Addressing the Tanker Brute Connundrum.

[Leogunner]

Just now, Bentley Berkeley said:

On the subject of how many choose to and enjoy the tanking role, that is abit unfair, its well known in the wider MMO world that in any given mmo only a small percentage of players regularly play tanks or support roles...

I'd contrast that opinion by bring up the counterpoint that the same can be said for MMO players generally not choosing to play the "healer" or backline support roles either.  But here we are, people loving their Defenders, Controllers and Corruptors.  But I wouldn't chalk that up to CoH making the role diverse enough to appeal to more players by amending damage to them but rather the way in which you support being extremely evident and impactful.

 

Just now, Bentley Berkeley said:

People imo need to recognize that if they dont enjoy playing a tank, that is not some crime, nor does it mean the tank is made or played wrong. Its just a class few will honestly ever choose and even if it was identical to a brute or better then a scrapper in every way many would likely just based on the name tank ignore the AT. In part because of the perception that such are responsible for keeping aggro off of others. Many dont want to feel responsible for anyone in any way even themselves in MMO, hence the trinity, as many who want to do DPS want to not have to pay any attention to their own survival.

 

Considering you're likely the most experienced roleplayer here, I'd figure you'd understand that people don't just enjoy team roles for their own sake but rather craft characters that fulfill their character's concept and personality which, in itself, is the enjoyment they get while playing.  Because I DO enjoy playing my SD/DM Tanker because he fulfills the desired concept I had when creating him and he plays like I want him to play.  That doesn't mean I have to enjoy all Tankers or that if I only like a few of my concept Tankers that I'm harming myself by playing a Tanker and I should re-roll.

 

Frankly, I'm tired of arguing this perspective.  At the end of the argument, the only thing I'm trying to push is draconian idealist that think the only way to get something done is their way is dumb.  It's like advocating for being as close-minded as your argument demands it to be to sell it to people that don't care for it.  Why should I buy your suggestions when it does nothing for me?  And why should I be told to abandon playing a subset of ATs because of that opinion?

[Profit]

@Jeuraud They are second class tanks. A brute who takes taunt is foolish because the actual taunt power does not help build fury, you build fury by attacking and being attacked, which with the brute AOEs and the instant 400% taunt magnitude those AOEs provide to critters hit will generally put a brute at aggro cap without every clicking the taunt power. Your opinions are those of someone who doesn't main a tank day in and day out. I get it, I've been having this argument for 15 years. But changing tanks to what the general populace thinks they 'should' be and destroying a playstyle some enjoy in the process, while brutes exist which is what the general populace want any way, is foolhardy and stupid.

 

@Haijinx You are correct, but they did help free up a few slots that can be used to spice other powers.

 

@Leogunner I'm saying that objectively. You said 'had their own weekly event' when it should be 'have their own weekly event'. And then event didn't die for tanker players when city shuttered, it moved to champion, was on dcuo briefly. But it has continued these past 7 years, every week. Tankers getting together and crushing stuff.

I would like you to redact your discussions with people online statement. In the quote of Jeurauds I have in the post you quoted, he literally said 'You know what the no-brainer for me is.... that Tanks are fricken boring to play,' so no, I did not put words in his mouth. He literally said he finds tanks boring to play, and part of playing is strategy.

As far as why you should buy my suggestions. The bulk of suggestions in this thread are made with the misunderstanding of just how powerful tankers are. Many of these suggestions would push tankers into the realm omgwtfbbqoverpowered and people don't even realize. My suggestions are meant to incrementally raise tankers until there is a harmony with tankers/brutes/scrappers/stalkers where nobodies toes are being stepped on and each AT is unique in it's own right. Do I have other ideas and suggestions? Oh yeah, I have powerset specific ideas, but you can delve into powersets until the overall AT is worked on. So no, my suggestions may not do anything for your 'concept/immersion' right now, but continuing down the development path would. In essence, your missing the forest for the trees.

 

edited to add @Leogunner the event also came back home and started back up here on May 8th.

 

Edited August 30, 2019 by Profit

[Leogunner]

Just now, Profit said:

I would like you to redact your discussions with people online statement. In the quote of Jeurauds I have in the post you quoted, he literally said 'You know what the no-brainer for me is.... that Tanks are fricken boring to play,' so no, I did not put words in his mouth. He literally said he finds tanks boring to play, and part of playing is strategy.

An argument could be made that saying "making them interesting to just you and you alone" is inferring a point not stated but perceived on your part could be interpreted as putting words in their mouth.  If you want to put those words in someone's mouth, put them in mine because I was the one who said I wanted that change because it'd be fun for ME.  But that'd also mean you're completely missing the point of my arguing tactic.

 

I can make a heavy-handed suggestion sound interesting and more attention grabbing by being brash and self-focused because it makes your conservative "increase taunt mag/hit rate and more bruising" seem less important.  But I don't merely just argue by being brash and self-focused, I can use reason to come to the conclusion that your changes would be imperceptible to players and teams.  

 

Another argument could be made that saying "I hate that the strategy and idea of tanks as they are currently are boring to you" by using "that Tanks are fricken boring to play" out of context is why I'd say you put words in his mouth.  It's not exactly the strategy that's boring, it's that taunt is not the whole of a tank nor is it the whole of its purpose.  A tank is meant to manipulate the target.  Since you're not experienced with tanks in MMOs, they're meant to move targets and manipulate their position so that the foes and bosses they are tanking don't harm their allies. This has been the case for as long as I played tanks/played alongside tanks back in FFXI. The need for this is much less emphasized in CoH because most devastating effects are AoE, not directional.

 

So the strategy of tanking in CoH is less emphasized about moving/manipulating targets but rather retaining attention which is very one dimensional.  

Just now, Profit said:

Many of these suggestions would push tankers into the realm omgwtfbbqoverpowered and people don't even realize. My suggestions are meant to incrementally raise tankers until there is a harmony with tankers/brutes/scrappers/stalkers where nobodies toes are being stepped on and each AT is unique in it's own right.

I'm sorry to inform you, but your suggestions don't do anything!

 

But on a more conservative tone, what other suggestions are you talking about?  I haven't seen any arguments against suggestions that described how they'd overpower the AT (I likely forgot the posts by this point).  I think it's far easier to prove something is overpowered than to prove it's not.

 

Just now, Profit said:

Do I have other ideas and suggestions? Oh yeah, I have powerset specific ideas, but you can delve into powersets until the overall AT is worked on. So no, my suggestions may not do anything for your 'concept/immersion' right now, but continuing down the development path would. In essence, your missing the forest for the trees.

 

Glad you'll condescendingly dismiss someone when given the chance while taking the highroad.

 

No offense here though, but I guess that's what you get when you're being open, sincere and frank with your thought processes rather than beating around a bush trying to convince everyone it's actually a forest.

 

That comment was me being sincere: your idea does nothing and I play in that realm of SOs as much as I do the realm of IOs.  "Posh! Well you're just not a Tanker.  Go play your Stalkers!" Okay 🤣

 

EDIT: Also, don't give a **** that Tankers have a day and you thought it'd be great to rub it in when likely it was just an auto-correct (had > have) from my phone.  Congrats tho.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Leogunner

[Foxfyre]

Quote

Glad you'll condescendingly dismiss someone when given the chance while taking the highroad.

Quote

Since you're not experienced with tanks in MMOs

Think you're not following your own advice there, bud.

Profit is one of the original Justice server Hami tanks.  And still performs that job on Excelsior now.

But....tell you what.....if you feel he's not experienced here's what you should do.

We have a bit of a problem in the Hive with people who can't follow instructions/like to grief by dragging GM's to the rock on people.  Profit regularly steals their aggro and holds the GM's away from the rock to keep them from doing it.   So.....if you feel you can tank better....come to the Hive, round you up some GM's and keep Profit from stealing your aggro.  I'll bet 10 million influence you can't.

[Galaxy Brain]

Back on topic, @Profityou mentioned powerset specific tweaks. Blasters went through a similar update as I mentioned before where they got uniform changes to key powers that act essentially as an AT update.

 

Do you have any thoughts on that?

[Profit]

@Galaxy Brain the blaster tweaks were nice, if not wholly inventive. They basically gave every blaster an aura at the same spot that mostly shares from the same set of effects. I would like to see set specific tweaks for tankers that are not only thematic to the set in question, but unique from the other sets. Basically, I don't want them homogenized at all. I do feel though that set specific tweaks should not happen until the AT as a whole has been tweaked. Because if you set out to just tweak sets one by one, you still have the problems I've laid out in the original post across some of the sets, but fixed it for other sets. So overall AT first, followed by set by set evaluation second.

[Galaxy Brain]

It is sort of "Chicken or Egg?" when it comes to AT global effects + changes to the AT's versions of powers tho ain't it? 😛

 

But yeah, I think the only "Base AT" change that would be best is to expand upon Bruising in some way. I think everyone is in agreement on that, its just the best way to go about it is the question....

 

Everything else would be per-set like my Grant Cover auras.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

3 hours ago, Leogunner said:

I'd contrast that opinion by bring up the counterpoint that the same can be said for MMO players generally not choosing to play the "healer" or backline support roles either.  But here we are, people loving their Defenders, Controllers and Corruptors.  But I wouldn't chalk that up to CoH making the role diverse enough to appeal to more players by amending damage to them but rather the way in which you support being extremely evident and impactful.

 

 

Considering you're likely the most experienced roleplayer here, I'd figure you'd understand that people don't just enjoy team roles for their own sake but rather craft characters that fulfill their character's concept and personality which, in itself, is the enjoyment they get while playing.  Because I DO enjoy playing my SD/DM Tanker because he fulfills the desired concept I had when creating him and he plays like I want him to play.  That doesn't mean I have to enjoy all Tankers or that if I only like a few of my concept Tankers that I'm harming myself by playing a Tanker and I should re-roll.

 

Frankly, I'm tired of arguing this perspective.  At the end of the argument, the only thing I'm trying to push is draconian idealist that think the only way to get something done is their way is dumb.  It's like advocating for being as close-minded as your argument demands it to be to sell it to people that don't care for it.  Why should I buy your suggestions when it does nothing for me?  And why should I be told to abandon playing a subset of ATs because of that opinion?

Uhm bud I mention support in the same first paragraph you quoted that you evidently missed.

 

The thing is the first ATs to ever solo GMs in coh were trollers  and offenders. Its just the nature of their very potent debuffs that surpass in long drawn out fights the very best DPS orientated AT. That is what lead to the creation of ruptors and doms. Both of whom actually are first and foremost killer ATs not support or CC ATs. their aspects taken from troller and defender where the aspects that increase the ability to solo kill the biggest and baddest things in CoH in long drawn out fights no other AT can really hope to go the distance in nor do enough debuffing of the big bads to actually tear into them enough.

 

I am not in the camp that says tanks are bad or obsolete, I am an advocate for them being damn fine as is. If you enjoy playing a tanker and see them as good at what they do already then we are of like mind on the subject.

 

And a Shield/dark melee be it tank or scrapper is a monster and Id certainly hope it feels fun for you because if it did not then I would be thinking "what the frell!".

[Myrmidon]

4 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

On the subject of how many choose to and enjoy the tanking role, that is abit unfair, its well known in the wider MMO world that in any given mmo only a small percentage of players regularly play tanks or support roles. WoW I believe revealed a few years back that in their total  pop on any given day only about 5% of players were on tank or support roles. Most people play these games to be killers basically.  High DPS classes are always played much much more then any other.

 

In CoH we have quite a few AT for that need, And no matter what some say here, a few have pointed out that even on day one in a team with enough buffs and debuffs a designated point man was more a quality of life feature then a need. That with such buffs even the squishiest became tanky as hell.

 

People imo need to recognize that if they dont enjoy playing a tank, that is not some crime, nor does it mean the tank is made or played wrong. Its just a class few will honestly ever choose and even if it was identical to a brute or better then a scrapper in every way many would likely just based on the name tank ignore the AT. In part because of the perception that such are responsible for keeping aggro off of others. Many dont want to feel responsible for anyone in any way even themselves in MMO, hence the trinity, as many who want to do DPS want to not have to pay any attention to their own survival.

 

These are broader MMO truths, and asking the HC team to overcome something no other MMO dev team has really ever managed to tackle in a way that increases the player pops desire to play a tank is really silly imo.

 

This is why some of the more modern MMO like Guild Wars 2 basically threw out the trinity and made every one a self contained trinity. This was also true of DDO with multi classing for its peak era of popularity. Players build to be all in one and not need anything from each other so when they did team up they basically could not be stopped by any content designed for the classic trinity.

Which is exactly what we have with the IO system now if people want to go that route.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

3 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

Which is exactly what we have with the IO system now if people want to go that route.

Exactly, a tank can become pretty lethal for standard solo play with an optimal power set combo and a serious IO set investment, just like every other AT can. People keep talking about the damage cap but that is something evena  brute or scrapper wont ever hit outside of large team content with tons of buffs flying around like an MSR. Most solo will never hit abovea  200% dmg bonus and taht only for brief periods using build up or a capped fury bar etc.

 

The idea that at tne extreme end of the spectrum a brute may be able to rival or even surpass a tank completely is talking about a .001% of the time scenerio. We dont need a major change or even minor tweeks to account for something only an extreme fraction of the population might ever encounter. Its the same reason why we dont need to be changing things based on pvp, because at most based on our typical population numbers its unlikely more then a dozen people are actively playing in pvp at any given moment. Same with extreme challenge seekers. The vast majority of the players play at a relaxed casual level putting concept before optimal power builds and hence wont even be trying to do things like Master of challenges.

[Leogunner]

Just now, Foxfyre said:

Think you're not following your own advice there, bud.

For a second there, I read your profile as a "P" instead of an "F".  The profile colors look similar out of the corner of my eye too.

 

No, the context of that quote of mine was to talk about the complexity of tanking in MMOs which he himself stated he only really plays CoH.  Me saying his experience with tanking in MMOs had nothing to do with Tankers in CoH.  In fact, I'm 100% certain he has more Tanker experience than me.  But tanking in CoH is much different than tanking in FFXI or Blade and Soul or Tera or FFXIV (all of which had nice systems for tanking for their game's purpose with it being either very pivotal or quite complex).

 

But nice try, bud.

 

Just now, Bentley Berkeley said:

Uhm bud I mention support in the same first paragraph you quoted that you evidently missed.

I didn't say you didn't mention it.  I said it counters your point about it being unfair because, while in most MMOs, people don't play support as often, that isn't the case in CoH.  I'd wager the amount of support available either via control or buffs/debuffs out weigh DPS here (a wager you seem to agree with in the rest of your post there).  All I'm saying is, I don't believe as many people box themselves into the "tank" role as one would perceive in the traditional use of the term tank.

 

Just now, Bentley Berkeley said:

And a Shield/dark melee be it tank or scrapper is a monster and Id certainly hope it feels fun for you because if it did not then I would be thinking "what the frell!".

It is! In fact, a lot of the concepts that @Auroxis mentioned about taunting and damaging ego is his super power so the concept fits him.  

[Auroxis]

3 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

It is! In fact, a lot of the concepts that @Auroxis mentioned about taunting and damaging ego is his super power so the concept fits him.  

What are you even trying to say here?

[Leogunner]

Just now, Auroxis said:

What are you even trying to say here?

That I like my character and enjoy playing him because I made something that fit the concept.  The only thing missing is, rather than leave a grey cloud around his enemy's head when he hits them, the foe should gradually desaturate in color until they look grey-scale monochrome.  He can also stand out and more likely to be targeted by doing the opposite to himself.

[Galaxy Brain]

Well said @Bentley Berkeley! Though, I would still like to see changes to Bruising and possibly some +team stuff added into Tankers. It wouldn't drastically change how they play IMO, but add a bit more spice.

[MunkiLord]

3 hours ago, Foxfyre said:

Think you're not following your own advice there, bud.

Profit is one of the original Justice server Hami tanks.  And still performs that job on Excelsior now.

But....tell you what.....if you feel he's not experienced here's what you should do.

We have a bit of a problem in the Hive with people who can't follow instructions/like to grief by dragging GM's to the rock on people.  Profit regularly steals their aggro and holds the GM's away from the rock to keep them from doing it.   So.....if you feel you can tank better....come to the Hive, round you up some GM's and keep Profit from stealing your aggro.  I'll bet 10 million influence you can't.

10 million influence is a joke. You should make the bets worthwhile. 

[Foxfyre]

1 minute ago, MunkiLord said:

10 million influence is a joke. You should make the bets worthwhile. 

You act like I didn't already know that Leo wouldn't actually take the bet.  I could have said 500 million inf and still gotten the same reply.  

If you're so interested in how I risk my influence though, you can feel free to contribute to the Foxfyre Fund.


 

[MunkiLord]

22 minutes ago, Foxfyre said:

You act like I didn't already know that Leo wouldn't actually take the bet.  I could have said 500 million inf and still gotten the same reply.  

If you're so interested in how I risk my influence though, you can feel free to contribute to the Foxfyre Fund.


 

Ten million isn't a risk, it's a few minutes of time. I'm just saying make it interesting. How am I supposed to be entertained when there are no stakes?

[Haijinx]

Suggesting that the overlap works both ways is kind of laughable.  

 

IO Brute taking over tanks role for 95% of content but also doing IO near-scrapperish damage = true

 

IO tank able to do IO near-scrapperish damage = false.  

 

If the overlap worked both ways, this thread would lose 75% of its replies.  

[Jeuraud]

3 hours ago, Foxfyre said:

Think you're not following your own advice there, bud.

Profit is one of the original Justice server Hami tanks.  And still performs that job on Excelsior now.

Leo is talking about this

21 hours ago, Profit said:

Just FYI, the only mmo I've ever played  (re more than a day or two after COH shut down) was COH.

 

 

5 hours ago, Profit said:

@Jeuraud They are second class tanks.

So at least now we know where you are coming from... your an Elitist.

 

 

 

 

 

[Auroxis]

7 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Suggesting that the overlap works both ways is kind of laughable.  

 

IO Brute taking over tanks role for 95% of content but also doing IO near-scrapperish damage = true

 

IO tank able to do IO near-scrapperish damage = false.  

 

If the overlap worked both ways, this thread would lose 75% of its replies.  

Bio/TW Tanker can certainly deal Scrapper levels of damage if you compare it to non-TW/Bio Scrappers. While it's significantly less DPS than its TW/Bio Scrapper counterpart (about 50% of an equivalent scrapper and 75% of an equivalent brute), it's far sturdier while contributing more utility to a team via the ability to tank more reliably and having better -res debuffs.

 

I'm not saying Bio/TW should be the benchmark for balancing tankers, but that while tankers are behind there are currently ways to work around the issue through powerset selection and character builds. Also that the contribution of -res is a bit underrated, though understandably so thanks to bruising not being stack-able at all.

[Haijinx]

Think TW is an outlier.  How does that tank compare to a brute with the same sets?

[Auroxis]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Think TW is an outlier.  How does that tank compare to a brute with the same sets?

11 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

Bio/TW Tanker can certainly deal Scrapper levels of damage if you compare it to non-TW/Bio Scrappers. While it's significantly less DPS than its TW/Bio Scrapper counterpart (about 50% of an equivalent scrapper and 75% of an equivalent brute), it's far sturdier while contributing more utility to a team via the ability to tank more reliably and having better -res debuffs.

 

Edited August 30, 2019 by Auroxis

[Haijinx]

So basically the tanker can do 75% of the brutes damage, but the brute can still tank 95% of content.  

 

Think that's kind of the point about not overlapping.  

 

 

[Profit]

33 minutes ago, Jeuraud said:

So at least now we know where you are coming from... your an Elitist.

It's not about being an elitist. Tanking is about taking hits and battlefield control. Tanks get 3 forms of battlefield control versus the brutes 2 forms. Ergo, tankers are better than brutes at the job.

[Auroxis]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

So basically the tanker can do 75% of the brutes damage, but the brute can still tank 95% of content.  

 

Think that's kind of the point about not overlapping.  

 

 

Sure, but the tanker is also contributing more -res to a team which can make up for it in AV fights.