane

[LastHumanSoldier]

Plant still has the higest damage aoe immobilze.  Still kinda surprized it wasn't normalized.

 

I mean if your are trying to generalize the sets go all the way.

 

[Uun]

My take on the current iteration of Seeds:

• Recharge increased to 90s - Haven't actually been able to test this as the recharge for dominators on beta is still 60s, but I suspect it should be OK. I'm at 16s recharge now, so that would increase to 24s with the new recharge.

• Scale reduced from scale 20 to scale 12 - This is fine, still plenty of duration.

• Target cap lowered from 16 to 10 - This change is the most problematic. It's fine if you're soloing at x4, but the number of unaffected foes increases as you move to x8. Previously you could use Seeds as your only control on an entire spawn. That's no longer an option. I need to respec into Vines and Spore Burst to see how they pick up the slack. My concern is that these can't be used only on the foes unaffected by Seeds and will negate the confuse on the affected foes. 

The patch notes state that the recharge of AoE confuse powers is being standardized at 90s. Is the target cap also being standardized at 10?  Synaptic Overload now recharges in 90s and has a target cap of 10 (nobody is complaining because the new chaining mechanic is such a vast improvement over the version on the live servers). Smoke Canister recharges in 90s and technically has a target cap of 10, but it's a location AoE that refreshes as foes leave or are defeated.  Mass Confusion gets the new Adaptive Recharge and retains its target cap of 16. Having played all 4 sets, I think the Smoke Canister and Mass Confusion implementations are the best. If Seeds is going to have a target cap of 10, I would change it to a location AoE. Alternatively, keep the target cap at 16 but apply the Adaptive Recharge mechanic.