Let's buff Knockback

[Galaxy Brain]

Knockback in the superhero genre, or heck any action style media, is always incredibly impactful. When a guy gets launched, it is usually the end of a fight if not a devastating blow that takes a lot of time to recover from. In CoH, it is like a minor inconvenience where the enemy can get back up in short order without much repercussion.

 

Sure, knocking them into the geometry can cause hilarious rag doll physics where they are stuck for a while, but in general you knock somebody back, and they pick themselves up after a ~2 sec animation and are back to square one. This is why Knockdown is generally seen as superior, as the animation of them falling + getting up is still there for soft control, but then they are not out of range of XYZ effects either (same with Knock Up for much the same reason).

 

So, to give Knockback some superheroic oomph, how about we take a page from Knock-Up powers such as Levitate and Lift? These powers apply a bonus damage proc when the victim hits the ground. Something similar can be applied to other knockback powers:

 

DMG = ((Mag - 1)x(Damage/10)) x (2 - % Chance to Knock)

 

Something like this could offer bonus damage to player's KB powers based on the damage and KB potential of the attack. Broken down, this looks at the magnitude of the knockback compared to a fraction of the base damage of the power. The bigger the mag, the more base KB damage it will deal. On top of this, it then gets multiplied by the chance to happen, with a higher chance giving less of a bonus.

 

100 damage, 1.5 mag, 100% chance = 5 damage dealt (5% boost)

 

100 damage, 3 mag, 50% chance = 30 damage (30% boost)

 

100 damage, 0.67 mag, 25% chance = -6 damage (0%, the formula has anything under 1 mag not give a bonus as it becomes knockdown)

 

This would actually make slotting for Knockback give a higher mag, and thus a higher potential damage boost as you launch enemies across the room and either smack into the floor or other objects with some force behind them. The numbers can always be messed with, but the idea here is to have some interaction where the Magnitude and Chance of KB have an inverse relationship to make guaranteed KB not as powerful as chance of KB.

 

Similarly, the animation time for an enemy to get back up could have a similar relationship where the magnitude determines the animation time. Something as simple as multiplying the animation time by the mag in some form would work as higher mag = longer time on the ground.

 

 

KB is a very potent tool in the right hands, but it can be frustrating when you are new to the game both with yourself and others. I have also spoken with many players brand new to the game, and often they were confused that Kb didn't have some bonus effect when you slammed somebody into a wall or off a height inside a mission! Adding something beneficial to Knockback over it's counterparts would add another layer of fun to such powers as well as help it stand out as a cool thing to do in a team setting even if you are not quite a KB-Master yet!

 

Thoughts?

[Legree]

I like this idea.  I sometimes feel a bit cheated when I bounce a mob off a wall and don't get any extra damage from doing so.  However I don't feel that a bit of extra damage would silence its detractors.

 

...but in general you knock somebody back, and they pick themselves up after a ~2 sec animation and are back to square one

 

Except they are now out of melee range and by the time they get back into melee range my Power Thrust has recharged... and off they go again.  This is my main objection to the idea that "KD = KB so slot the IO" because they're really not the same thing.  A melee heavy Boss can wreck a squishy Blaster in seconds, and KB is a superb way of keeping that Boss out of melee range, which KD does not do.

 

I think the hate for KB has blinded people to just how good a control it is.  I've been running an Energy/Energy Blaster through the 1-20 Praetoria story - with Bosses enabled - and it's been a walk so far.  Three Boss fights in a row with no downtime between them?  No problem, I'll just play pinball with them all over the map while blasting their health bar to bits as they tumble through the air and bounce off of things in an amusing manner.  Maybe once or twice per fight they'll be on their feet long enough to get an attack off.  Maybe.

 

As I said, I like this idea - I really do.  But then I like Knockback already.

[Herotu]

THIS IS AWESOME.

 

I concur with this because I love watching enemies fly.

 

This would give incentive to slot KB enhancements and say a big, "Go Home", to those stupid KB to KD enhancements!

[jack_nomind]

KU doesn't specifically have a separate damage proc, although it can cause falling damage.  So can KB, if you knock someone off of something. 

 

The problem with geometry damage is that CoH mostly doesn't have geometry.  Walls simply don't exist.  There might be a way to have KB interact with falling damage, but it would in effect simply cause additional damage until the target stopped moving -- anything that stopped the target's motion would actually reduce damage.

[Galaxy Brain]

KU doesn't specifically have a separate damage proc, although it can cause falling damage.  So can KB, if you knock someone off of something. 

 

The problem with geometry damage is that CoH mostly doesn't have geometry.  Walls simply don't exist.  There might be a way to have KB interact with falling damage, but it would in effect simply cause additional damage until the target stopped moving -- anything that stopped the target's motion would actually reduce damage.

 

I didn't mention geometry damage, rather that knockback just does damage based on the chance / mag when it happens :)

 

Making it based on fall damage or geometry would be too complex, which is why I would rather it be like Lift or Levitate where there is some sort of proc that occurs when you do knock. The force that launches you 50 ft would probably hurt the same if you landed 50ft or 5ft away, no?

[justicebeliever]

 

I didn't mention geometry damage, rather that knockback just does damage based on the chance / mag when it happens :)

 

Making it based on fall damage or geometry would be too complex, which is why I would rather it be like Lift or Levitate where there is some sort of proc that occurs when you do knock. The force that launches you 50 ft would probably hurt the same if you landed 50ft or 5ft away, no?

 

I’m a +1 to this idea, but not your physics, force is equal to mass*acceleration, and distance is typically a factor there.

[Galaxy Brain]

 

I didn't mention geometry damage, rather that knockback just does damage based on the chance / mag when it happens :)

 

Making it based on fall damage or geometry would be too complex, which is why I would rather it be like Lift or Levitate where there is some sort of proc that occurs when you do knock. The force that launches you 50 ft would probably hurt the same if you landed 50ft or 5ft away, no?

 

I’m a +1 to this idea, but not your physics, force is equal to mass*acceleration, and distance is typically a factor there.

 

I'm bad at typing today haha. What I mean is like, if you get hit by force X that is strong enough to launch you 50 ft, when you hit the ground at 50ft *or* hit a wall at 5ft you will still be in for a whallop!

 

 

[Xaeon]

I've suggested something similar in warframe in response to their ideas for trying to balance impact and puncture damage with slash damage. The issue there being that Slash damage's special proc is an irresistable bleed that ignores resists, armour, and shielding that scales to the damage dealt while Impact's is just a stun and Puncture only reduces the damage the enemy deals. They wanted Impact to also do KB if the damage is high enough and Puncture's DR to scale up to -75% but DE was met with many saying that this would not actually solve why Slash is the king of physical damage types. If they wanted people to consider KB as anything but a goofy gimmick for some weapons and an annoyance for some herd focused frames and weapons; KB would have to do damage.

 

And honestly it really should, being thrown across the room with that much force isn't going to be harmless as many video games show it as being. It's not a momentary issue that just means you need some time to reorient yourself; it's going to be a big chunk of blunt force trauma.  Having KB actually hurt would also make it more desireable for melee toons who traditionally have generally disliked KB because it is inherently at odds with their preferred combat ranges. While this wouldn't make KB accepted for every Melee toon regardless (Brutes are likely to still pass over powers that have a lot of KB because their inherent demands nonstop fighting in dense spawns of enemies and tankers similarly are likely to prefer to keep enemies close and easily aggro managed), it would make KB heavy powers or sets more attractive for ATs that fight in CQC. 

 

It would also make the KB to KD IOs be more of an involved choice as you're sacrificing a slot and some damage. Though to compensate, the IOs could have +damage or +recharge or +accuracy or a smashing/energy damage proc or the like added to them. 

[Solarverse]

I'm afraid this will only further encourage bad players who use knock back against the grain of the team. I can see them now, coming out of the wood work with abilities full of knock back, and scattering mobs all over the place. This might sound like a good idea here on the forums, but in game, it will only serve to irritate other players.

 

Too bad Knock Back does not come with a tutorial on how to play with a team and not against one.

[Galaxy Brain]

I'm afraid this will only further encourage bad players who use knock back against the grain of the team. I can see them now, coming out of the wood work with abilities full of knock back, and scattering mobs all over the place. This might sound like a good idea here on the forums, but in game, it will only serve to irritate other players.

 

Too bad Knock Back does not come with a tutorial on how to play with a team and not against one.

 

It's a shame ots not as straightforward as other effects, but that's the nature of the game :/

 

As for encouraging knockback, the intent behind the change is to make it more forgiving or actually *encouraged* where a powerful blast could just delete enemies more effectively rather than slow the team down, or better keep enemies prone for longer for safety. Either way, the issue is in one part that it's hard to master and in another part that the negatives do not outweigh the benefits when compared to other (soft) control effects

[Solarverse]

I'm afraid this will only further encourage bad players who use knock back against the grain of the team. I can see them now, coming out of the wood work with abilities full of knock back, and scattering mobs all over the place. This might sound like a good idea here on the forums, but in game, it will only serve to irritate other players.

 

Too bad Knock Back does not come with a tutorial on how to play with a team and not against one.

 

It's a shame ots not as straightforward as other effects, but that's the nature of the game :/

 

As for encouraging knockback, the intent behind the change is to make it more forgiving or actually *encouraged* where a powerful blast could just delete enemies more effectively rather than slow the team down, or better keep enemies prone for longer for safety. Either way, the issue is in one part that it's hard to master and in another part that the negatives do not outweigh the benefits when compared to other (soft) control effects

 

I can Amen to that.  :)

[jack_nomind]

I would rather it be like Lift or Levitate where there is some sort of proc that occurs when you do knock. The force that launches you 50 ft would probably hurt the same if you landed 50ft or 5ft away, no?

 

Those powers just split their damage between two hits, like Barrage does.  They don't do 'extra' damage.

[Galaxy Brain]

I would rather it be like Lift or Levitate where there is some sort of proc that occurs when you do knock. The force that launches you 50 ft would probably hurt the same if you landed 50ft or 5ft away, no?

 

Those powers just split their damage between two hits, like Barrage does.  They don't do 'extra' damage.

 

Right, but thats the same kind of concept I think would be fun for Knockback: Hit (Take primary damage) > get flung > Hit floor/wall (take KB damage). Obviously this would not matter when you hit the floor/wall, but be after a ~2sec delay.

[jack_nomind]

Right, but thats the same kind of concept I think would be fun for Knockback: Hit (Take primary damage) > get flung > Hit floor/wall (take KB damage). Obviously this would not matter when you hit the floor/wall, but be after a ~2sec delay.

 

Okay.  If I'm understanding this, you want each KB power in the game to be re-written so it does half (or w/e) as much damage as now up-front, and another half after 2s, and to ignore damage enhancements for the second half but use KB enhancements to buff the damage instead.

 

This is neither a buff nor likely to happen.

[Galaxy Brain]

Right, but thats the same kind of concept I think would be fun for Knockback: Hit (Take primary damage) > get flung > Hit floor/wall (take KB damage). Obviously this would not matter when you hit the floor/wall, but be after a ~2sec delay.

 

Okay.  If I'm understanding this, you want each KB power in the game to be re-written so it does half (or w/e) as much damage as now up-front, and another half after 2s, and to ignore damage enhancements for the second half but use KB enhancements to buff the damage instead.

 

This is neither a buff nor likely to happen.

 

I never said the base damage is split, Knockback would be additional damage. So if a power currently does 100 damage, and has a chance to knockback it would then do 100 damage + Knockback damage when/if the KB occurs. How this bonus damage is calculated is up in the air but I just threw something on the board, heck it could even just be Magnitude x Character level to make it simpler.

 

As it stands, Knockback even when used "correctly" is usually inferior to the majority of other control/soft control due to the extra time it takes to reposition as well as the chance that KB will actually take a target away from other beneficial powers. It has direct comparisons to KD and KU which both have the same soft control effect while not having the negative of needing to carefully position yourself and the targets.

 

We have already seen how powerful KD is with the new IO radically changing powers. KU powers often have a strong initial hit (KO Blow) or are defined by thematically using the movement of the enemy to deal damage (Lift/Levitate). That same theme you would think would carry over to Knockback as usually launching somebody across the room would be due to a massive strike, or at the least the targets would take a beating once they reach their destination. Powers that have a chance to knock could be seen as having a chance for a "Stronger" hit in this regard, and powers that always knockback would see a big benefit that would mitigate the negative aspects of misuse by at least dealing damage. What I had posted above tried to make powers that had a chance stronger than those that had a guarantee, but that is up in the air. The core idea is that KB should have more oomph to it to justify it's quirks over other power effects.

 

If the bonus damage or the like is a no go, at the least the animation for getting up after knockback should have more weight depending on the mag. Knocking somebody off their feet = 2 sec to get up, while hurling them across a room has the same recovery time (discounting the launch time)? Making the mag have a stronger soft control aspect could help a lot with making KB more palatable while learning how to control it, and then allow for mastery to be even more rewarding.

 

 

[jack_nomind]

If the bonus damage or the like is a no go, at the least the animation for getting up after knockback should have more weight depending on the mag. Knocking somebody off their feet = 2 sec to get up, while hurling them across a room has the same recovery time (discounting the launch time)? Making the mag have a stronger soft control aspect could help a lot with making KB more palatable while learning how to control it, and then allow for mastery to be even more rewarding.

 

The bonus damage as you describe is probably a no-go.  It would probably be a no-go even if there were a simple way of doing collisions, but it's more interesting/understandable in that case.

 

KB powers already act in some sense as you describe.  The target of a KB is unable to use powers during the entire flight time/ragdoll period.  But in general, 'mastery' of KB usually means minimizing flight time either by first rooting the enemies (which provides KB protection) or vectoring them into the floor or a corner. 

[Galaxy Brain]

If the bonus damage or the like is a no go, at the least the animation for getting up after knockback should have more weight depending on the mag. Knocking somebody off their feet = 2 sec to get up, while hurling them across a room has the same recovery time (discounting the launch time)? Making the mag have a stronger soft control aspect could help a lot with making KB more palatable while learning how to control it, and then allow for mastery to be even more rewarding.

 

The bonus damage as you describe is probably a no-go.  It would probably be a no-go even if there were a simple way of doing collisions, but it's more interesting/understandable in that case.

 

KB powers already act in some sense as you describe.  The target of a KB is unable to use powers during the entire flight time/ragdoll period.  But in general, 'mastery' of KB usually means minimizing flight time either by first rooting the enemies (which provides KB protection) or vectoring them into the floor or a corner.

 

Correct. Mastering Knockback means actively mitigating it by flinging people into the geometry (which can be good with ragdoll nonsense, but that is almost RNG) which is again, done better by KD or KU. Holds and Immobilizes can turn KB into KD, or even negate it all together which further digs into knockback as a side effect. Most other powers have a useful side effect at all times such as Slow. If an opponent is held or immobilized, the slow still applies for if/when they break free. Knockback has no such effect unless it is very baked in with Grav/'s impact.

[jack_nomind]

Holds and Immobilizes can turn KB into KD, or even negate it all together which further digs into knockback as a side effect. Most other powers have a useful side effect at all times such as Slow. If an opponent is held or immobilized, the slow still applies for if/when they break free. Knockback has no such effect unless it is very baked in with Grav/'s impact.

 

I've had a lot of trouble pinning down what you want; it seems like you're now asking for KB to have a mitigation component other than its >=2s hard lock-out.  KB (as of June 5) always at least does KD to an immobilized target.  If you're saying you think -movespeed and/or -rech are more useful than KB... well, certainly I think so on behalf of my water/ corr or most of my melee, but not because of the mitigation aspect.  A slow that expires before the hold doesn't do anything unless it's reapplied; similarly, the >= 2s hard lockout needs to be reapplied to have an effect.

 

KB's very benefit -- that it forces enemies to reposition -- is also what makes it frustrating.  I tend to agree with the general feeling that the best solution is just to replace KB with KD/KU in as many cases as possible.

[Galaxy Brain]

Holds and Immobilizes can turn KB into KD, or even negate it all together which further digs into knockback as a side effect. Most other powers have a useful side effect at all times such as Slow. If an opponent is held or immobilized, the slow still applies for if/when they break free. Knockback has no such effect unless it is very baked in with Grav/'s impact.

 

I've had a lot of trouble pinning down what you want; it seems like you're now asking for KB to have a mitigation component other than its >=2s hard lock-out.  KB (as of June 5) always at least does KD to an immobilized target.  If you're saying you think -movespeed and/or -rech are more useful than KB... well, certainly I think so on behalf of my water/ corr or most of my melee, but not because of the mitigation aspect.  A slow that expires before the hold doesn't do anything unless it's reapplied; similarly, the >= 2s hard lockout needs to be reapplied to have an effect.

 

KB's very benefit -- that it forces enemies to reposition -- is also what makes it frustrating.  I tend to agree with the general feeling that the best solution is just to replace KB with KD/KU in as many cases as possible.

 

I hear you, maybe portraying my points as points can be more effective.

 

Problems with Knockback include:

• Needing to reposition yourself and the target
  
• ---This can be frustrating for not only yourself depending on the map, but for other players if the user is not careful with their knockback
  
• The control effect (forced animation) being done by KD/KU without the positioning drawback
  
• In cases where a target suddenly cannot take knockback (outside of Immobs that turn it into KD) it suddenly has no secondary effect unlike lingering debuffs / damage procs
  
• ---These last points in particular are frustrating as even while leveraging knockback correctly, other effects can be objectively better and easier to master
  

 

Possible perks Knockback could have:

• The forced animation could scale off of magnitude, so stronger Knockback will always control a target longer than Knockdown even if they are pushed a shorter distance due to geometry
  
• Knockback could have a damage component associated, thematically similar to powers such as Lift where the target takes damage if they get flung
  
• ---This bonus damage could be initiated when the KB procs, or after a small delay to mirror the target hitting something
  
• ---The main intent is that while KB will require you to reposition, it is offensively beneficial to soften the stigma/disadvantage of repositioning
  
• If a target suddenly cannot be knocked back, perhaps that's where the damage comes into play much like Gravity's Impact mechanic
  

 

In short, KD/KU is flat out better than knockback no matter which way you slice it. What I would like to see is make Knockback more powerful in the sense that it has stronger offensive and defensive edges over those two in some manner that make it more tolerable or at least "worth" learning how to use over them rather than just replacing knockback with KD/KU everywhere. If KB had benefits over them, then it would be a decision with that IO around whether you want to get rid of the positioning struggle but lose the edges, or vice versa.

[Sarrate]

Problems with Knockback include:

• Needing to reposition yourself and the target
  
• ---This can be frustrating for not only yourself depending on the map, but for other players if the user is not careful with their knockback
  
• The control effect (forced animation) being done by KD/KU without the positioning drawback
  
• In cases where a target suddenly cannot take knockback (outside of Immobs that turn it into KD) it suddenly has no secondary effect unlike lingering debuffs / damage procs
  
• ---These last points in particular are frustrating as even while leveraging knockback correctly, other effects can be objectively better and easier to master
  

 

I feel like "repositioning" is a little bit too generic, because that single line can have a lot of effects:

 

* Make it harder for melee characters to keep enemies occupied. (eg: enemies are out of aggro aura range.)

* Make some melee characters less survivable. (eg: An Invuln character losing minions feeding Invincibility.)

* Spreading out enemies making AoEs less efficient.

* Knocking enemies away from melee. (eg: Forces them to chase, potentially moving away from other grouped mobs.)

* Knocking enemies out to debuffs. This can both make enemies more dangerous (no longer in range of to hit / dmg debuffs) and take less damage (out of resistance debuff range).

 

There are just too many downsides to for a simple damage proc to solve. (A damage proc is also likely worth less than easier AoE and debuffs.) Given CoH's gameplay and mechanics, I'm really not sure how to make knockback more desirable in more situations.

 

-----

 

I'd also add, the worst type of knockback is "X% chance knockback" in AoE powers. On single target (guaranteed or chance) you're only knocking around a single enemy and not affecting most mobs. If you have a guaranteed AoE knockback, you can at least reposition an entire group in the same direction. With AoE chance for knockback, you'll be splitting groups in two which is the worst of everything.

[Yikes]

KB is a superb way of keeping that Boss out of melee range, which KD does not do.

 

just walk away while hes down bro

[PaxArcana]

.... you do realize, if they add more damage to the "you hit a wall" thing, they have to take away some of the base damage, to keep the powers balanced ... right?

[Galaxy Brain]

.... you do realize, if they add more damage to the "you hit a wall" thing, they have to take away some of the base damage, to keep the powers balanced ... right?

 

Not when you hit a wall, for when you simply proc knockback. The balance part is kinda tricky... but it seems to be universally agreed upon that Knockback, as directly compared to Knockdown/Knockup, is in a bad place and would need something to stand out from the competition. It would also always carry the displacement factor that makes it challenging, so it has to account for that as well.

[Legree]

KB is a superb way of keeping that Boss out of melee range, which KD does not do.

just walk away while hes down bro

 

In the time it takes to do that I can be queuing up my next attack while my target is still in the air.  If I'm fighting only one enemy I can reliably get a slow snipe off in the time it takes an enemy to be knocked back, land and stand up again.  If I'm fighting multiple opponents then knocking one out of melee takes him out of the fight completely for several seconds longer than a kockdown, so I can focus on any other enemy who is still in melee range.

 

There's also the fact that a knocked back enemy will frequently waste even more time using a weaker ranged attack before charging back into melee - reducing the incoming damage I'm taking and giving me time to queue up another knockback attack for when they do get close again.

 

Knockback - used correctly - is an invaluable tool.

[justicebeliever]

In the time it takes to do that I can be queuing up my next attack while my target is still in the air.  If I'm fighting only one enemy I can reliably get a slow snipe off in the time it takes an enemy to be knocked back, land and stand up again.  If I'm fighting multiple opponents then knocking one out of melee takes him out of the fight completely for several seconds longer than a kockdown, so I can focus on any other enemy who is still in melee range.

 

There's also the fact that a knocked back enemy will frequently waste even more time using a weaker ranged attack before charging back into melee - reducing the incoming damage I'm taking and giving me time to queue up another knockback attack for when they do get close again.

 

Knockback - used correctly - is an invaluable tool.

 

QFT