Addressing the Tanker Brute Connundrum.

[Sura]

4 hours ago, tellania said:

I'm a fan of higher cap on taunt (5 is too small), or increase the aoe of taunt for tanks (above 400).  I do like the idea of bruising (either make it stack, or give a chance of the other attacks to do bruising).

 

BUT ... the one power I would have like to see, for a tank is an AOE absorbing mechanic.

 

If a foe use an AOE, the tanker absorbs the full brunt of it (aka  100% damage), but reduces damage to the rest of the team (I'll say 20%, but it can be more or less).

Like the tank blocking the damage for the rest of the team.   Multiple tankers can further reduce team damage by a similar amount. (e.g. 2 tanks will reduce damage to the team from the AOE by 40% or the remainder amount).  Simple example: 100 pt aoe hits the team (and 2 tanks).   tanker 1 reduces it by 20% (80 pts).   2nd tanker reduce it by 20% (either 20 pts of original, or 20% of remainder).   So, the team will get hit by either 60 points, or (100-20)*(1-.2)=64 points.

 

Zero benefit to the tank, lots of benefit to the team.   Multiple tanks provide more benefit (all tank team, provides no benefit to each other ...).

Team of 8 (7 tanks, 1 squishy) would give the squishy AOE damage of 4.7 (0.8^7), while tanks still take full damage.

 

 

How would DEF and RES affect the damage coming to the Tanker?  Like normal?  It seems like if DEF and RES still apply this could be very powerful.

 

I really like how this sounds, but I'm not sure how many AoE powers NPC's use.  I especially like how multiple Tankers would actually stack.  

[Cutter]

3 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Not a bad idea, but some of those are toggles, some clicks

Grant Cover is a toggle and Ground Zero is a click, so I wouldn't call that a deal breaker.

[JCMcBoo]

I am intrigued by the suggestion of expanding the bruising mechanic so it gets my vote.

 

I realize my next suggestion is not going to be popular, as it never was in the live forums. That being said I feel like the joy of tanking is in active tanking; using the secondary effects  of my cone and AoE attacks to take most, if not all, of the enemies out of the fight. This is much more fun and feels more powerful than jumping into a group of enemies and throwing the odd taunt.

 

I would love to see all of the tanker secondaries be given the Titan Weapon treatment where the majority of their attacks are cone or AoE  attacks laden with secondary effects like KD, fear, slow and disorient. This would easily set tankers apart from both brutes and scrappers. Tankers wouldn't do more damage, just more widespread damage with secondary effects that allow a tanker to actively, and more reliably, mitigate more of the enemy than brutes or scrappers. While I am not an expert on IOs I don't believe that any exist which turn a single target attack into a cone or AoE.

 

Edited September 7, 2019 by JCMcBoo
clarity and spelling

[ShogunGunshow]

Increasing Tank damage just turns them into shitty brutes and makes the ATs even less different than one another.

 

Increasing aggro cap just leads to the days of tanks running around whole rooms herding everything again, which while fun for the tanker, is kind of not fun for everyone else.

 

Increasing defenses is kinda pointless because Tankers are already practically invulnerable anyway.

 

The problem is Brute. I'm not usually a proponent of nerfs over buffs, but Brutes need some (very mild) nerfs. Give them Kheldian resistance caps, and tone down the scaling they get through Fury a tad. Then a properly played brute is where it should be - between a Tanker and a Scrapper, not basically invalidating both.

[Profit]

To be fair, that is exactly where a brute is at SO levels. It is only after IOs and tricked out builds come into play that we start to see the issues. So no, no nerf to brutes is necessary.

[Haijinx]

Brutes don't really invalidate scrappers though.  Scrappers definitely deal more damage given the same powersets.

 

Plus brutes do have to compete for fury.  

[ShogunGunshow]

14 minutes ago, Profit said:

To be fair, that is exactly where a brute is at SO levels. It is only after IOs and tricked out builds come into play that we start to see the issues. So no, no nerf to brutes is necessary.

I mean, by that logic, you don't need to buff Tankers either.

 

[Infinitum]

12 hours ago, ShogunGunshow said:

The problem is Brute. I'm not usually a proponent of nerfs over buffs, but Brutes need some (very mild) nerfs. Give them Kheldian resistance caps, and tone down the scaling they get through Fury a tad. Then a properly played brute is where it should be - between a Tanker and a Scrapper, not basically invalidating both.

No, they do not.  Nerfing them as a result of what IOs can do for them will only lead you back to Brutes need a buff 6 months from now.

 

How do you compensate the brute players whose IO sets and incarnate slots are now 5-10% useless because the nerf put their resistance cap below where they currently are?

 

How do you balance Super Reflexes which shares a cap across all ATs?

 

The super reflexes scenario is illustrative of why its not a tank or a brute issue, if there is any issue its not around survivability caps.  Its unique features like bruising.

 

Brutes are exactly where they need to be, able to reach the res caps but harder to do it in most cases than the same tank.

Edited September 7, 2019 by Infinitum

[Leogunner]

Apparently Tanker changes are on the table but won't hit the test servers for a bit (maybe a couple months?). Was mentioned in the proc-monster tanker thread. 

 

Got any predictions, guys? 

Edited September 7, 2019 by Leogunner
Correction

[Profit]

@Leogunnergot a link?

[Profit]

Never mind, found the link.

 

 

[Haijinx]

What is the SR issue?  

 

SR Tankers can hit the softcap at very low level.  

 

They can easily cap for incarnate content, or to ignore rage crashes.  

 

Or alteratively, they can hit non incarnate softcap using very little in the way of slots.  

 

Allowing them to build for offense more easily. 

[Cooltastic]

Here's a random idea to improve tankers getting chosen at high levels of play over brutes, which is what the OP is going after.

 

How about when other archtypes attack through the tank by targetting the tank their attacks cause less agro and get slightly buffed in dam/acc.

[Leogunner]

5 hours ago, Profit said:

@Leogunnergot a link?

Sorry, would have linked it earlier but was on a flight. 

 

My hope is it isn't focused on end game min/max content. It'll be a change that will be valued at a larger lvl range

[Infinitum]

17 hours ago, Haijinx said:

What is the SR issue?  

 

SR Tankers can hit the softcap at very low level.  

 

They can easily cap for incarnate content, or to ignore rage crashes.  

 

Or alteratively, they can hit non incarnate softcap using very little in the way of slots.  

 

Allowing them to build for offense more easily. 

That's exactly my point, it's easier for tanks to hit any cap, harder for other ATs including Brutes.

 

With SR you can build a scrapper or Stalker to be just as durable as a tank if you sideline the attack some.

 

That's why this isn't a nerf Brutes solution because you have to sideline attacks to cap their res or def.

 

So even if you nerfed brute resistance caps the SR cap is the same across every AT even past the melee ones and you will still have people soft capping blasters defenders and controllers leading the team.

 

That's one of the reasons why nerfs for brutes aren't the answer.

 

All It will do is create an issue for those that like to main tank with their Brute. And push more people into hybrid or full defense sets.

Edited September 8, 2019 by Infinitum

[Myrmidon]

On 9/7/2019 at 1:27 PM, Profit said:

Never mind, found the link.

 

 

This is the specific post. It looks like that we can start looking at Tanker ideas as early as next week.

Edited September 8, 2019 by Myrmidon

[Profit]

I hate this board setup. If I go into quote, I can see the things, if I just look at them like normal, I get this... Which is to say I get nothing, even on the things I posted.

 

[Profit]

Seems it's strictly a browser issue. So probably changing browsers back to firefox, especially since the main reason I was using this browser was a plugin that I've since found a way around needing.

[Haijinx]

A SR tank is still more durable than a SR Brute or Scrapper, but possibly not as big a ratio as an Invul or WP 

 

For example you can get around 60% S/L resist before scaling resists kick in, maybe a bit more with the ATO.  A Scrapper or Brute is going to be a lot lower than that.  

 

Of course 60% defense to all and 90% S/L resist when at 50% hp is overkill, similar to other tanker sets being overkill.   

 

 

---

Edit - Stalker only gets 2/3 the scaling resists of a Scrapper, so would be further behind.  

Edited September 8, 2019 by Haijinx

[Infinitum]

5 hours ago, Haijinx said:

A SR tank is still more durable than a SR Brute or Scrapper, but possibly not as big a ratio as an Invul or WP 

 

For example you can get around 60% S/L resist before scaling resists kick in, maybe a bit more with the ATO.  A Scrapper or Brute is going to be a lot lower than that.  

 

Of course 60% defense to all and 90% S/L resist when at 50% hp is overkill, similar to other tanker sets being overkill.   

 

 

---

Edit - Stalker only gets 2/3 the scaling resists of a Scrapper, so would be further behind.  

I disagree, it's only easier to get to the caps.  Just like with resists brutes take more set bonuses to get there.  With SR stalkers and Scrappers can get there also.  You can get most ATs to 50% and most melee ATs to 60%  But once you get there durability is pretty much equal.

 

Tanks arent really more durable at that point just easier to build to that point.  Well I guess because of more HP they are, but not much will be hitting you anyway, and if it is hitting you that little bit of hp is only about a 1-2 second buffer.

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

I disagree, it's only easier to get to the caps.  Just like with resists brutes take more set bonuses to get there.  With SR stalkers and Scrappers can get there also.  You can get most ATs to 50% and most melee ATs to 60%  But once you get there durability is pretty much equal.

 

Tanks arent really more durable at that point just easier to build to that point.  Well I guess because of more HP they are, but not much will be hitting you anyway, and if it is hitting you that little bit of hp is only about a 1-2 second buffer.

 

Hmm.  Since SR has no inset enhancable Resists, and Brute and Scrapper (and Stalker) have 3/4 base values thats a whole lot of set bonuses.  Tankers get a lot more out of Tough, and the ATO adds resist  

 

But its mainly overkill, having played Scrapper, Brute and Tanker SRs to 50, they all can pretty much handle most everything thrown at them with IOs once they actually get their AOE toggles.  Sadly for Scrappers that's pretty late.  

 

SR tankers do have one distinction, in that they can easily softcap at a very low level without many IOs, and thus exemplar better than a lot of tanker sets.  

Edited September 9, 2019 by Haijinx
fractions

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

 

Hmm.  Since SR has no inset enhancable Resists, and Brute and Scrapper (and Stalker) have 3/4 base values thats a whole lot of set bonuses.  Tankers get a lot more out of Tough, and the ATO adds resist  

 

But its mainly overkill, having played Scrapper, Brute and Tanker SRs to 50, they all can pretty much handle most everything thrown at them with IOs once they actually get their AOE toggles.  Sadly for Scrappers that's pretty late.  

 

SR tankers do have one distinction, in that they can easily softcap at a very low level without many IOs, and thus exemplar better than a lot of tanker sets.  

That's what I'm saying. 

 

The talk about nerfing brute resistance caps to buff tanks is ludicrous because SR exists for all melee ATs and IO defense set bonuses exist for all ATs. With recharge and IO sets my Grav Time has 50% ranged defense and also more 50% of the time when I activate power boost.  I hover so with holds, slows and defense nothing gets close to hit me, unless I get careless.

 

Imagine a team of that.  

 

That's why nerfing Brutes is not the answer to make tanks feel more needed.

 

No AT is needed and that's a good thing.

[Captain Powerhouse]

[Galaxy Brain]

bigger AoE? 👀

[Leogunner]

😁😁😁😁

🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

If that's what's going on there, I hope you increase those powers' END cost and recharge too.