Universal [thesaurus word not found] KB2KD enhancements.

[Seed22]

Its the AoE knock that is the issue. My blizzard objectively does more damage than your explosive blast and energy torrent, full stop. 
 

If you knock things out of my blizzard, you are not helping in any way. But for the most part, I generally ignore it because I’m usually a mob or two ahead anyway. And when I’m not, I’ve gotten fast enough to get my things off(Heat loss and sleet/blizzard) before the knock fest begins, so im good. 
 

Nova is never an issue because nova does I think meaty damage for a nuke so most things are dead and bosses so close to death that the knockbacker can and will cause I wont, clean up their mess.

[Rudra]

25 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

Quote

Your suggestion is for a global Anti-KB toggle that would free up build slots, but result in Team Leaders demanding everyone go to the D or AP or wherever to buy the damned thing to avoid getting booted off teams because, again, that one person is in control of how you play your character.

 

No they are not.   You always can leave such a team and the team leader can always boot you from the team. 

That's the point. It takes away the KB player's ability to prove that KB can benefit the team because now the team leader can simply say "Go to Pocket D and turn off your KB or get booted". Every time.

[Psi-bolt]

8 minutes ago, Rudra said:

How do you rationalize that? Because that makes absolutely no sense to me.

 

This.

 

How is it difficult to see that the ability to switch back and forth between KB and KD at the push of a button improves options? 

 

Examples:

 

1. I'm playing my Energy Blaster and join a team where the team leader hates KB.  I'm annoyed because I love KB, but I need this Manticore TF for the accolade.  So I press the button for the toggle and as soon as the TF is done I can get my KB back without any hassle.
2. I'm playing the Apex TF and the team loves KB and thinks I'm a great player because I Hover over the spawns and carefully control what I'm doing.    Then I run into the final boss where flying can be deadly.   I don't want my KB to scatter the warriors (I don't think it can scatter the swords).  So I hit the toggle and finish the TF.  When we do Tin Mage next, I go right back to using KB.  

You see where I'm going with this?   A toggle allows you to switch back and forth giving you the option to use KD or KB at the situation merits.  Surely (and I'll stop calling you Shirley if you ask), you can recognize that sometimes KB isn't the best option and that there are opportunities in being able to change it to KD when needed.

 

 

[Psi-bolt]

16 minutes ago, Rudra said:

That's the point. It takes away the KB player's ability to prove that KB can benefit the team because now the team leader can simply say "Go to Pocket D and turn off your KB or get booted". Every time.

 

Doesn't communication solve this?  I create many teams so I will tell you how I would deal with such a situation.  Honestly, most times I would just ask someone if they wouldn't mind using the toggle.  I wouldn't kick them if they didn't, but I would ask.  If they said no and asserted that they can use KB effectively, I would give them a chance.   Now I know some people wouldn't but those same folks would be much more likely to just boot you right now.

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Psi-bolt said:

 

How is it difficult to see that the ability to switch back and forth between KB and KD at the push of a button improves options? 

 

Examples:

 

1. I'm playing my Energy Blaster and join a team where the team leader hates KB.  I'm annoyed because I love KB, but I need this Manticore TF for the accolade.  So I press the button for the toggle and as soon as the TF is done I can get my KB back without any hassle.
2. I'm playing the Apex TF and the team loves KB and thinks I'm a great player because I Hover over the spawns and carefully control what I'm doing.    Then I run into the final boss where flying can be deadly.   I don't want my KB to scatter the warriors (I don't think it can scatter the swords).  So I hit the toggle and finish the TF.  When we do Tin Mage next, I go right back to using KB.  

You see where I'm going with this?   A toggle allows you to switch back and forth giving you the option to use KD or KB at the situation merits.  Surely (and I'll stop calling you Shirley if you ask), you can recognize that sometimes KB isn't the best option and that there are opportunities in being able to change it to KD when needed.

 

 

Because you seem focused on a game world I have never seen to exist as what the outcome is/will be. As previously stated, on the occasions I tried teaming with my Energy Blast characters over the years, I was immediately booted from the team because I did not have KB to KD IOs slotted. I know not to use Explosive Blast while on a team unless the mobs are already in a corner so they don't scatter. I know to be above the fight for all my attacks, not just Energy Torrent. And the team leader and I could have discussed how to incorporate my character into his/her/their team in a beneficial manner. There was never any discussion though. Just some form of goodbye if the team leader had any decency or suddenly finding myself not on the team with no notice. Others have had better experiences in that they at least got to argue for the chance to show they can use KB effectively to benefit the team. And they got that chance because they didn't have the IOs and the team leader was willing to let them try rather than fund their getting the IOs. Make a toggle to simply change to KD? And now there isn't even the excuse of lack of funds for the IOs to be convince the team leader to give you a chance to show how KB can benefit the team.

 

It was never about KB players wanting to use KD when teamed and KB when solo. It was KB players being told to shove off for the sheer audacity of having KB. Yes, there are players that have no clue how to use KB and just blast things everywhere without planning or concern for how the team operates. And yes, I get the desire to rein that in. But dammit, I am so frustrated with the constant drive to remove KB from the game. And your suggestion for the toggle will drive KB players into corners of isolation to use their KB, forcing them even further basically into pure KB teams, as well as strip away the benefit of the Overwhelming Force and Sudden Acceleration sets as both an available means for mitigating KB and being an inf' sink.

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

 

Doesn't communication solve this?  I create many teams so I will tell you how I would deal with such a situation.  Honestly, most times I would just ask someone if they wouldn't mind using the toggle.  I wouldn't kick them if they didn't, but I would ask.  If they said no and asserted that they can use KB effectively, I would give them a chance.   Now I know some people wouldn't but those same folks would be much more likely to just boot you right now.

There is a reason why I mostly run solo. Experience has shown me that very few people are as willing to communicate with others as you are portraying. Because again, as I have already stated, I have never come across a team that was even willing to discuss anything about KB. In my case, it was always getting booted. I've heard friends getting told to slot the IOs or get booted, and then getting booted. It amazes me that you have such a "everyone is welcome" view of KB in the game when everything I have seen is the exact opposite.

 

(Edit: And yes, I have tried to open a dialogue a few times with the team leader after getting booted. And after my first tell in response, found my character had been added to the person's ignore list. So again, your position absolutely amazes [baffles?] me.)

 

Edited Tuesday at 06:00 PM by Rudra

[Psi-bolt]

19 minutes ago, Rudra said:

There is a reason why I mostly run solo. Experience has shown me that very few people are as willing to communicate with others as you are portraying. Because again, as I have already stated, I have never come across a team that was even willing to discuss anything about KB. In my case, it was always getting booted. I've heard friends getting told to slot the IOs or get booted, and then getting booted. It amazes me that you have such a "everyone is welcome" view of KB in the game when everything I have seen is the exact opposite.

 

(Edit: And yes, I have tried to open a dialogue a few times with the team leader after getting booted. And after my first tell in response, found my character had been added to the person's ignore list. So again, your position absolutely amazes [baffles?] me.)

 

 

Wow, that's terrible, I'm not defending that.  Honestly most times now I just don't even bring it up when someone has Energy Blast or is a PB.  But I do see that a lot of players have used self-help in the form of not even playing Energy Blast or Peacebringers.   Although with both of those sets that could also have a lot to do with the effectiveness of those sets outside of the KB.

 

Believe it or not, I want to support the use of those sets and powers.   I think for the average player, having their KB turned to KD would be positive for their gameplay.  

[macskull]

33 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Yes, there are players that have no clue how to use KB and just blast things everywhere without planning or concern for how the team operates.

Yep, these are the players that ruin it for everyone else, and they’re probably not a minority. If I were a player who was constantly having to deal with that on my teams, of course I’d probably have a “kick on sight” attitude. I wouldn’t want to take the chance that yet another random player is going to start flinging mobs around.

 

Me personally? I don’t really care. If you’re actually using KB in a way that is beneficial (or, at the very least, not actively detrimental) you’re going to be just fine on one of my teams.

 

At any rate, one thing OP’s ask would allow is to add a bit more variety in blast sets since it would open up another opportunity for players who want to try Energy but don’t want to have to pay the slot tax to get decent performance. In short, it makes another set viable for performance-minded players while also leaving that set unchanged for everyone else, which is good for the game.

[Steampunkette]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

How do you rationalize that? Because that makes absolutely no sense to me.

He rationalizes it because you can choose to slot all your powers with KB to KD -OR- grab the Toggle, but in either case, fuck you if you WANT to have KB! 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

This.

Just seems like the easiest solution.

 

2 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

No, this doesn't deal with the problem.   You assume that only melee players have a problem with KB.  That's not true.  When I'm playing Blasters with location AoEs, it is annoying to have someone run in and Nova everyone out of range.  Also your toggle eliminates Knockdown and Knockup, both very good controls that we should be encouraging folks to use (via a free toggle at the START vendor!)  Finally, the cost just encourages booting people with KB which is what we're trying to lessen.

Feel free to grab the toggle and then run into melee, then.

 

It's what most Blasters, Corruptors, and Dominators do, anyway. And on high end spreadsheet-managed 4-star teams it's THE standard practice to make sure everyone gets hit by every buff and AoE heal. (Especially the Kinetics with Fulcrum Shift, Transference, and Siphon Power)

 

But I like how as soon as it's a matter of you changing how you play the game it's untenable. But everyone ELSE should shift their playstyle and/or build to accommodate you.

 

Suuuuper telling.

 

There's nothing that will lessen people who hate KB kicking people off of teams because those people enjoy KB. Nor will it lessen people who hate KB from quitting teams run by people who like KB. (Which, I notice, is a possibility you don't even acknowledge...)

 

The only thing your toggle will do is make it a mandatory purchase for anyone with KB because people who hate KB will scream bloody murder about it and resist any cost or change to their own activities in favor of demanding EVERYONE ELSE change how they do things for your benefit.

 

If you don't like knockback, you grab the KB Protection stuff for yourself. Not for everyone else.

[macskull]

3 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

If you don't like knockback, you grab the KB Protection stuff for yourself. Not for everyone else.

OP is literally asking for another option to do exactly that, though? No one’s forcing you to use it.

[Steampunkette]

2 minutes ago, macskull said:

OP is literally asking for another option to do exactly that, though? No one’s forcing you to use it.

OP is asking for another option for IO slotting.

 

Which will result in more pressure from teams to change your build using the new IO.

 

Which is annoying AF and will result in more threads for "Remove all KB!!!" as apparent Dev support for the anti-KB sentiment grows.

 

At least a toggle that you put on yourself and go into melee changes your own playstyle and your own activity, not someone else's, even though it also overrides their preferences for KB. It'd at least be unobtrusive and rely on the Anti-KB squad to do something THEMSELVES rather than pressuring everyone else to change their behavior and builds.

[Psi-bolt]

8 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

OP is asking for another option for IO slotting.

 

Which will result in more pressure from teams to change your build using the new IO.

 

Which is annoying AF and will result in more threads for "Remove all KB!!!" as apparent Dev support for the anti-KB sentiment grows.

 

At least a toggle that you put on yourself and go into melee changes your own playstyle and your own activity, not someone else's, even though it also overrides their preferences for KB. It'd at least be unobtrusive and rely on the Anti-KB squad to do something THEMSELVES rather than pressuring everyone else to change their behavior and builds.

 

I think the problem you're missing is that the OP and me, don't want this to deal with other players at all.  I want easier ways to eliminate KB on my own powers.  I don't really care that much what other people do.   I guess we're just talking over each other at this point.   

 

I see where you're coming from, but can you see that not everyone likes KB and may want to play say a Peacebringer and eliminate the KB from the set.  For their OWN play, not for anyone else.  Sure we can do that now, all we're asking for is some easier way to do so.

[Steampunkette]

18 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

 

I think the problem you're missing is that the OP and me, don't want this to deal with other players at all.  I want easier ways to eliminate KB on my own powers.  I don't really care that much what other people do.   I guess we're just talking over each other at this point.   

 

I see where you're coming from, but can you see that not everyone likes KB and may want to play say a Peacebringer and eliminate the KB from the set.  For their OWN play, not for anyone else.  Sure we can do that now, all we're asking for is some easier way to do so.

Which is great...

 

Except you're asking for it in a way that increases pressure on everyone ELSE as well.

 

"You don't even have to lose your set bonuses! Just slot this IO into every one of your KB Powers!"

 

My suggestion allows the person who doesn't like KB (whether for themselves, or for everyone else) to change their own stuff without pressure increasing on other people.

[Psyonico]

So, back on subject for a second...

 

Assume such an enhancement could exist that would give the bonus for whatever set you had slotted...

 

What happens when you frankenslot said power? Do you get the extra bonus from every set that you used?

[macskull]

5 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

Which will result in more pressure from teams to change your build using the new IO.

Can we get serious now? You are under no obligation to change your build due to pressure from a team, just like a team leader is under no obligation to keep you on their team if they feel the actions you're taking are detrimental to their team.

 

Before the existence of KB/KD converters:

• Knockback has a bad rap.
• People who use knockback badly are kicked from teams, people who use it well aren't.
• People who want to play sets with lots of knock effects but don't want to have to deal with positioning and map geometry quirks to utilize it well simply decide not to play those sets.

After the existence of KB/KD converters:

• Knockback has a bad rap.
• People who use knockback badly are kicked from teams, people who use it well aren't.
• People who want to play sets with lots of knock effects but don't want to have to deal with positioning and map geometry quirks to utilize it well are able to play those sets because KB/KD converters allow them to do so.

After the existence of OP's proposed "universal enhancements:"

• Knockback has a bad rap.
• People who use knockback badly are kicked from teams, people who use it well aren't.
• People who want to play sets with lots of knock effects but don't want to have to deal with positioning and map geometry quirks to utilize it well are able to play those sets because this new "universal enhancement" allows them to do so.

[Rudra]

10 minutes ago, macskull said:

Before the existence of KB/KD converters:

• Knockback has a bad rap.
• People who use knockback badly are kicked from teams, people who use it well aren't.
• People who want to play sets with lots of knock effects but don't want to have to deal with positioning and map geometry quirks to utilize it well simply decide not to play those sets.

Before the existence of KB to KD convertors:

•  Knockback gained a bad reputation
• People who use Knockback at all are kicked from teams. People who even have KB sets are told to take a hike even before any missions. People who use it well have to fight for the chance to prove it.
• People who want to play sets with lots of knock effects but don't want to have to deal with positioning and map geometry considerations to utilize it well still do so, but find they need to play other sets if they want any chance at teaming.

 

14 minutes ago, macskull said:

After the existence of KB/KD converters:

• Knockback has a bad rap.
• People who use knockback badly are kicked from teams, people who use it well aren't.
• People who want to play sets with lots of knock effects but don't want to have to deal with positioning and map geometry quirks to utilize it well are able to play those sets because KB/KD converters allow them to do so.

After the existence of KB to KD convertors:

• Knockback's bad reputation is very much cemented with new players being told in Atlas Park to abandon their Energy Blast character and play something worthwhile
• People who use KB badly are kicked from teams if they can even get on them. People who even have KB sets are still told to take a hike even before any missions. People who use it well are now told to go slot KB to KD convertors or take a hike. Apparently, some lucky few get to not experience this.
• People who want to play sets with lots of knock effects but don't want to have to deal with positioning and map geometry considerations to utilize it well still do so, but must now either play solo, somehow find a KB specific team, or slot KB to KD convertors to find acceptance.

18 minutes ago, macskull said:

After the existence of OP's proposed "universal enhancements:"

• Knockback has a bad rap.
• People who use knockback badly are kicked from teams, people who use it well aren't.
• People who want to play sets with lots of knock effects but don't want to have to deal with positioning and map geometry quirks to utilize it well are able to play those sets because this new "universal enhancement" allows them to do so.

After the addition of OP's proposed "universal enhancements":

• Knockback will still have a bad reputation.
• People who use KB at all on a team will be told to slot the universal enhancements just like they are currently told to slot Sudden Acceleration KB to KD and Overwhelming Force KB to KD.
• People who want to play with lots of knock effects but don't want to have to deal with positioning and map geometry considerations to utilize it well will still do so, but must still either play solo, somehow find a KB specific team, or slot a KB to KD convertor to find acceptance.

You are conflating KD, which finds universal acceptance, with lots of knock effects but not wanting to deal with positioning and map geometry. The OP will change not a thing other than to make it possible to slot frankenslot sets and get more set bonuses than the frankenslotting allows.

[Bionic_Flea]

There's a simple rule of knockback that everyone should follow: 

 

You knock it, you kill it. 

 

No one needs to chase after it or taunt or kill it for you.  You will either learn to use KB well enough, or die until you do.

[macskull]

11 minutes ago, Rudra said:

somehow find a KB specific team

So... form their own teams, which is the standard answer whenever someone complains about the behavior of someone else on their team? To repeat the part of my post you didn't quote: You are under no obligation to change your build due to pressure from a team, just like a team leader is under no obligation to keep you on their team if they feel the actions you're taking are detrimental to their team.

 

This whole "even people that use knockback well are being kicked from teams" thing isn't a widespread thing that is happening. It's just not. Either you're not actually as good as you think you are at using knockback, or you just have colossally bad luck with the teams you join.

[macskull]

15 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

There's a simple rule of knockback that everyone should follow: 

 

You knock it, you kill it. 

 

No one needs to chase after it or taunt or kill it for you.  You will either learn to use KB well enough, or die until you do.

New suggestion: all knockback now applies a 30-second mag 10,000 taunt on affected targets.

[Bionic_Flea]

7 minutes ago, macskull said:

all knockback now applies a 30-second mag 10,000 taunt on affected targets.

 

All problems solved.

 

[Rudra]

20 minutes ago, macskull said:

So... form their own teams, which is the standard answer whenever someone complains about the behavior of someone else on their team? To repeat the part of my post you didn't quote: You are under no obligation to change your build due to pressure from a team, just like a team leader is under no obligation to keep you on their team if they feel the actions you're taking are detrimental to their team.

The discussion is about the OP's proposed universal KB to KD. You made some very erroneous comments in the post I responded to. If you want to fixate on the we are under no obligation to change our builds due to pressure from a team, I would like to point out that you are correct. Players do not have to change their builds due to team pressure. They just either have to resign themselves to not teaming or hope to find a KB team.

 

20 minutes ago, macskull said:

This whole "even people that use knockback well are being kicked from teams" thing isn't a widespread thing that is happening. It's just not. Either you're not actually as good as you think you are at using knockback, or you just have colossally bad luck with the teams you join.

I don't take KB characters on teams. I have given up even trying. My KB characters are strictly for solo play to me. Because I got tired of being asked if I had KB to KD convertors slotted and then getting booted from the team when I said no. Again, before even my first mission with those teams. There were players that used to be friends of mine that full on stopped playing because of how their KB characters got treated.

 

Edit: And again, the creation of universal KB to KD enhancements as portrayed by the OP will do absolutely nothing about how KB is perceived in the game. The only thing it will change is how many set bonuses players can get from frankenslotting their powers. Which as far as I can tell, is the entire point of the OP. Not to address anything at all about KB, but to give the author more set bonuses from his/her/their preferred sets while slotting KB to KD convertors.

 

Edited Wednesday at 02:12 AM by Rudra
Edited to remove mistyped "I" from "KD".

[Steampunkette]

Before KB to KD enhancements:

 

Some people disliked KB. And would grumble and gripe. Occasionally they would demand the players who had KB change their behavior by either not using their KB powers, or try to put enemies in corners. If they happened to be the team leader the worst of the Anti-KB contingent would kick KB characters off the team. Either silently so as to not get into arguments about it, or while loudly stating their opinion.

 

After KB to KD enhancements:

 

The Anti-KB crowd grew in vocality. Everything that had happened, previously, still happened. Only now sometimes people would demand you change your build to add in some KB to KD enhancements to increase their enjoyment of your character's presence. They used the existence of these IOs as "Proof" that KB was a massive systemic problem and not an issue felt by a small but vocal portion of the playerbase. That the Devs supported their position and you 'have' to use those IOs to be a good team player.

 

If this idea is implemented:

 

Same thing as before. Only now frankenslotting with the KB to KD Universal IO Type might become a part of the overall game's Meta where people 3 and 2 slot sets, then slap the KB to KD Universal IO to squeeze out a 4-set and 3-set bonus out of a 6 slotted power.

 

This idea will not fix anything, might open up a can of worms on power creep.

[Snarky]

I hate these conversations so very, very much…

[tidge]

I dislike the conversations that are so intensely focused on some version of "Knockback is ruining the game for me, and for players who think like me".

 

I don't mind knockback, and I think how it shows up in the game makes the game feel more like a comic book universe. I have no empathy for players who feel that their peak efficiency is being destroyed because OMG they found themselves teamed with someone who does KB/repel/Fold Space/AoE Immob/fishcakes.

 

Having written the above... there are limited circumstances involving KB that I think the game is obligated to address instead of players... and it is when critters end up being 'off map' because of KB. This is very rare, but it does happen... and it can happen even when KB is "converted" to KD. I don't expect the game to actually be modified to prevent (or mitigate) this, but it is the ONLY example of Knockback is actually preventing completion of missions/arc/whatever. 99.9% of all other complaints basically boil down to "other people ruining my game".

 

I will add that there are a small handful of specific content when poorly controlled KB can make the content a LOT harder than it needs to be... but this is true of a lot of playstyles that have nothing to do with KB and everything to do with player awareness. For example, the conclusion of Positron 2 can require a lot more effort if certain critters get knocked back into other critters (especially in the final fight)... and since this is a low-level TF in which higher-level characters will not have access to most of their powers (and likely not have all set bonuses either), I can see why some players get even more frustrated... but again... it's not like the game is so hard that something like an Energy Blast attack is physically hurting players.

[golstat2003]

On 8/12/2025 at 2:34 PM, macskull said:

Yep, these are the players that ruin it for everyone else, and they’re probably not a minority. If I were a player who was constantly having to deal with that on my teams, of course I’d probably have a “kick on sight” attitude. I wouldn’t want to take the chance that yet another random player is going to start flinging mobs around.

 

Me personally? I don’t really care. If you’re actually using KB in a way that is beneficial (or, at the very least, not actively detrimental) you’re going to be just fine on one of my teams.

 

At any rate, one thing OP’s ask would allow is to add a bit more variety in blast sets since it would open up another opportunity for players who want to try Energy but don’t want to have to pay the slot tax to get decent performance. In short, it makes another set viable for performance-minded players while also leaving that set unchanged for everyone else, which is good for the game.

 

Personally, I don't give a shit what you do as long as you can deal with the aggro you get. COH teams move so fast that stuff flying all over the place I've seen to be the norm this days. Most of the time I like it (feels more like a comic book than a sterile mmo where we wait for the tank to gather or herd things) so I just let it go, as long as folks aren't dyeing.

 

On a 4-5 start Hard mode run, different story. But for regular COH play, I think folks complain way too much about KB.