Instigator: Take Two. Assault/Defense Tank

[Steampunkette]

After going over the AT Compilation thread and trying to understand what ATs are "Needed" to fulfill different roles (or more accurately provide different ways to fulfill the roles that City of Heroes uses) I came to the inevitable conclusion that City of Heroes needs another tank type. You can read about it, here: 

Wow... that's a little annoying. Can't just have links it creates a whole separate window. Cool in concept, annoying in practice...

 

So to get to the nitty gritty of things: 

 

This iteration of Instigator is built around the idea of tanking, but would need to do it in a new and interesting way to set it apart from both Tankers (Who can take anything the world throws at them) and Brutes (Who can give as good as they get). It will still need direct aggro generation, survivability, and damage-dealing capabilities (Every AT must be able to Solo)

 

 

For an Inherent I'm thinking of a cross between Gauntlet and Provoke. Melee single-target Provoke, AoE Provoke (melee or ranged) and ranged single-target Gauntlet. This is an archetype that doesn't get Taunt as a core power choice, so this would be a nice, simple way to create aggro but also -force- the Instigator to constantly be firing off AoE and ranged attacks to ensure they gathered and maintained aggro, even spending some ranged attacks to hit melee targets for the AoE Taunt provided. We'll call it 'Instigation'

 

Range, however, by it's very nature, provides survivability. Arguably not as much as many would -like-... but it does provide it. So how about instead of giving them 'normal' defense sets with reduced defensive values, how about we give them -Sentinel- defensive sets? Using this method, we don't provide a significant benefit to staying in melee, like a Brute or Tank would get from various 'More Enemies More Benefit' powers like Invincibility, and also reduce their Passive Aggro Generation, forcing the Instigator to continue using their primary powerset to generate aggro. But we also create a situation where the Instigator-Tank must balance melee and ranged fighting. Gathering enemies in one place for the team to destroy them, but not holding them together for -long- because of the lower overall defensive power that the Sentinel Sets provide, since the Instigator will have to move to survive.

 

At least until they get to Incarnate Levels and nothing matters anymore except how much aggro they generate and their base HP since they're gonna get hit a LOT.

 

As for stats, let's put them with EATs for 85% maximum resistance so they cannot, even when buffed to hell and back, equate to the full resistance of Tanks and Brutes. Let's set their HP at 1440 (lower than Brute, higher than Scrapper), and give them the same Damage Buff limits as everyone who isn't a Brute or a DPS AT. Since their Aggro-generation is going to be based entirely on their damage let's give them a .95 damage value on melee -and- ranged. They do more damage than a Tanker or Brute (Baseline Brute, anyway), but they pay for it with some survivability costs.

 

Both Brutes and Tankers get a "Second Inherent", though. Brutes with their Fury, Tankers with their Bruising. The Instigator is currently going to be pretty bad at taking the Alpha of a spawn... So how about we bake in an alpha-eater power inherent? Give them a ticking Absorb buff with a duration of 30 seconds, each 5 seconds they get another hit of it, with each hit stacking (Ignores recharge rate changes). If they're not hit for 25 seconds, they have 5 stacks of the Absorb Buff which gives them an alpha-soaking buffer of temporary hit points. We can call it "Resolve". Each Absorb buff clocks in at 3% maximum health for a maximum Resolve absorb of 15%. At max level that's another 210 HP at the start of a fight. Not -too- shabby with the resistance and defense a level 50 Instigator would have on SOs.

 

For EPPs we could combine Control and Support with maybe a Sustain? Like how Tankers get Chillblain in their Cold Mastery or Sentinels get Rehabilitation Circuit in their Electrical Mastery.

 

What do you think?

 

 

Edited August 17, 2019 by Steampunkette

[Six-Six]

I think that's a very well thought through analysis. I also feel that it is either the original intent for the Sentinel AT, or its natural evolution. 

So as a big fan of Sentinels, I would again humbly repeat my request: please instigate this. 😃 

[Galaxy Brain]

Brutes fury is their primary inherent, not their secondary

[Steampunkette]

Just now, Galaxy Brain said:

Brutes fury is their primary inherent, not their secondary

Fair point. But what do you think of the idea itself?

[Galaxy Brain]

I'm not sure. Right now we have a whole debacle about Tank vs Brute when it comes to effectiveness, which leads me more towards bolstering what tankers do already to help then stand out.

 

I think an AT that also does this but with OK damage would just further push tankers down.

[Steampunkette]

It is a potential issue.

 

Though that's a big part of why I suggested lower maximum resistance and lower maximum HP with no damage-enhancing inherent.

 

A tanker's Bruising improves their damage and their whole team's damage. This character doesn't offer that sort of benefit to the team. 

 

Though... huh. Interesting thought: What if a Tanker's Bruising was Unresistable? That alone would make Tankers highly valued in AV Fights. Gonna add that to the thread...

[Steampunkette]

After Vanden commented in a different thread about Sentinel level Defenses taking Alphas and holding aggro, I remembered that I'm not looking at building a pre-IO BRUTE, here. It's been a -long- time since I played a Scrapper to any level 'cause I just do Stalkers and Brutes, instead.

 

The proposed Instigator would need a higher defensive baseline than Sentinels have. Closer to or slightly above Scrappers. But I stand by the idea of giving them a lower maximum Resistance Value. Either 75% or 85% and I stand by their health values.

 

I still think the Sentinel Defensive Sets themselves would be entirely appropriate for their power selections. But the numbers would need to be tweaked up for the Instigator to take the Alpha and have decent survival while moving in and out of melee.

Edited August 17, 2019 by Steampunkette

[Some Random User]

What's the real downside? Archetypes need a different experience, the same Powerset ought to feel different enough. (For an example make a Staff Stalker and a Staff Scrapper.) There should be enough difference to also create new Powersets within that niche (like Ninjitsu). I'm worried this is just "late game min-maxers can't use the Archetype" instead of something that would make for a meaningfully different experience.

[Steampunkette]

13 hours ago, Some Random User said:

What's the real downside? Archetypes need a different experience, the same Powerset ought to feel different enough. (For an example make a Staff Stalker and a Staff Scrapper.) There should be enough difference to also create new Powersets within that niche (like Ninjitsu). I'm worried this is just "late game min-maxers can't use the Archetype" instead of something that would make for a meaningfully different experience.

Currently no one gets Assault as a Primary Powerset. One AT gets it as a Secondary to pair with Controls. That, alone, would make them feel a lot different. Instead of spamming attacks while your control timers are running down and then hitting more control effects and staring a hole in the Domination power on your hotbar for the Endurance and Control increase, you'd be playing a character who is more focused on where the enemies are and what they're doing. Not just standing in the center of a field of enemies coming to kill you, moving around and keeping track of where they're going so you can maintain aggro through ranged damage.

 

Most of the game is the leveling experience. It's teaming and working together to beat up baddies (Unless your only goal is Efficiency in which case you grab a team of 8 and steamroll without a care as to who is playing what Archetype or Powerset until Knockback comes into play). 

 

Once you get to incarnate levels with this design as I've laid it out you'd -still- do good damage, your role in the team would just have to shift to Off-Tank or something similar. Min-maxers would probably still have a field day with it to tweak it's damage output to maximum and ensure it's defensive stats were completely capped to make it as durable as possible. It just wouldn't be able to main-tank the Avatar of Hamidon as well as a Tanker or Brute would thanks to a lower maximum HP and such.

 

I got the idea for this Archetype literally -years- ago when I first played a Kinetic Melee Brute. I skipped Taunt and used Repulsing Torrent and Focused Burst to grab aggro at a distance. I'm playing a new one, these days, and I love her to -pieces-! But I'm still playing the same "Stand in one spot" game as soon as the aggro is secured. I'd rather move around. I'd rather use Savage Assault or Earth Assault. I'd rather mix and match powersets and create something cool and fun than only ever get this playstyle half-way through Kinetic Melee.

[Some Random User]

On 8/17/2019 at 7:34 AM, Steampunkette said:

I'd rather mix and match powersets and create something cool and fun than only ever get this playstyle half-way through Kinetic Melee.

Maybe we should start with what we like about the Assault, Manipulation, and Armor Powersets, and discuss what a new category with good stuff from all of them could be paired with. Dominators and Blasters lack Armor, but a Scrapper or Sentinel lacks things those other Archetypes have. What a new combo-of-stuff Powerset would be like is an interesting conversation and speaks to the rest of a new Archetype.

[Steampunkette]

5 hours ago, Some Random User said:

Maybe we should start with what we like about the Assault, Manipulation, and Armor Powersets, and discuss what a new category with good stuff from all of them could be paired with. Dominators and Blasters lack Armor, but a Scrapper or Sentinel lacks things those other Archetypes have. What a new combo-of-stuff Powerset would be like is an interesting conversation and speaks to the rest of a new Archetype.

I'm not certain I understand you, here. Do you mean we should design a new powerset type which combines things we like from different powersets or just talk about why we like the powersets that exist?

[Some Random User]

16 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

I'm not certain I understand you, here. Do you mean we should design a new powerset type which combines things we like from different powersets or just talk about why we like the powersets that exist?

I'm saying we can start with discussing what we like, then use that to guide us in designing a new type of Powerset.

 

My view on Manipulation is that they're a grab-bag with some of Melee, some of Control, and a couple Blast, but no Armor and no Support.

My view on Assault is that they're a grab-bag with some of Melee, and some of everything else, but no Armor again.

[LateNights]

I'd like to see something similar to this as a "Black Knight" Epic Archetype - I'm kind of against adding too many more base archetypes personally - but I do like the idea of this one more than Sentinels (which probably should have been more like this to begin with imo - as someone mentioned earlier, no AT gets Assault as a Primary, which is a shame considering it probably synergizes better than the Ranged that Sentinels currently get...)

Edited August 20, 2019 by LateNights

[Steampunkette]

7 hours ago, Some Random User said:

I'm saying we can start with discussing what we like, then use that to guide us in designing a new type of Powerset.

 

My view on Manipulation is that they're a grab-bag with some of Melee, some of Control, and a couple Blast, but no Armor and no Support.

My view on Assault is that they're a grab-bag with some of Melee, and some of everything else, but no Armor again.

Oh! I see. Well! Assault Sets are a combination of melee, ranged, and AoE attacks. Usually 2, 3, and 2 or 3, 2, and 2. Each powerset also gets a "Build Up" power and a power that is meant to express the powerseet type's general theme. Like Dark Assault getting Lifedrain, Psychic getting a control, or Cold enjoying a PBAOE slow aura.

 

Manipulation sets are built around a few melee attacks and both area soft control and single target hard control to keep  the Blaster safe.

[Zepp]

I ran the numbers, and assault generally has 1-2 melee (most have 2), 2-3 ranged [excluding snipes] (most have 3), 1 melee AoE, 1 ranged AoE, 1 boost, and 1 special (often a snipe, sometimes a toggle).

 

Manipulation has an immobilize, a melee, a boost, a sustain, and then the rest is generally a 1 or 2 soft or hard control powers, a utility power, and another melee single or multi-target attack or two. I can run the exact numbers on that if you like, but that is basically it.

 

(Ran the numbers) : Manipulation generally has Five key points, T1 Immobilize, T2 ST Melee, T4 Boost, T6 Sustain, & T7 Utility. Now, these are not universal, but most Manipulation sets have these benchmarks (with minor variation in placement). They average about three melee attacks per set with about half of those containing both damage and control elements. About one in three sets also has a ranged damage attack. They have about four CC attacks per set (one of those is generally a T1 Immobilize) and about half of those attacks has a damage element. Sets have one to three utility powers that are either self buffs, enemy debuffs, or a click heal. Endurance and recharge are the most common self buff utility elements. I hope that helps with the definition of what a manipulation set is.

 

That being said, I do not see why we are talking about Manipulation in a thread discussing an assault/armor AT proposal...

Edited August 20, 2019 by Zepp

[biostem]

What if you set their defensive values a bit lower, like around Sentinel levels, but they get a 2-fold inherent:

 

1. Their attacks generate aggro on par with a tanker's, but only against single targets, (with AoEs doing the same for each target hit).

 

2. For each enemy who is aggro'd against them, (whether in melee or at range), they get a def, dmg res, and dmg buff.

 

This would encourage them to want to keep as many enemies as possible aggro'd against them, while also assisting them in doing so...

Edited August 20, 2019 by biostem

[Some Random User]

7 hours ago, Zepp said:

That being said, I do not see why we are talking about Manipulation in a thread discussing an assault/armor AT proposal...

Both of them are grab-bag sets and were specifically designed to offset another Archetype's needs. Both of them have a base of melee attacks. If one is acceptable we can make them both fit.

[Some Random User]

10 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

Oh! I see. Well!

So what do you like about Assault/Manipulation? What is better than just a Melee Powerset? Just the flexibility of the grab-bag? There is a bunch of ways to go with such a diverse set. Maybe a type of effects are dropped for a different type of Powerset? Something like adding Support in place of Manipulation's Control effects?

[Steampunkette]

30 minutes ago, Some Random User said:

So what do you like about Assault/Manipulation? What is better than just a Melee Powerset? Just the flexibility of the grab-bag? There is a bunch of ways to go with such a diverse set. Maybe a type of effects are dropped for a different type of Powerset? Something like adding Support in place of Manipulation's Control effects?

Firstly, I like Assault, not Manipulation, for this design. And there's some significant differences between the two and the resulting survivability of them. They're not interchangeable, even if both of them use powers lifted from other sets. And Manipulation would -never- work as a Primary. Especially not after the Homecoming Changes.

 

Secondly, I like Assault because it combines Melee and Ranged attacks. That's it. There's a lot of superheroes that use their powers both up close and personal and also at a distance, but it's very hard to do that in City of Heroes unless you're a Dominator or Level 50. Characters like Captain Marvel or Deadpool who mix it up.

 

It's not that I'm looking for "A Diverse Set". It's that I'm specifically looking for Assault powersets. A combination of Melee and Ranged attacks.

 

2 hours ago, biostem said:

What if you set their defensive values a bit lower, like around Sentinel levels, but they get a 2-fold inherent:

 

1. Their attacks generate aggro on par with a tanker's, but only against single targets, (with AoEs doing the same for each target hit).

 

2. For each enemy who is aggro'd against them, (whether in melee or at range), they get a def, dmg res, and dmg buff.

 

This would encourage them to want to keep as many enemies as possible aggro'd against them, while also assisting them in doing so...

I'm afraid it can't be done. Aggro isn't handled on the player's 'Sheet' essentially. Aggro exists as a function of an NPC. The game would have no way to check how many characters are aggroed on the Instigator at any given time. There's no "Real Number" for "Current number of people who want to hit me".

 

You could do it in a manner similar to Defiance kinda? So that every attack you use grants X amount of Defense, Resistance, or Regeneration for a few seconds at a time, but I'm not sure it's a viable option.

[Sniktch]

They aren't.

 

Every player character in the game, every player-spawned pet, all have the exact same aggro cap - 17 entities.

 

Now, if you're asking how the game handles that, it checks every active critter in an instance every pulse, compares their aggro sheet to viable targets, and picks the highest number to target - grossly simplifying, cause code is ugly, of course.  If a player is on 18 sheets, then the critter with the lowest hate for them stops seeing them as viable until they're not on 18 sheets.  A lot of people WANT the aggro caps changed on an AT-by-AT basis, but that's asking the devs to tapdance into a heavily mined spaghetti factory to play with a Jenga tower at best, thanks to how messy the CoX code is.  As an example, the option to numerically show recharge remaining on powers is a Homecoming addition.  That took a long time, and blew up the beta server at least twice.  Just to add a countdown on your power icons if you flip an option.

 

Now, if you're asking how the game handles different aggro GENERATION, that's a threat multiplier inherent to each AT - tanks and brutes have 400% bonus aggro, Scrappers have 300%, etc. and all those are actually coded into the powers, activated by the AT hooks.  Kind of like Fiery Embrace - if you look at the "Detailed Info" on a power when on a character who could have chosen Fiery Aura as an armor set, you'll see "+x Fire Damage, ignores enhancements and resistances, only when Fiery Embrace is active" on every damaging power.  The AT aggro modifier is done the same way; you can actually see it on Pool attacks.  They'll list the variable "+x% taunt for x seconds" on them, and say "only if character is Tank" for example.

[Some Random User]

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

Aggro isn't handled on the player's 'Sheet' essentially. Aggro exists as a function of an NPC. The game would have no way to check how many characters are aggroed on the Instigator at any given time. There's no "Real Number" for "Current number of people who want to hit me".

There is totally a cap. How does the game keep track of there being a maximum number of bad guys aggroed?

[Sniktch]

SRU: read my post.  It's not tracked on the player at all, it's tracked on each individual critter.  And there's no way currently to hook from the critter aggro sheet to a buff on the player without risking a nuclear fireball of code meltdown.

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, Sniktch said:

SRU: read my post.  It's not tracked on the player at all, it's tracked on each individual critter.  And there's no way currently to hook from the critter aggro sheet to a buff on the player without risking a nuclear fireball of code meltdown.

Can the game track how many enemies have tried to attack you, then, (regardless of whether the attack landed or not)?  Perhaps the mechanic could be based off of that;  "Gain X% defense, Y% damage resist, and Z% bonus damage for your own attacks, for each enemy that attacked or attempted to attack you in the last 10 seconds"...

[Sniktch]

Sort of?  Brute Fury works off of that - doesn't care about aggro, mind, just attacks.  So an AoE targeted on your neighbor ticks Fury just as much as a knuckle sandwich with your name on it.  But yes, you COULD jackleg a 'defensive Fury' power in, depending on how much code time and dev sanity you're willing to feed Cthulu.

 

Note, it's not 'tracking' anything, it's just a buff in response to any attack roll made at you.  And it won't help you soak an alpha at all, which is kind of what is being looked for, so...clarifying, the answer is "probably, but that's not exactly helpful for the problem at-hand."

Edited August 21, 2019 by Sniktch
Clarifying

[Steampunkette]

Everything Sniktch said with a little caveat:

 

You can be on more aggro sheets than the aggro cap allows.

 

You can run through 3 full spawns of enemies with a taunt aura on, and even though only 17 can attack you, the rest are aware and angry. As soon as one who is actively fighting you drops, others will run over to replace him.

 

So any attempt to Aggro-Check could be cheesed by exceeding the aggro cap through multiple groups being 'aggroed' but unable to attack because you're at the limit, -if- such a pulsing check could be performed.

 

Though, y'know, a Fury like mechanic for more Max HP could be pretty great...