Focused Feedback: Powerset - Plant Control

[WindDemon21]

12 hours ago, macskull said:

It's not so much control powers, it's just that in the rare cases where CC is actually needed you can get enough from the other ATs on the team to where the presence of an AT with an entire powerset devoted to control is redundant. I don't need to bring a Controller or Dominator to a 4* LGTF for the Hami mission or K'Ong fight when every character on the team already has at least one hold to stack. Believe me, we tried - while the HM LGTF was still in beta we experimented with bringing various Dominators for the extra mez on the K'Ong encounter but eventually decided it the extra mez didn't make it faster or safer and it wasn't worth dropping a Blaster for.

 

People gravitated toward Plant Control because it was one of the few control sets that still let you feel like it was doing something on those teams. I suppose it remains to be seen if the upcoming Creepers change improves the situation substantially, but as it stands there is now one less option for players who want to play a Controller or Dominator on those sorts of teams without feeling like they're just along for the ride.

 

EDIT: I'd like to think I'm pragmatic most of the time, and I understand a full-scale rollback of these changes is extremely unlikely now that they've hit open beta, despite everyone and their mother warning the devs during closed beta. There has got to be a middle ground between where we were and where we are.

There is:

 

Seeds: higher recharge, fine, lower duration, fine but not as low as they are making it, place it somewhere in between at a 16 scalar, leave the 16 target cap alone.

 

Creepers: changing some of the proc interaction, fine, but up the base damage a bit to compensate an in-between. Fix the bug or intention so that they continue to spawn as they always have one vine per target constantly (no half measures, no reduced spawn rate, this is the number one thing that will just ruin plant's fun if so).

 

Spirit tree: Greatly increase it's hp/resistance/defense so that it can actually handle alphas. Otherwise this whole extra mechanic is pretty much useless and just causes aggro. Keep it with the longer duration, even up it to 2 minutes, but instead fix the actual main issue of the power that it has always been. Lower the recharge to 30-60 seconds, increase it's base regen to 250% regen (buff every mob, but slight nerf to perma'ing two of them), and make it non-stackable. This way it's the every mob power that it should be and just baseline helps keep team and creepers alive (next to no end result of being OP compared to what it does not, just simply usable with good effect every mob. The 60s duration means you're still going for recharge only now you have to constantly recast it every 30 seconds which becomes more of a chore than it should be.

 

Spores: general sleep change, it's fine.

 

Vines: we don't need every aoe hold to be a patch, and likewise this isn't needed here. It can stay as a regular taoe click, though given the other benefits i won't complain about this one in particular. Only across all aoe holds, they should be having more than base accuracy, or at the very least base accuracy. They don't need an acc penalty when nukes are out there with a bonus base accuracy and aim/build up, and just delete the mob altogether instead as it is.

[ExeErdna]

1 hour ago, LastHumanSoldier said:

Plant still has the higest damage aoe immobilze.  Still kinda surprized it wasn't normalized.

 

I mean if your are trying to generalize the sets go all the way.

 

 

And that ALL the set has as a nuke, The pet is the REAL thing that need a rework because it's not good compared to all the other pets. That are either stronger or more aggressive. 

[Lazarillo]

23 hours ago, Player-1 said:

A lower tier cone power should not be outshining high tier AoE confuses in other control powersets.

Just saying, this says more about how poor those higher tier powers are than the other way around.

[ApolloInferno]

29 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

There is:

 

Seeds: higher recharge, fine, lower duration, fine but not as low as they are making it, place it somewhere in between at a 16 scalar, leave the 16 target cap alone.

 

Creepers: changing some of the proc interaction, fine, but up the base damage a bit to compensate an in-between. Fix the bug or intention so that they continue to spawn as they always have one vine per target constantly (no half measures, no reduced spawn rate, this is the number one thing that will just ruin plant's fun if so).

 

Spirit tree: Greatly increase it's hp/resistance/defense so that it can actually handle alphas. Otherwise this whole extra mechanic is pretty much useless and just causes aggro. Keep it with the longer duration, even up it to 2 minutes, but instead fix the actual main issue of the power that it has always been. Lower the recharge to 30-60 seconds, increase it's base regen to 250% regen (buff every mob, but slight nerf to perma'ing two of them), and make it non-stackable. This way it's the every mob power that it should be and just baseline helps keep team and creepers alive (next to no end result of being OP compared to what it does not, just simply usable with good effect every mob. The 60s duration means you're still going for recharge only now you have to constantly recast it every 30 seconds which becomes more of a chore than it should be.

 

Spores: general sleep change, it's fine.

 

Vines: we don't need every aoe hold to be a patch, and likewise this isn't needed here. It can stay as a regular taoe click, though given the other benefits i won't complain about this one in particular. Only across all aoe holds, they should be having more than base accuracy, or at the very least base accuracy. They don't need an acc penalty when nukes are out there with a bonus base accuracy and aim/build up, and just delete the mob altogether instead as it is.

 

Quick update on seeds for personal testing:

 

Even with Contagious Confusion proc, 8x groups are not completly being confused. And as I get into target rich environments (ITF comes to mind) the problems seem to be increasing as I cant mez everyone even with the new tools given. Im not sure if it is working like a control set is intended to work.

 

There seems to be a small consensus here with some others who tested (look at quoted)

 

Maybe the target cap needs to be reverted? The recharge and scale changes are fine. I actually just using Vines now to control the groups while seeds off cooldown. But it seems like im taking more damage. Im assuming Confuse is probably been better for "controlling" the group because the enemies kill a few of the minions?

 

In current form its almost like i should just drop it for the new sleep buff because it isnt consistent enough

[ScarySai]

16 minutes ago, ApolloInferno said:

Im assuming Confuse is probably been better for "controlling" the group because the enemies kill a few of the minions?

 

That and it naturally forces mobs together, which works well with your own kit and everyone else's.

 

Scale should be reverted too though. Cc resistant mobs are becoming more and more prominent, ESPECIALLY for confusion. Nerfing scale is going to do nothing but make already confuse resistant mobs more miserable for plant.

 

It's actually kind of a problem they should address at some point. Even mind control struggles a bit with arachnos while domination is up now.

Edited Thursday at 05:05 PM by ScarySai

[ExeErdna]

17 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

Just saying, this says more about how poor those higher tier powers are than the other way around.

Plants just been power crept and it's carried by it's secondary very hard. Seeds are it's middle skill the issue is overall Plants just do damage there's no - anything, spores doesn't do anything but sleep and that sleep isn't as good as others that have a snare and or a debuff. Tree isn't that good on mobile teams. Vines getting buff was needed and Fly Trap is still bad

[ApolloInferno]

@ScarySai

 

Good point about resistant enemies!

 

Havnt gotten to that yet. Can say beta version is inconsistent control power for it to have a long cooldown. In certain situations it felt like it was a wasted use of a power. Which is big difference from where it is on live

[LastHumanSoldier]

41 minutes ago, ExeErdna said:

 

And that ALL the set has as a nuke, The pet is the REAL thing that need a rework because it's not good compared to all the other pets. That are either stronger or more aggressive. 

So if plant is being punished because of roots. Normalize it.

 

Illusion should also have Phantom Army damage reduced or increase its recharge.

 

[Riverdusk]

31 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

 

 

 

Scale should be reverted too though. Cc resistant mobs are becoming more and more prominent, ESPECIALLY for confusion. Nerfing scale is going to do nothing but make already confuse resistant mobs more miserable for plant.

 

It's actually kind of a problem they should address at some point. Even mind control struggles a bit with arachnos while domination is up now.

 

Don't forget nemesis.  Always the....nemesis....of my plant controllers.   Doms could overcome their confuse protection with dom up, but controller seeds were always pretty much worthless against them.

[Riverdusk]

2 hours ago, LastHumanSoldier said:

Plant still has the higest damage aoe immobilze.  Still kinda surprized it wasn't normalized.

 

I mean if your are trying to generalize the sets go all the way.

 

 

I know you are probably just trying to be facetious, but to me the aoe immobilizes are a perfect example of how I think all the other sets should be brought UP to plant's level.  Plant's AoE immobilize doing the damage it does is hardly game breaking.  Other controllers versions are just pitiful damage wise.

 

And again I keep bringing up the cranked up health regen of mobs in this patch that imo isn't getting enough attention.  Mobs are having their health regen at least doubled, the damage the aoe immobilizes do (which occurs very slowly) needs a boost just to keep up with it and not fall behind.

 

 

[TygerDarkstorm]

1 hour ago, Riverdusk said:

And again I keep bringing up the cranked up health regen of mobs in this patch that imo isn't getting enough attention.  Mobs are having their health regen at least doubled, the damage the aoe immobilizes do (which occurs very slowly) needs a boost just to keep up with it and not fall behind.

Piggybacking on this--frankly I think introducing the changes to mob regen at the same time as doing massive AT changes is poorly done. It's now hard to know in testing if the Plant changes are utterly horrible due to the plant changes, or if they're mostly fine but it's the mob changes that are the issue.

 

For those who didn't see, here are the mob changes that are affecting kill speed, so this has to be kept in mind when testing, along with the actual changes made to plant:

Critters Only:

All -regen debufs (not flagged to be irresistible) should now be resisted by magnitude, not duration
Reduced the magnitude of many (not all) low recharge -regen debuffs with magnitudes greater than -100%

All critters now regenerate health 5% of their health every 12 seconds (does not include GMs or AVs)

Edited Thursday at 06:54 PM by TygerDarkstorm
added a word

[Riverdusk]

19 minutes ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

Piggybacking on this--frankly I think introducing the changes to mob regen at the same time as doing massive AT changes is poorly done. It's now hard to know in testing if the Plant changes are utterly horrible due to the plant changes, or if they're mostly fine but it's the mob changes that are the issue.

 

For those who didn't see, here are the mob changes that are affecting kill speed, so this has to be kept in mind when testing, along with the actual changes made to plant:

Critters Only:

All -regen debufs (not flagged to be irresistible) should now be resisted by magnitude, not duration
Reduced the magnitude of many (not all) low recharge -regen debuffs with magnitudes greater than -100%

All critters now regenerate health 5% of their health every 12 seconds (does not include GMs or AVs)

 

One of those changes I'd also love to hear the "Why" behind it.  I seriously doubt my stalkers, scrappers, masterminds, blasters are even going to notice.  My controllers on the other hand I think will definitely feel it and it'll make their already low and slow damage feel even worse.   It only affects the 'poor'.

 

Doesn't help there isn't even a focused feedback thread about it to discuss it either.  I'm trying not to read anything into that...

[ExeErdna]

16 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

 

One of those changes I'd also love to hear the "Why" behind it.  I seriously doubt my stalkers, scrappers, masterminds, blasters are even going to notice.  My controllers on the other hand I think will definitely feel it and it'll make their already low and slow damage feel even worse.   It only affects the 'poor'.

 

Doesn't help there isn't even a focused feedback thread about it to discuss it either.  I'm trying not to read anything into that...

 

Enemy regen is kinda crazy it makes it kinda hard to test properly if it's the set is having issues or it's the enemies just either resisting and or regenerating more. If that's gonna roll out WITH Plant being nerfed people are just gonna high DPS metagame which is something Plant wasn't "good" at. It just had good visual feedback that made it look strong. 

[MrAptronym]

23 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

 

One of those changes I'd also love to hear the "Why" behind it.  I seriously doubt my stalkers, scrappers, masterminds, blasters are even going to notice.  My controllers on the other hand I think will definitely feel it and it'll make their already low and slow damage feel even worse.   It only affects the 'poor'.

 

Doesn't help there isn't even a focused feedback thread about it to discuss it either.  I'm trying not to read anything into that...

 

Agreed, It is an odd change to make while everyone is testing the feel and damage on tankers and controllers specifically. I am not sure to what extent these regen changes will have a real effect on clear times or feel, but any effect is certainly is pushing on the wrong end of things. I assume this is to set up for other changes, but in a game with a meta often defined by massive, arguably problematic, burst damage, amping up regen is harming the ATs that do the least.

 

Have not thought about how impactful this change is my gut would say not very for most content, and obviously the hit to creepers is real, but it is worth thinking about. In the harder stuff, going solo (which I assume many are testing with) it could be a real kick 

Edited Thursday at 07:39 PM by MrAptronym

[TygerDarkstorm]

2 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

 

One of those changes I'd also love to hear the "Why" behind it.  I seriously doubt my stalkers, scrappers, masterminds, blasters are even going to notice.  My controllers on the other hand I think will definitely feel it and it'll make their already low and slow damage feel even worse.   It only affects the 'poor'.

 

Doesn't help there isn't even a focused feedback thread about it to discuss it either.  I'm trying not to read anything into that...

Exactly, no feedback thread for this change and rolling it out at the same time as sweeping AT changes is not good. 

 

I truly don't think all of the plant changes are *horrible*; the new vines change is actually pretty cool. However, when combined with the mob changes, it leaves Plant feeling a bit anemic when testing right now and it's hard to know how to report on that. And I do agree with others that the Seeds changes went too far. I haven't tested Carrion Creepers yet, but the devs have acknowledged those are bugged right now and it may be better to wait until they patch Creepers before testing them in their current state. I think if these changes were made with how the mobs act currently on live, Plant would not feel as bad as it does right now, but as it stands, are the plant changes bad or are the mob changes overtuned?

 

Making the game more of a slog because it was "too easy" is not the way to go, imo. Not all of us play twinked out characters or geared to the gills 50's, and these changes hurt those players (of which I am one).

[LastHumanSoldier]

Feedback for [OPEN BETA] Patch Notes for May 29th, 2025 - Issue 28, Page 2 - Build 2

Adaptive Recharge on Seeds of Confusion has quieted my concerns.  Immediately better.
Still cannot lock down a 54x8 group by itself and be safe on my ranged capped Plant/Kin/Fire.
 

BUT

 

Creeper spawn rate is fixed. Thank you. (How did this go through entire closed beta only noticing in open beta it spawned 5? Thank you for reverting your intended change.)

Containment added to creepers helps a great deal. It feels good to play with Kin again.

Creepers alone on my ranged capped Plant/Kin/Fire could let me kill a group.

 

 

 

Vines works great.

Verdict:

In MY OPINION:  

Survivability isn't what it was on live. but its ok. 

I can fix this by adding in Spore or the Tree. (I don't need both)

I am on a KIN and I can stand unassisted with Creepers holding the agro on 54x8  BASIC  spawns and feel safe.
Maybe thrown a heal here or there.

Other tankier secondaries shouldn't have an issue if a KIN can do this. 

 

 

[LastHumanSoldier]

Oh I still think plant is slipping out of S Tier but its now maybe an B+ now.

 

[TygerDarkstorm]

8 minutes ago, LastHumanSoldier said:

Feedback for [OPEN BETA] Patch Notes for May 29th, 2025 - Issue 28, Page 2 - Build 2

Adaptive Recharge on Seeds of Confusion has quieted my concerns.  Immediately better.
Still cannot lock down a 54x8 group by itself and be safe on my ranged capped Plant/Kin/Fire.
 

BUT

 

Creeper spawn rate is fixed. Thank you. (How did this go through entire closed beta only noticing in open beta it spawned 5? Thank you for reverting your intended change.)

Containment added to creepers helps a great deal. It feels good to play with Kin again.

Creepers alone on my ranged capped Plant/Kin/Fire could let me kill a group.

 

 

 

Vines works great.

Verdict:

In MY OPINION:  

Survivability isn't what it was on live. but its ok. 

I can fix this by adding in Spore or the Tree. (I don't need both)

I am on a KIN and I can stand unassisted with Creepers holding the agro on 54x8  BASIC  spawns and feel safe.
Maybe thrown a heal here or there.

Other tankier secondaries shouldn't have an issue if a KIN can do this. 

 

 

Thank you for this. I look forward to testing the set again with these changes and hoping it doesn't feel as sloggish as it did before.

[LastHumanSoldier]

Just tried some KW missions at 53x8 it was touch and go, but I think that will be solved by adding Spore or Tree.

 

[Riverdusk]

Interesting they decided to go with adaptive recharge on it.  Wouldn't have been my first choice, but I like it.

 

Good to hear creepers is acting better again.

 

Thanks for the testing @LastHumanSoldier, sounds promising.

 

[Vanden]

Creepers feels much better with the current patch, and the new resists on Spirit Tree let it soak alphas with aplomb (except against Lethal, but I understand that's a bug).

[Championess]

Adaptive Recharge will do well for Seeds.  This change achieves their balancing of larger engagements while whitling fights down Seeds will be served well with the faster recharge.  Good compromise.

Edited Thursday at 10:15 PM by Championess

[Electronuts]

On 5/26/2025 at 1:07 PM, The Curator said:

 Seeds of Confusion

• Recharge increased to 90s.
• Scale reduced from scale 20 to scale 12.
• Target cap lowered from 16 to 10.
• Endurance cost lowered from to 15.6 to 8.528.
• This power now has Adaptive Recharge. It has a base recharge of 8 seconds, and each affected foe will increase the recharge by 8.2 seconds for a maximum total of 90 seconds. 

I like the new change as a compromise for solo play, but in reality its just presentational and on any team nothing has changed - its 90 seconds every group. Why not leave the target cap at 16 and fill in the hits above 10 with a sleep, like you have done on the new set?

 

I know Hyp Lights has different ranges for confuse and sleep, but it gets 45 seconds recharge and a chunk of damage. Its a very strong control power, people will still play it, you dont need to destory plant to make us interested in it.

[Uun]

• Seeds with Adaptive Recharge feels really good, particularly in enclosed enclosed areas and hallways where the cone can't hit the entire spawn in one shot. I found you could apply it to chunks of the group and it would be up in 10-15s to hit another chunk. Even in open areas where I could hit 10, recharge was about 25s with Hasten and 107.5% global recharge.
• Creepers seems to be working properly after the patch. 
• I have mixed feelings about Vines. While setting it up ahead in a location and pulling spawns into it works well, its long duration is pretty situational. With Hasten and 107.5% global recharge it has about a 1 minute cooldown. What I don't like is that it's now a mag 3 hold with only a 25% chance of applying the additional 3 mag while Domination is up. While the longer duration of the patch may be better for controllers, the reduced magnitude is decidedly worse for dominators (the old targeted version had a 100% chance of the additional 3 mag while Domination is up). I would much prefer the mechanics of the old targeted version, paired with Adaptive Recharge.

[LastHumanSoldier]

26 minutes ago, Uun said:

• Seeds with Adaptive Recharge feels really good, particularly in enclosed enclosed areas and hallways where the cone can't hit the entire spawn in one shot. I found you could apply it to chunks of the group and it would be up in 10-15s to hit another chunk. Even in open areas where I could hit 10, recharge was about 25s with Hasten and 107.5% global recharge.
• Creepers seems to be working properly after the patch. 
• I have mixed feelings about Vines. While setting it up ahead in a location and pulling spawns into it works well, its long duration is pretty situational. With Hasten and 107.5% global recharge it has about a 1 minute cooldown. What I don't like is that it's now a mag 3 hold with only a 25% chance of applying the additional 3 mag while Domination is up. While the longer duration of the patch may be better for controllers, the reduced magnitude is decidedly worse for dominators (the old targeted version had a 100% chance of the additional 3 mag while Domination is up). I would much prefer the mechanics of the old targeted version, paired with Adaptive Recharge.

 

Are you kidding me?
WTF devs.