Enhancements and IOs

[Ultimo]

3 hours ago, Herotu said:

A little off-topic and for that I apologise.

My problem is that everybody gets more than a basic set of powers. You shouldn't be able to get quite so many - it should be a small set of skills - perhaps make it a swap-out situation if you want, but it's too much - you look at Superheroes from comics and they have a couple of powers that some heroes use in clever ways AND a weakness sometimes in the form of a weak relative or friend.

 

In COH you've a massive set of powers and no weaknesses. That's out of step with traditional super heroes. 

Not long ago I posted a comment about perks and flaws, which was intended to flesh out characters, giving them weaknesses (such as Aquaman's need for periodic hydration, or Superman's vulnerability to kryptonite, or Martian Manhunter's reaction to fire), in exchange for perks (such as great wealth, or political influence, or what have you).

 

It was met with the usual resistance.

[Herotu]

1 hour ago, Ultimo said:

Not long ago I posted a comment about perks and flaws, which was intended to flesh out characters, giving them weaknesses (such as Aquaman's need for periodic hydration, or Superman's vulnerability to kryptonite, or Martian Manhunter's reaction to fire), in exchange for perks (such as great wealth, or political influence, or what have you).

 

It was met with the usual resistance.

If it's any compensation, I like it. I think others like it too, but they'd be correct to point out that's not what COH was or is about. Same with the zillions of powers. That's one of the things that makes COH what it was. They want Homecoming to be COH in 2009 or something rather than a COH reinterpreted for 2025 - that's why we have dissenters resisting any change whatsoever.

[srmalloy]

7 hours ago, Herotu said:

My problem is that everybody gets more than a basic set of powers. You shouldn't be able to get quite so many - it should be a small set of skills - perhaps make it a swap-out situation if you want, but it's too much - you look at Superheroes from comics and they have a couple of powers that some heroes use in clever ways AND a weakness sometimes in the form of a weak relative or friend.

Take a look at Elder Scrolls Online, then; it may be more to your tastes for managing powers. Basically, the UI is really heavily oriented around the assumption that everyone, regardless of what platform they're playing on, will be using a game controller, so your abilities rest in a single bar of six powers and an 'Ultimate', but at, IIRC, level 15, you open a second bar, so you have a 'front bar' and a 'back bar' that you can switch between, and powers are exclusive to the bar, so if you put a power that has a timed effect on your front bar, it switches off the moment you switch to your back bar unless it's also slotted in your back bar. So if you have pet summons powers, unless you want the pet to disappear when you switch bars, you need to use up 1/6 of your bar space slotting that summons on both bars. But all of this does restrict you to a 'basic set of powers' -- by the time you reach level cap, you'll have considerably more abilities than you have bar space for, which addresses your 'too many powers' complaint neatly.

[hoodedKitsune]

On 6/5/2025 at 3:36 PM, Ultimo said:

So... I was looking at one of my characters today, he's outleveled all his SOs once again, and hasn't enough Influence to be able to replace them.  So, I thought, he's L30 now, perhaps I can upgrade them to IOs, and not have to worry about all this nonsense.

 

I started looking at the IO recipes, just the generic ones, and they're on the order of 45k, just for the recipe.  THEN there's the cost to MAKE them, AND the cost of the salvage... they're ridiculously expensive, there's no way I'd be able to get them made.  When I asked how people are getting the billions of Influence I keep hearing about, I was told to play the market, selling this or that or what have you... which left me feeling rather depressed.  First of all, I have nothing of particular value to sell.  Secondly, and more importantly, I'm playing a game to be a super hero, not a day trader.  I really don't have any inclination to fiddle around with the market every day.  I HAVE a job, I don't need another one.  I just want to zap the bad guys.

 

Is all this really necessary?

I find when people say to "play the market" to be the biggest joke of all times and nine out of ten said person IS playing the market...the whole market.  I get most of my IOs from Merits be it the whole IO itself of the recipes, then using any recipe I do get in a drop and upgrading it later if I can.  You can make some money here and there dropping 100 merits on an ATO or two and selling it in the market. You may our may not get the price you want and might have to let it sit for a while on sale but you will get something.  

 

I made a farm character once and it was nice for drop and all that, but I can't really keep a farm character because it burns me out on the game overall fast.  I have to tip my hat to those who can run a farming character or two and still jump into the game with the same gusto, like REALLY I tip my hat to you guys, 🤣 It's why I had to stop playing Warframe! I can only run the same map over and over in one gaming session let long the next two gaming sessions in a row so many times before I am throwing up my hands going "OH SCREW THIS!" and the CC is flying out the wallet 🤣 

 

a few TF and Trails, specially, for a weekly work great for some Merits here and there, but the real way I make it is joining a Hami Raid once or two a week and a MSR.  level 45 being the sweet spot when you can join almost anything outside of level 50 plus stuff.  If you can hang in there with SOs or a few crafted SOs (is that what they are called, can't remember?) till you get the stuff you need with Merits and lucky drops, you will be good to go, and anything you don't need and can save, slap into your SG base storage (make one or two if you don't have a base!) for another character who doesn't have to worry so much about the grind or getting passed a lot of inf. just be the right level to use everything!  

 

All this works for me but I am on like Torch. I plan on making a new character from scratch one day on one of the other two big servers and seeing if I can make it without sending stuff to said new character. A new server, a new Base, a hope and a dream and see what happens.  Tho I do feel bad leaving Torch, how do you guys play on more than one server that do? Anyways, again this all works for me, and this forum is full of people with a lot of way better working ideas, plans, etc.

[Snarky]

1 minute ago, hoodedKitsune said:

I made a farm character once and it was nice for drop and all that, but I can't really keep a farm character because it burns me out on the game overall fast.  I have to tip my hat to those who can run a farming character or two and still jump into the game with the same gusto, like REALLY I tip my hat to you guys, 🤣 It's why I had to stop playing Warframe! I can only run the same map over and over in one gaming session let long the next two gaming sessions in a row so many times before I am throwing up my hands going "OH SCREW THIS!" and the CC is flying out the wallet 🤣 

this is why i beg for inf.  not only does it work (sometimes...) but i find it an enjoyable part of playing my grumpy greedy vampire.  it makes people uncomfortable? it just keeps getting better!!!

[Maelwys]

On 6/13/2025 at 10:45 PM, Ultimo said:

Not long ago I posted a comment about perks and flaws, which was intended to flesh out characters, giving them weaknesses (such as Aquaman's need for periodic hydration, or Superman's vulnerability to kryptonite, or Martian Manhunter's reaction to fire), in exchange for perks (such as great wealth, or political influence, or what have you).

 

It was met with the usual resistance.

I mean, you just know what sort of nonsense we'd end up with...

[Wobegone]

4 hours ago, hoodedKitsune said:

I find when people say to "play the market" to be the biggest joke of all times and nine out of ten said person IS playing the market...the whole market.  I get most of my IOs from Merits be it the whole IO itself of the recipes, then using any recipe I do get in a drop and upgrading it later if I can.  

 

I'd say anyone saying "play the market" is 100% playing the market.  Anyone can play the market.  There are numerous examples for making money on the Market forum.  Buying IOs with Merits is certainly viable, but you'd get much more efficient results by using those Merits for converter roulette.  And it doesn't take much time.  It's never been easier in the City to make as much money as you want with a little time and effort.

 

But I get it.  For some, "playing the market" isn't fun.  It's not very fun for me anymore either.  Once I had enough to sustain me indefinitely, I stopped actively playing the market (although I still craft all non-common recipe drops, convert them, then put them and remaining salvage on the AH).  

[lemming]

5 hours ago, Maelwys said:

I mean, you just know what sort of nonsense we'd end up with..

A prime example of Champions disadvantages which is why the GM always had to review it since for some chars, the same disad wasn't worth the same

[Ultimo]

45 minutes ago, lemming said:

A prime example of Champions disadvantages which is why the GM always had to review it since for some chars, the same disad wasn't worth the same

Of course, in a game like this the players wouldn't define the effects, they would choose from a selection.

For example, your character might suffer a debuff when in the presence of fire.  Maybe it's psychological, and he suffers a Fear effect.

Another character might be especially susceptible to Confuse effects, or take extra damage from a particular type of damage, Fire, Cold, Toxic or what have you.

The particulars would be defined by the GAME, not the player.

Same with the perks.  The idea is that whatever bonuses you choose would match the flaws you take.

 

So, suppose I'm making Superman.

He's susceptible to Kryptonite.  In the presence of it, he suffers a constant DOT against his Endurance, and once that's gone, his Health.  -3pt flaw

His defenses have no effect on Magic.  This reduces all his defensive powers to 0 effect against any Magic damage.  -5pt flaw

These flaws would be paid for with extra perks.

He has increased travel speed on all his movement powers.  +3pt perk

He gets access to Epic powers at L28 instead of 35.  +5pt perk

 

This is just an example, of course.  The player would choose these effects from a list of possibilities.  I've seen this in tons of games over the years, and I really like it when I see it.  It was one of my favourite bits of Master of Orion II, devising some cool combination of perks and flaws.  It would need to be carefully balanced, too, but that shouldn't be TOO difficult.

[srmalloy]

10 hours ago, Ultimo said:

Of course, in a game like this the players wouldn't define the effects, they would choose from a selection.

For example, your character might suffer a debuff when in the presence of fire.  Maybe it's psychological, and he suffers a Fear effect.

Another character might be especially susceptible to Confuse effects, or take extra damage from a particular type of damage, Fire, Cold, Toxic or what have you.

The particulars would be defined by the GAME, not the player.

One problem with this is that the disadvantages need to be balanced against how often they come into effect. With a game like CoH, for a big chunk of the game you can avoid exposure to certain effects by being careful about your choice of opponent groups; it's only in the late game that you lose most of the ability to pick and choose your opponents to avoid your weaknesses.

[Ultimo]

4 hours ago, srmalloy said:

One problem with this is that the disadvantages need to be balanced against how often they come into effect. With a game like CoH, for a big chunk of the game you can avoid exposure to certain effects by being careful about your choice of opponent groups; it's only in the late game that you lose most of the ability to pick and choose your opponents to avoid your weaknesses.

And I see no problem with that.  Superman often uses different tactics when facing a foe that has access to Magic, or kryptonite.  I'm reminded of JLA #200, where the original League members were trying to recover kryptonite meteorites while the newer members were trying to stop them.  Hawkman had to try to stop Superman, who had deployed ANDROIDS to recover the meteorite.  He took steps to minimize his disadvantage.  I see that as just smart gameplay, no different than using Hover to limit melee vulnerability.

[Major_Decoy]

On 6/13/2025 at 2:45 PM, Ultimo said:

Not long ago I posted a comment about perks and flaws, which was intended to flesh out characters, giving them weaknesses (such as Aquaman's need for periodic hydration, or Superman's vulnerability to kryptonite, or Martian Manhunter's reaction to fire), in exchange for perks (such as great wealth, or political influence, or what have you).

You can absolutely roleplay that with the current game, it's not like great wealth or political influence have any influence on game play and neither does you weakness, so it's pretty balanced.

[Ultimo]

8 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

You can absolutely roleplay that with the current game, it's not like great wealth or political influence have any influence on game play and neither does you weakness, so it's pretty balanced.

I hate that argument.  Why have different powers?  You can roleplay them all.  Just say it's fire or ice or whatever.  Heck, why play at all?  Just roleplay everything.

Sorry if that seems impolite, but it's kind of a trigger to me.

[Psyonico]

52 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

I hate that argument.  Why have different powers?  You can roleplay them all.  Just say it's fire or ice or whatever.  Heck, why play at all?  Just roleplay everything.

Sorry if that seems impolite, but it's kind of a trigger to me.

Fine,  then how would “great wealth” affect gameplay.

 

and no, you can’t say “you start with x inf “ because inf is not technically money.

[Erratic1]

On 6/13/2025 at 4:28 PM, Herotu said:

I like this, it's got a ring of truth about it. BUT then add all the pool powers, mastery powers and we're back in the "zillions of powers" zone again.

 

Captain America is known for his leadership, the Human Torch is not. Do the pool powers have some sort of massive influence on most encounters or are they mostly rounding characters out?

[Ultimo]

3 hours ago, Psyonico said:

Fine,  then how would “great wealth” affect gameplay.

 

and no, you can’t say “you start with x inf “ because inf is not technically money.

Well, it's a case of deciding what great wealth DOES for you.  It's not just a matter of having more influence, it could be a bonus to gained influence (it takes money to make money).  Perhaps it gives you a discount when buying enhancements or temporary powers.  This is just off the top of my head, of course.  Anything they did include would need to be worked out carefully so it didn't create any balance issues.

[Biff Pow]

1 hour ago, Ultimo said:

Well, it's a case of deciding what great wealth DOES for you.  It's not just a matter of having more influence, it could be a bonus to gained influence (it takes money to make money).  Perhaps it gives you a discount when buying enhancements or temporary powers.  This is just off the top of my head, of course.  Anything they did include would need to be worked out carefully so it didn't create any balance issues.

 

A lot of this kind of stuff is covered in Day Jobs.

[Ultimo]

3 hours ago, Biff Pow said:

 

A lot of this kind of stuff is covered in Day Jobs.

Yes, that particular example is.  But day jobs happen while you're NOT playing.  I'd like to see some depth added to the game when I AM playing.

[BjorJlen]

   Depth is a great thing in games, I agree, so long as it is not done in the extreme of course. However, as this is a 20 year old game, there is no way that the game is going to be any better in that regard, unless it is done via RolePlaying. And while a bonus to gaining influence is also a ok idea, that is going to mean nothing for people who already have billions to their name. So yeah, all around nice ideas, and a good discussion on the matter, but in reality, adding any official weaknesses I just don't see happening (imo only) with a game this old in age and design. Sorry if this is a bummer, but as the old saying goes, "If wishes were horses, even beggars would ride". But it is great to dream, isn't it, so keep on thinking free... 🙂

 

"Just as treasures are uncovered from the earth, so virtue appears from good deeds, and wisdom appears from a pure and peaceful mind." - T

[Ultimo]

4 hours ago, BjorJlen said:

   Depth is a great thing in games, I agree, so long as it is not done in the extreme of course. However, as this is a 20 year old game, there is no way that the game is going to be any better in that regard, unless it is done via RolePlaying. And while a bonus to gaining influence is also a ok idea, that is going to mean nothing for people who already have billions to their name. So yeah, all around nice ideas, and a good discussion on the matter, but in reality, adding any official weaknesses I just don't see happening (imo only) with a game this old in age and design. Sorry if this is a bummer, but as the old saying goes, "If wishes were horses, even beggars would ride". But it is great to dream, isn't it, so keep on thinking free... 🙂

 

"Just as treasures are uncovered from the earth, so virtue appears from good deeds, and wisdom appears from a pure and peaceful mind." - T

Oh, I agree. I don't expect or hope for them to implement anything like perks and flaws, I was just saying I'd made the suggestion at one time.

[Herotu]

On 6/17/2025 at 2:51 AM, Erratic1 said:

 

Captain America is known for his leadership, the Human Torch is not. Do the pool powers have some sort of massive influence on most encounters or are they mostly rounding characters out?

Massive influence.