Hail Emperor Cole!

[Scarlet Shocker]

Slightly diverting from my previous "Retcon" thread and other discussions, I wanted to express that but didn't want to divert from that. 

 

One of the biggest problems with GR is that it fails to allow you to make a realistic choice. 

 

As a Praetorian, you've lived your life in the zones, and absorbed the culture, propaganda, and ambience of the world, knowing you're born in a state of total war against the Hamidon and other external forces, but you're not allowed to enjoy and progress that vision. You're not permitted to discover what an utter wanker Cole turns out to be and yet say "I'll stand by him because the alternatives are worse." There's a strange parallel there, which some might consider ironic. 

 

I have yet to grasp why most Praetorian citizens would fail to back Cole. I admit I'm no Lorologist, but you spend your life living and learning and drinking Enriche, which is literally the coolaid - and the real resistance is run by a deluded madman and managed by losers who can't even speak English. 

 

There's literally no attraction for a citizen to join the Resistance and the only reason for a powered character to join is because you've got to make that choice at the point of creation/training. 

 

Cole keeps the city safe, he's got a capable team backing him up and keeps us all safe. Let's honour him in the right way. 

 

And then he blows the whole fucking zone up. What kind of twatt does that? 

 

Am I the only one who hates the story? 

 

 

 

[Frozen Burn]

5 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

Slightly diverting from my previous "Retcon" thread and other discussions, I wanted to express that but didn't want to divert from that. 

 

One of the biggest problems with GR is that it fails to allow you to make a realistic choice. 

 

As a Praetorian, you've lived your life in the zones, and absorbed the culture, propaganda, and ambience of the world, knowing you're born in a state of total war against the Hamidon and other external forces, but you're not allowed to enjoy and progress that vision. You're not permitted to discover what an utter wanker Cole turns out to be and yet say "I'll stand by him because the alternatives are worse." There's a strange parallel there, which some might consider ironic. 

 

I have yet to grasp why most Praetorian citizens would fail to back Cole. I admit I'm no Lorologist, but you spend your life living and learning and drinking Enriche, which is literally the coolaid - and the real resistance is run by a deluded madman and managed by losers who can't even speak English. 

 

There's literally no attraction for a citizen to join the Resistance and the only reason for a powered character to join is because you've got to make that choice at the point of creation/training. 

 

Cole keeps the city safe, he's got a capable team backing him up and keeps us all safe. Let's honour him in the right way. 

 

And then he blows the whole fucking zone up. What kind of twatt does that? 

 

Am I the only one who hates the story? 

 

 

 

 

Sorry you're not a fan.  I personally like all the content.  But i see how you might think / feel that way. 

 

Yes, creating a character and then right from the gate, you join the resistance or remain loyal.  But you do the same in heroes and villains too - you pick either side upon creation. 

 

The difference with GR is, in the Praetorian tutorial, you get some decent writing and little bit of story to lead you to either sympathize with the resistance under ghoul attack and being mistreated by the PPD, or you agree with the PPD that they are nefarious terrorists plotting something underground and you be loyal to Cole.  So, you can pick your side after that.  Hero and villain tutorials have none of that.  You pick your side upon creation and then either enter the game or do a tutorial.  At least Villainside has a story to "breaking out" but you're still a villain at the end.  I love Praetoria for that alone and I always do the tutorial because of that.

 

One of the brilliant things about Going Rogue and Praetorian content is that you can switch sides and "spy" on the other.  So, you could start as Loyal - like a "normal" enriche-soaked Praetorian would be - but then switch to Resistance and then report back to Marchand on what they are doing.  Or perhaps, you do find out about Cole's true nature and how people are sheep and his bosses are not the heroes everyone thinks they are.  And it goes the other way too... Start as Resistance, and spy on the Loyalists reporting back to Calvin - and perhaps you might see some of the brilliance behind Cole's drastic means for protecting the people from the Hamidon and keeping them happy, safe, and comfortable in such a dystopian world despite the drama behind the scenes. 

 

And as for Cole blowing the whole place up - well, Primals have systematically dismantled everything he built.  They stopped his invasion, defeated his armies and lieutenants, they invaded Praetoria taking over section by section, they've freed the people and turned them against him - so his last ditch attempt to maintain control and defeat the Primals, he destroys the city and absorbs the remaining souls there for ultimate power to vanquish his enemies.  That's such a classic supervillain move.  And that... that is the perfect kind of villainous "twat" he is.  😄

 

Going Rogue allows you to make probably more choices as a character (even in that sandbox) than Heroes / Villains does.  COH / COV allows you to go back and forth and live in the grey areas of being a vigilante or rogue, which is nice - and it's getting even better with all the newer content.  But GR not only gives you that ability, but the extra layer of still remaining true to the previous faction you were despite the content you are running is just brilliance.  ...for that, GR and Praetoria will always be my favorite.

 

Again, sorry you don't find it as interesting or fun.  But that's okay!  Plenty of game out there to enjoy.  🙂  ...another reason this game is one of the greatest that ever was, is, and will be.  

[Scarlet Shocker]

I think you misunderstood that I'm not a fan of the content overall. 

 

I like it a lot. At least I like a lot of it a lot. (Calvin Scott was a genuinely disappointing finale, tbf) 

 

MY point here was that I think there was a greatly missed opportunity to become something really ruthless, to follow Cole into the moral abyss to the extent you come out the other side so single mindedly focused on his ideology that you make Recluse look like a saint in comparison. 

 

I would love more choices in Blue and Red side - I think it's more important in Red side where your character is more individual and autonomous - but we kind of covered that in other spaces so I didn't really want to deal with that part of it here. 

[Snarky]

9 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

 I admit I'm no Lorologist, but

[Scarlet Shocker]

37 minutes ago, Snarky said:

 

Watch it! I've clocked people like you for less. 

 

Timely retort though! 

[MTeague]

You're not alone. I mean, by the time you do all the mission arcs, you have a pretty solid grasp that Cole is Not a Nice Person, and that some very shady stuff is going down, and anyone who disagrees with him gets disappeared. 

 

But the single biggest question for the Resistance, that is the 95,000 lb behemoth in the room, is "OK, what's your plan for Hamidon / the Devouring Earth?". 

 

I've seen people say "Well, the average person thinks Hamidon is dead."  I don't buy that. There's billboards all over the place reminding people about the monsters lurking behind the Sonic Fences. Provost Marchand outright talks to you about Hamidon during the tutorial if you choose Loyalist, and he's not acting like it's any state secret. He's honestly shocked if you ask "What's a Hamidon?".  Maybe the Resistance assumes the state of half-truce with the Hamidon, with only occasional skirmishes will continue indefinitely, even if Cole were killed/removed. But that's literally gambling the entire species on that assumption. They should be smarter than that. Now maybe you have some true believers who say "It's better to die free than live a slave", and OK, some sympathy for that viewpoint, but it's one thing to gamble your own life, another to gamble all human life on the planet. 

 

Once we have contact with parallel worlds, OK, that's good, but the first step should be evacuating the remaining population, not trying to topple Cole. 

[Frozen Burn]

7 hours ago, MTeague said:

You're not alone. I mean, by the time you do all the mission arcs, you have a pretty solid grasp that Cole is Not a Nice Person, and that some very shady stuff is going down, and anyone who disagrees with him gets disappeared. 

 

But the single biggest question for the Resistance, that is the 95,000 lb behemoth in the room, is "OK, what's your plan for Hamidon / the Devouring Earth?". 

 

I've seen people say "Well, the average person thinks Hamidon is dead."  I don't buy that. There's billboards all over the place reminding people about the monsters lurking behind the Sonic Fences. Provost Marchand outright talks to you about Hamidon during the tutorial if you choose Loyalist, and he's not acting like it's any state secret. He's honestly shocked if you ask "What's a Hamidon?".  Maybe the Resistance assumes the state of half-truce with the Hamidon, with only occasional skirmishes will continue indefinitely, even if Cole were killed/removed. But that's literally gambling the entire species on that assumption. They should be smarter than that. Now maybe you have some true believers who say "It's better to die free than live a slave", and OK, some sympathy for that viewpoint, but it's one thing to gamble your own life, another to gamble all human life on the planet. 

 

Once we have contact with parallel worlds, OK, that's good, but the first step should be evacuating the remaining population, not trying to topple Cole. 

 

Correct - the Hamidon is definitely still alive in Praetoria.  As you state, many references of DE beyond the sonic fences, but it's also stated at the end of the Underground Trial by Desdemona when we find out that Cole didn't defeat Hami and only made a deal, and that the renewed battle with Primal Earth has angered the Hamidon and cannot be "dissuaded" any more. 

 

And you are also correct in that the Resistance has no plan for dealing with the Hamidon directly.  BUT the Resistance does aid in the evacuation of Praetorians coming to Primal Earth.  We do see evidence of evacuation of Praetoria with Marchand (Primal)'s arc "The new Praetorians" and we also get to revisit the ruined Praetorian city in Number Six' arc.  

[Ravenplume]

18 hours ago, Frozen Burn said:

 

Sorry you're not a fan.  I personally like all the content.  But i see how you might think / feel that way. 

 

Yes, creating a character and then right from the gate, you join the resistance or remain loyal.  But you do the same in heroes and villains too - you pick either side upon creation. 

 

 

 

At least when starting red or blue, one can easily pop to Pocket D before doing anything else (if you don't start with the tutorial) and immediately have Null make you Rogue or Vigilante, if you don't really want to be either full Hero or Villain.

[Frozen Burn]

5 hours ago, Ravenplume said:

 

At least when starting red or blue, one can easily pop to Pocket D before doing anything else (if you don't start with the tutorial) and immediately have Null make you Rogue or Vigilante, if you don't really want to be either full Hero or Villain.

 

Yes, but that also defeats the point as well... that's still instantly becoming a certain faction instead of living as one thing for a while and then experiencing some stuff, and then choosing a side. 

 

The only part of the game where you get to live in an area factionless before choosing a side is the Praetorian tutorial.  There, you start as nothing, do a bit of story, and then choose.  COH and COV, you've made the choice as you enter the game, and then only through tips and the morality system (later on at lvl 20) do you "live in an area for a while" and then switch sides or double down and remain loyal to whatever side (or play in a greyer area).  You do that in Praetoria too - you run a couple arcs and at the end, you get a moral choice to stay or change - and if you cahnge, you get another option to still reamain loyal to your previous faction by "spying" or "ratting" on the other side.

[TygerDarkstorm]

9 minutes ago, Frozen Burn said:

 

Yes, but that also defeats the point as well... that's still instantly becoming a certain faction instead of living as one thing for a while and then experiencing some stuff, and then choosing a side. 

 

The only part of the game where you get to live in an area factionless before choosing a side is the Praetorian tutorial.  There, you start as nothing, do a bit of story, and then choose.  COH and COV, you've made the choice as you enter the game, and then only through tips and the morality system (later on at lvl 20) do you "live in an area for a while" and then switch sides or double down and remain loyal to whatever side (or play in a greyer area).  You do that in Praetoria too - you run a couple arcs and at the end, you get a moral choice to stay or change - and if you cahnge, you get another option to still reamain loyal to your previous faction by "spying" or "ratting" on the other side.

If you choose the Galaxy City tutorial, you technically start as factionless until you get to Blue Spectrum.

[Frozen Burn]

8 minutes ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

If you choose the Galaxy City tutorial, you technically start as factionless until you get to Blue Spectrum.

 

You can go to Mercy Island from Galaxy City tutorial?  It's been a long time and don't remember that.

[lemming]

24 minutes ago, Frozen Burn said:

 

You can go to Mercy Island from Galaxy City tutorial?  It's been a long time and don't remember that.

You either lend Blue Spectrum some power, or steal his remaining power.

[Scarlet Shocker]

5 hours ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

If you choose the Galaxy City tutorial, you technically start as factionless until you get to Blue Spectrum.

 

And he should have been called Purple Spectrum to keep it even! 

[Skyhawke]

3 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

 

And he should have been called Purple Spectrum to keep it even! 

 

His costume is blue and red, though. A neat bit of foreshadowing there. 

[TygerDarkstorm]

10 hours ago, Frozen Burn said:

 

You can go to Mercy Island from Galaxy City tutorial?  It's been a long time and don't remember that.

Yep, if you opt to steal Blue Spectrum's power, you become a villain for the rest of the tutorial. If you do, it's kind of funny how confused and disappointed the voice actor gets.

[Scarlet Shocker]

8 hours ago, Skyhawke said:

 

His costume is blue and red, though. A neat bit of foreshadowing there. 

 

Foreshadow is in the Hollows! 😅

[Major_Decoy]

On 9/16/2025 at 5:10 PM, Scarlet Shocker said:

Slightly diverting from my previous "Retcon" thread and other discussions, I wanted to express that but didn't want to divert from that. 

 

One of the biggest problems with GR is that it fails to allow you to make a realistic choice. 

 

As a Praetorian, you've lived your life in the zones, and absorbed the culture, propaganda, and ambience of the world, knowing you're born in a state of total war against the Hamidon and other external forces, but you're not allowed to enjoy and progress that vision. You're not permitted to discover what an utter wanker Cole turns out to be and yet say "I'll stand by him because the alternatives are worse." There's a strange parallel there, which some might consider ironic. 

 

I have yet to grasp why most Praetorian citizens would fail to back Cole. I admit I'm no Lorologist, but you spend your life living and learning and drinking Enriche, which is literally the coolaid - and the real resistance is run by a deluded madman and managed by losers who can't even speak English. 

 

You can make that choice. You skip the tutorial, you run Praetor White's missions and then you just run radio missions. You hit 20, you go to First Ward and you support Cole there.

You never get disillusioned with the leadership, you just do what you're asked to do. 

[Scarlet Shocker]

13 hours ago, Major_Decoy said:

 

You can make that choice. You skip the tutorial, you run Praetor White's missions and then you just run radio missions. You hit 20, you go to First Ward and you support Cole there.

You never get disillusioned with the leadership, you just do what you're asked to do. 

 

There are many ways you can do it if you so choose but those methods are all fudges.

 

My point is that there is no real story arc that allows you to effectively uphold Cole's vision

[Psi-bolt]

On 9/16/2025 at 7:10 PM, Scarlet Shocker said:

Cole keeps the city safe, he's got a capable team backing him up and keeps us all safe. Let's honour him in the right way. 

 

But he didn't keep the city safe, he managed the propaganda that the City was safe.  There's a big difference.   

 

Quote

And then he blows the whole fucking zone up. What kind of twatt does that? 

 

Am I the only one who hates the story?

 

Malignant narcissist authoritarians do that.   If they can't have their way, they aren't willing to suffer that people have freedom that doesn't adhere to their vision.

 

 

When Going Rogue came out, I honestly couldn't see how any reasonable person could believe that Cole's vision was correct.  Certain real life events in the interim has shown me that people are willing to accept the loss of their freedoms for the illusion of economic gain and/or safety.   For those reasons, I have really come to appreciate the Praetorian stories much more than I did when I first played through them.

[Psi-bolt]

On 9/21/2025 at 5:00 AM, Scarlet Shocker said:

My point is that there is no real story arc that allows you to effectively uphold Cole's vision

 

Because ultimately Cole's vision is corrupt totalitarianism.  As a super-powered individual, it is presumed that you have finally accepted that truth since every single path makes this crystal clear.   And then you have some options:

 

1. Try to make Cole's vision of a utopia real even if Cole's motives/real goals are wrong.  (this is somewhat the thought process of a Responsibility character)  You really can't do that "in the system".    There's no path by which you can reform the system because all power flows to Cole.  Even his minions, the Praetors work their own schemes in the shadows.
2. See that Cole is toppled and let Praetorians have a chance at real freedom.   This works neatly into becoming a hero and going to Paragon.  It's most closely associated with the Wardens.
3. Game recognizes game and you decide that Cole's real goals are bad, but hey he does get all the statutes and people call him Emperor.  Not a bad gig if you can get it.  So you try and get it for yourself.  Just like with the Responsibility characters there really no way for you to get that power for yourself while Cole exists, so toppling him is the only way.  Obviously a Power path character would go to Paragon to seek out a means to get their own slice of the pie, either as a hero or a villain (Rogue more like).
4. Finally, you always knew that Cole was full of it.  You always knew that this corrupt society would fall.  The revolution was not televised.   So you bounce.  Either to leave the sheep to their slaughter, or to come back and watch Cole fall.   

I really don't see how any selfless or self-interested person stays with Cole after the story arcs.   The only motivation I could see that make sense is that you personally love Cole and don't seek power for yourself.  That's possible, but hard to fit a narrative around.

[Scarlet Shocker]

32 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

 

Because ultimately Cole's vision is corrupt totalitarianism.  As a super-powered individual, it is presumed that you have finally accepted that truth since every single path makes this crystal clear.   And then you have some options:

 

1. Try to make Cole's vision of a utopia real even if Cole's motives/real goals are wrong.  (this is somewhat the thought process of a Responsibility character)  You really can't do that "in the system".    There's no path by which you can reform the system because all power flows to Cole.  Even his minions, the Praetors work their own schemes in the shadows.
2. See that Cole is toppled and let Praetorians have a chance at real freedom.   This works neatly into becoming a hero and going to Paragon.  It's most closely associated with the Wardens.
3. Game recognizes game and you decide that Cole's real goals are bad, but hey he does get all the statutes and people call him Emperor.  Not a bad gig if you can get it.  So you try and get it for yourself.  Just like with the Responsibility characters there really no way for you to get that power for yourself while Cole exists, so toppling him is the only way.  Obviously a Power path character would go to Paragon to seek out a means to get their own slice of the pie, either as a hero or a villain (Rogue more like).
4. Finally, you always knew that Cole was full of it.  You always knew that this corrupt society would fall.  The revolution was not televised.   So you bounce.  Either to leave the sheep to their slaughter, or to come back and watch Cole fall.   

I really don't see how any selfless or self-interested person stays with Cole after the story arcs.   The only motivation I could see that make sense is that you personally love Cole and don't seek power for yourself.  That's possible, but hard to fit a narrative around.

 

You've summed up well the state of the Praetorian government with a concise precis. 

 

But I fear you may be missing one point: There are plenty of self-interested characters who nail their metaphorical colours to the mast throughout history. There are those who do it for selfish reasons and those who do it for ideological reasons and/or a combination of those but generally they accumulate power to themselves under the umbrella of their Master's ultimate power. 

 

We see it in Praetoria itself where his Praetors align with him because that's their best hope of power, they squabble amongst themselves and their machinations are many and varied but they obey him until it suits them not to. Arachnos is exactly the same, as was Soviet Russia, as is North Korea and the PRC. 

 

I highlighted a part of your text where I think you're making a judgmental error: Some people seek power but they recognize that their power is tempered by those higher in the food chain so they ensure they have that ear and wield the power they get from that for their own cause. Grima Wormtongue. 

 

There currently is no way for a player character to be pro-Cole and then once he's fallen wish to either assume that place for themselves or to carry his mission forward using their own vision. We are booted out of Praetoria into Primal Earth and told "there you go, you're free now, go be a good guy or a bad guy in a different universe but this one is closed to you."

 

 

[Psi-bolt]

10 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

I highlighted a part of your text where I think you're making a judgmental error: Some people seek power but they recognize that their power is tempered by those higher in the food chain so they ensure they have that ear and wield the power they get from that for their own cause. Grima Wormtongue. 

 

I once would have agreed with you, but a person in this particular situation has a different issue that precludes them from staying in Praetoria.  You're told by Marchand to go to Primal Earth.  If you're willing to be a good soldier for the regime, then you do as you're told.  You were told to go to Primal Earth and show the primals that all Praetorians aren't evil goatee versions of themselves.  That's what your job was.  Those higher in the food chain sent you there. You're an agent of the regime.   You support the regime even if you would prefer to stay home.  

 

By the time you reach 50 and watch as the primal Incarnates tear down your home, I don't see how you have a choice at that point.  There will be no regime to support soon.  You can't support Cole's vision any longer.  It's like the USSR.  Even if you truly believed in Lenin's vision for the country and wanted to keep trying to make it work, the USSR collapsed (yes, I know it's not an exact analogy).  Praetoria is in even worse shape because Hamidon is going to conquer the world.  You have to adapt to the circumstance.  

 

This is very realistic.  Sometimes, no matter how much you might wish it to be different, your home is taken away from you.   For the hyper loyal Praetorians that's the story of their life.  First they are sent far from home to a strange world to live with the "enemy."  And then, despite all you believed to be true, the enemy won.  Utopia was lost.  Frankly, it's much more poignant that they probably intended.  Hence the many, many requests over the years to allow Praetorians to stay and defend their home.   I understand the idea, but Praetoria was neither worth defending nor possible to defend.   

[Darmian]

3 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

You're told by Marchand to go to Primal Earth.  If you're willing to be a good soldier for the regime, then you do as you're told.  You were told to go to Primal Earth and show the primals that all Praetorians aren't evil goatee versions of themselves.  That's what your job was.  Those higher in the food chain sent you there. You're an agent of the regime.

If you ARE a loyal agent of the regime you immediately recognise that Marchand is talking BS and should be reported to Chimera, Mayhem or Cole himself.  The other Praetors not so much.  So that argument is debatable.

[Scarlet Shocker]

9 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

This is very realistic.  Sometimes, no matter how much you might wish it to be different, your home is taken away from you.   For the hyper loyal Praetorians that's the story of their life.  First they are sent far from home to a strange world to live with the "enemy."  And then, despite all you believed to be true, the enemy won.  Utopia was lost.  Frankly, it's much more poignant that they probably intended.  Hence the many, many requests over the years to allow Praetorians to stay and defend their home.   I understand the idea, but Praetoria was neither worth defending nor possible to defend.   

 

And you rob the place blind, you say publicly "this place was great once despite its faults and is still worth saving" and you and your team move back in using Primal resources as tools where needed and you oligarch the shit out of it as you fight to become top dog. Your public face is one of benificent philanthropy and good works "We'll bring Praetoria back into the fold" while you work to reinforce it. 

 

Your USSR analogy is apt because it's not difficult to argue that the Russian Federation is significantly stronger and in a better strategic position today than the USSR was in 1989. 

 

As for Hamidon, Keyes just ripped him a new asshole even at the cost of his life and the Primals have always managed to deal with their version. Sure, maybe their version is weaker but together you are stronger... A showdown with Praetorian Hami is inevitable because nobody on any side wants the pair of them tag teaming on Primal. That would be a Hami sandwich too far. 

 

Some of the Praetors will be almost certain to stand by you (beats incarceration on Primal Earth) and you can probably use some of the nastier AVs from alternate dimensions, Reichsman for example - incarcerated and then had the crap kicked out of him despite beliving himself to be invincible - who would be lusting for revenge. Plenty of other examples too. 

[Darmian]

11 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

understand the idea, but Praetoria was neither worth defending nor possible to defend.   

The point, narratively, and I think so many miss this, is not to somehow win but to make a last stand.  At the very least to emulate someone like Keyes (flawed though he was) as he faced Hamidon.

 

Ragnarok isn't somehow a bad or pointless myth because Odin, Thor, Loki and all the rest die.  That MAKES it important. That they did all they could.