Enhancement sets - would a set of 7 or 8 within a set make sense?

[Ukase]

I had a thought, and it keeps coming back to me every time I use mids and slot a purple set. We see the damage number go red, and often times the endurance or accuracy remain white, which tells us there's room for more buff in those categories before the diminishing returns gets involved. 
(or maybe it means something else? That's what I've always taken it to mean) 

So, what about this idea? Figured I'd ask here before I suggest it properly. 

What if we got some new enhancement set with 7 or 8 enhancements in it, but since we can't slot more than 6, that would leave players with a little more choice in what to slot in the power? 

The impact on marketing, in particular the converting of IOs within the set, if you were looking for that proc, you'd certainly, over time, burn more converters to get that proc you wanted, assuming the set had a proc in it. Burning more converters is a good idea, because converters are super cheap now. Most of the converters on the AH now are what I would call old converters. I think there's about 60K worth that are listed for something crazy for the price now, like at 75 or 80k each. Maybe more. So, even though the supply is healthy with a total of around 100K, it's really (at least, that's my thinking) only 40k that are priced at or below 70K.) When converters are burned, that leaves marketers and players with a choice - earn more, or burn through the stashes of hero merits/reward merits they have. Either way - it means more opportunities for teammates when you might not find them otherwise. 

I was just converting a few IOs a character had after crafting this morning, and I was thinking, this oblit proc refuses to come up. Guess I should be glad there's only 5 that aren't the proc instead of 8 or more. 

It's probably a stupid idea for reasons I haven't considered, but the most obvious ones are Dev time and art time. Someone has to come up with what bonuses the set would have, and find a design for it. And then install it into the game without breaking anything else. And add it to the merit vendor in whatever category it belongs, as well as the AH. I suppose if it were a standard invention set, as opposed to universal damage, it would also need to be added to the various drop pools for mission/tf completion. At least, I would think so. 

Alternatively - consider a set like Steadfast Protection. There's only 3 in it. It kind of makes sense, because it tops at level 30, and in the lower levels, you usually don't have slots to burn. (at any level, really) But what if it had 6 enhancement in it, but the set bonuses remained at 3? Odds are you'd still just use the unique and maybe the kb with it, or the other one. But maybe, if the 4th were a resist/recharge, or a straight endurance, you might use another piece. Which means that slot for that piece has to come from somewhere else. 

It means more variety in builds, so that's a good thing too. 

Anyways, just a thought. 

[Chance Jackson]

I'm all for more player choice, create a radio button for expanded set selections in IO conversion & there should be no problem 

[BigGotter]

18 minutes ago, Ukase said:

I had a thought, and it keeps coming back to me every time I use mids and slot a purple set. We see the damage number go red, and often times the endurance or accuracy remain white, which tells us there's room for more buff in those categories before the diminishing returns gets involved. 
(or maybe it means something else? That's what I've always taken it to mean) 

I personally use Vigor Core Paragon in my incarnate Alpha slot to fix most of what IO sets are missing. Accuracy/Endurance/Healing. It is my 7th slot basically

[tidge]

Isn't it primarily Endurance Reduction (and a little bit Accuracy) that is deemphasized in the Purple sets? This seems like a specific choice that only seems to affect my builds when I want to frankenslot with %damage.

[Yomo Kimyata]

2 hours ago, Ukase said:

What if we got some new enhancement set with 7 or 8 enhancements in it, but since we can't slot more than 6, that would leave players with a little more choice in what to slot in the power? 

 

Isn't this what frankenslotting is for?  I don't have an issue at all with this, but it would really attract people to this one set and away from others.  I also would hate to hear the haggling over the set bonuses.  Also, I think creative builds are one of the few ways left to reward players who want to put a little thought into solving that puzzle.

 

I'd like to see more of a diversity of ways to get HOs/DSOs at lower levels.  They are not fungible across level, so you wouldn't get people farming for a threat DSO at level 10 then flipping it for a profit at lvl 50.  People would complain because they would outlevel them, but people would complain regardless.

[Ukase]

9 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Isn't this what frankenslotting is for?

For me, Frankenslotting is in pursuit of specific set bonuses. Take recovery, for example. My poor scrapper, being controlled by an idiot was constantly running out of endurance despite having the Perf shifter +end, panacea and miracle uniques. So, I looked for sets that would boost the attributes I needed, as well as provide a set bonus that would boost recover, or give an end discount, or increase max end. Anything to help. 

So, with armor, I generally don't need more than 4 slots to get those diminishing returns start to creep in, depending on what level my character is. So, I might look at my attacks, and in lieu of slapping an end reduction in there, I might slot 2 bruising blows, and 2 glad strikes. And that's all fine and good. 

There are some sets where the slotting of the 6 is not that bitter of a pill, because all the sets bonuses are desirable. 



I like this new set for it's bonuses. But the accuracy and endurance are not as good as they should be or could be. What if there were a 7th or 8th piece we could use instead of the damage/recharge? Like an Acc/end/recharge? Then the damage numbers go down from 99 to 95.5 if we take out the dam/recharge. Recharge goes down, too. But by using this fantasized 7th piece, the numbers would be closer to the diminishing return values and be a more effective set. And you'd still get all the set bonuses you desired. 

(And by no means would I suggest slotting this particular set in that particular power, it's just something I slapped together for demonstration)

While I agree in general varied builds are a good thing, I also think it would be good to have a few sets that are just no brainers. Either design them so they come to the edge of Diminishing Returns, or don't design them at all. The fact that a purple set doesn't do this strikes me as odd. I get that they have recovery and accuracy in the bonuses (at least most of them do...the pet and confuse very rares are a little different, I think) so, the designers of those sets may have had that in mind. But it still strikes me as odd that sets aren't designed to be slotted in their entirety; that is why they're a set. At least, that's the way my brain thinks. 

Anyway, just a thought exercise. Not a suggestion, yet. 

[Troo]

2 hours ago, Ukase said:

So, what about this idea?

 

Purple set bonuses often include whats missing.

The stacking IO set bonuses start to make some individual enhancement aspects less important. Thats why some folks are able to leverage procs to an extreme, at times forgoing any individual enhancement stats.

 

 

 

 

[Yomo Kimyata]

1 minute ago, Ukase said:

For me, Frankenslotting is in pursuit of specific set bonuses.

 

Interesting, for me it's more about the pursuit of enhancements.  Example, level 50+5 A/E Multi Strike.

[Ukase]

9 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

level 50+5 A/E Multi Strike.

So, if I lose the 6th slot in the Cupid set for this particular IO - it does address the deficiency of the buffs the set gives - but it loses the 6th set bonus. I just don't like to forced into trade-offs like that. Maybe that's just me, and if I didn't have to choose, the game would even be easier than it is now. (to hear some of these newer players, wow. It's so hard! I have to remind myself it was tough for me when I first started and had no idea what I didn't know.)  

I tend to consider IO sets for their set bonuses before the attributes are considered. If they don't add value for the character with the set bonus, seems like it makes more sense to just slot an HO. Granted, I suppose it's better to have some kind of movement buff (I never chase that, I have SS...why would I need more?) than nothing. It just depends on your goals. I just want the invention sets to buff each attribute to the diminishing return edge. Or at least be balanced across all attributes, rather than 90% in damage and 60% in accuracy. Why not 75 and 75? 

I suppose it does make builds more interesting in trying to navigate how to boost various attributes with set bonuses from other sets, to offset the weaknesses from a different set. 

[MonteCarla]

There's some sets with really nice bonuses but not so great enhancement values when you slot the whole set.

Mako's Bite and Artillery don't give ED-capped damage until you're almost at level 50, but do give big +Ranged Defence at 6 slots. I wrestled with this with an early Blaster.

Obliteration gives you all the damage an recharge, but a tiny +15% End Reduction from the quadruple, but gives a really nice +Recharge and +Melee Def at 5 and 6 slots.

 

This gives you a source of build tension. Do I chase the set bonuses and make up for the shortcomings in the enhancements, or forego the 6th slot and frankenslot something better in there like a */Dam from another set or a HamiO or something?

 

Some sets with a good bonus are sub-6 slots (eg Kinetic Combat and Entropic Chaos are both a bit light on +Acc for the power) but you can shore this up with an extra slot of something else, or just live with it.

 

If these sets had a 7th or 8th member, that tension goes away and the choice is a no-brainer.

 

For most sets (eg Thunderstrike, Crushing Impact) there is already no choice - both the set bonuses and enhancement values they provide are good.

 

So, yeah, I'm not really sure what we'd gain from this? A set with 7 or 8 members just allows you to prioritise End Redux, Recharge or Acc in a power, kind of like I already do when 5-slotting Crushing Impact?

 

[Yomo Kimyata]

3 hours ago, Ukase said:

I just don't like to forced into trade-offs like that. Maybe that's just me, and if I didn't have to choose, the game would even be easier than it is now. (to hear some of these newer players, wow. It's so hard! I have to remind myself it was tough for me when I first started and had no idea what I didn't know.)  

 

I thought that was the entire point of sets and bonuses, to evaluate and choose which trade-off worked best for you at that point in time?  I mean, long before sets and bonii were a thing, you *could* slot an attack with 6xdamage until they introduced ED, which was a signal to me that the developers at the time were advocating, even enforcing trade-offs.  But there is a different set of priorities nowadays, and player retention isn't necessarily one of them, so who knows what could come out?  In theory, they could get rid of the entire set system and just institute an enhancement system that let you automatically adjust enhancement levels through a slider.  I doubt, however, that making everything at 100% would be an option.

[Major_Decoy]

5 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

Isn't this what frankenslotting is for?  I don't have an issue at all with this, but it would really attract people to this one set and away from others.  I also would hate to hear the haggling over the set bonuses.  Also, I think creative builds are one of the few ways left to reward players who want to put a little thought into solving that puzzle.

 

I'd like to see more of a diversity of ways to get HOs/DSOs at lower levels.  They are not fungible across level, so you wouldn't get people farming for a threat DSO at level 10 then flipping it for a profit at lvl 50.  People would complain because they would outlevel them, but people would complain regardless.

 

I think there are some sets it makes more sense than others in. Sudden Acceleration, for Example. If you six slot Sudden Acceleration, then the Knock-back to knock-down is negating part of every other enhancement in the set. If there was a seventh enhancement that you could slot instead of knock-back to knock-down then it wouldn't be a largely self-defeating set.

Edited Wednesday at 10:22 PM by Major_Decoy

[Ukase]

Fair enough, guys. It was just an idea in my head. I see the points you make. 

[Biff Pow]

Adding damage enhancements to control sets would be nice.

[tidge]

When I have sad feels abut enhancement set options, it is usually because:

1. Almost all enemy-affecting powers benefit from Accuracy and Endurance Reduction, but there are relatively few such dual enhancements set pieces available at 50
2. A 6th piece that only boosts a single attribute that is already enhanced above 90% is mostly wasted
3. Non-damage enemy affecting %procs are generally a poorer choice than %damage (primarily because of duration... it certainly feels like enemies most don't take 10 seconds to regen the damage from a %damage piece)
4. Player-affecting buffs from %procs are typically less useful that other %procs
5. Some sets just don't have (m)any choices for a piece that would be useful in powers...typically I look at Threat and Fear... when threat was reworked I feel like a new pair of sets with different combis was added, certainly recogizing that many threat powers require accuracy and/or endurance reduction. (See #1)

[BasiliskXVIII]

8 hours ago, tidge said:

When I have sad feels abut enhancement set options, it is usually because:

1. Almost all enemy-affecting powers benefit from Accuracy and Endurance Reduction, but there are relatively few such dual enhancements set pieces available at 50
2. A 6th piece that only boosts a single attribute that is already enhanced above 90% is mostly wasted
3. Non-damage enemy affecting %procs are generally a poorer choice than %damage (primarily because of duration... it certainly feels like enemies most don't take 10 seconds to regen the damage from a %damage piece)
4. Player-affecting buffs from %procs are typically less useful that other %procs
5. Some sets just don't have (m)any choices for a piece that would be useful in powers...typically I look at Threat and Fear... when threat was reworked I feel like a new pair of sets with different combis was added, certainly recogizing that many threat powers require accuracy and/or endurance reduction. (See #1)

On top of this you can also tell that for some sets they were kinda going "uh, we don't have enough characteristics to boost to give any diversity to this at all." Hence why you have preposterous recharge bonuses on every defence and resist set with only a vanishing few defence powers where that will have any noticeable effect.

[MonteCarla]

2 hours ago, BasiliskXVIII said:

On top of this you can also tell that for some sets they were kinda going "uh, we don't have enough characteristics to boost to give any diversity to this at all." Hence why you have preposterous recharge bonuses on every defence and resist set with only a vanishing few defence powers where that will have any noticeable effect.

 

If you slot a defensive toggle with 4 pieces of Luck of the Gambler or Unbreakable Guard, you still get better power slotting values than 3 Res/Def and 1 End Redux SO's. So I don't mind the "wasted" +Recharge in the power for a normal toggle.

Some toggles like Manouvers, Dispersion Bubble and Sonic Dispersion have non-negligible cooldowns. They're all 15 seconds base, so having some recharge slotted is great when you run out of end mid fight and your toggles drop.

And when you do want that +Recharge (Fortitude, Farsight, Force of Nature and other god modes etc) it's really important that the main defensive sets carry these bonuses.

 

So I think the presence of +Recharge in these sets is a conscious design decision, rather than scraping the bottom of the barrel. What would the alternative be? Def, Def/End, End and ... ?

[MonteCarla]

18 hours ago, Biff Pow said:

Adding damage enhancements to control sets would be nice.

 

Do I slot 4 pieces of Basilisk's Gaze (for bonuses) and 2 boosted damage IO's in Shocking Grasp/Freezing Touch, or 5 Crushing Impacts and a Hold IO, or damage proc? 

Do I slot my Controller's ST hold with Basilisk x4 plus damage or Decimation x5 and a Hold IO, or..?

I like decisions like this.
Adding damage to control sets could give us one best solution for everything, which wouldn't be great.

[Major_Decoy]

5 minutes ago, MonteCarla said:

And when you do want that +Recharge (Fortitude, Farsight, Force of Nature and other god modes etc) it's really important that the main defensive sets carry these bonuses.

Defense/Recharge is vital for Mind Link. Mind link cannot slot recharge, so it ignores the recharge aspects of Hamidon Enhancements and the Alphaslot, but it doesn't ignore the recharge aspect of invention origin enhancements.

[Major_Decoy]

But, honestly, I think this would be a good change for Archetype Origin sets, if there's a way to make it so you can't slot more than six enhancements of the same set.

 

Right now, unless I'm mistaken, then are mostly two types of sets, Masterminds have Command of the Mastermind which almost follows the damage scheme, except with dam/end instead of dam/rech, and Mark of Supremecy which is nothing like the other sets at all.

 

Acc/Dam, Dam/Rech, Acc/Dam/Rech, Dam/End/Rech, Acc/Dam/End/Rech, Rech/proc (for damage powers)

Acc/Con, Con/Rech, End/Rech, Con/End/Rech, Acc/Con/End/Rech, Rech/proc (for control powers)

 

These sets are good enough that most people do try slot them both already, but what if a blaster could choose between acc/dam or acc/range? Or a tanker deciding to use Taunt/End/Rech?

[BasiliskXVIII]

2 minutes ago, MonteCarla said:

So I think the presence of +Recharge in these sets is a conscious design decision, rather than scraping the bottom of the barrel. What would the alternative be? Def, Def/End, End and ... ?

Well, that's kind of my point. If all you care about is raw defence and nothing else, you can generally have that covered in 3 IOs. If every set had 6 non-proc IOs, they would have no choice but to make them all pretty much the same because there's nothing else that can go in there. I suspect this is the reason why so many of these have a global bonus, because they don't have any other boosts to put in the set. Frankly, I'm a little surprised we don't have more 4- or 5-piece defensive sets.

[Biff Pow]

1 hour ago, MonteCarla said:

 

Do I slot 4 pieces of Basilisk's Gaze (for bonuses) and 2 boosted damage IO's in Shocking Grasp/Freezing Touch, or 5 Crushing Impacts and a Hold IO, or damage proc? 

Do I slot my Controller's ST hold with Basilisk x4 plus damage or Decimation x5 and a Hold IO, or..?

I like decisions like this.
Adding damage to control sets could give us one best solution for everything, which wouldn't be great.

 

I mean, you could still do those slotting choices, plus a lot more if damage were added to control sets. Controllers and Dominators especially would have a lot more options, but it opens things up for everyone. Maybe an Energy Melee Scrapper wants to focus on the stuns without sacrificing too much damage, for example. 

[tidge]

The most common powers I use 6-pieces of a Defensive set (with mucho rechargo) is Mind Link/Link Minds, or a long recharge power like Unleash Potential.

[Scarlet Shocker]

I like the idea a great deal, with the proviso that the new sets (I presume they'd have to be new, rather than adding to pre-existing sets) offer greater variance than most sets do now. 

[mistagoat]

Yes please! That would finally let me get the 6pc Stupefy Def bonus without using the awful chance of KB proc!