Opportunity - Are First 2 Attacks Required?

[Vulpoid]

I have noticed some posted builds that do not take either the first or the  second blast in the set.
 

Does that mean that you miss out on the ability to land Offensive for the first, or Defensive for the second opportunity bonuses when your bar is fully charged?

For instance, with Water Blast, if one does not take Aqua Bolt AND Hydro Blast, do you lose the ability to land Offensive or Defensive Opportunities?

[nihilii]

Correct. To some people it's an acceptable tradeoff.

 

Personally, I even see it as a boon. I like reliable behavior above situational.

 

So, I'd rather have the same Opportunity all the time, rather than fiddle around with which power to use (which may or may not be recharged) when my Opportunity bar is full.

[KaizenSoze]

24 minutes ago, Vulpoid said:

For instance, with Water Blast, if one does not take Aqua Bolt AND Hydro Blast, do you lose the ability to land Offensive or Defensive Opportunities?

Yes. The first blast triggers Offensive, the second Defensive.

 

<IHMO>

There is no reason to take the second blast, unless there is a power set where the second blast is very effective.

 

Hydro Blast is not one of those blasts.

 

Defensive is mostly ignored and for good reason.

</IMHO>

Edited July 29, 2019 by KaizenSoze

[oldskool]

 

17 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Yes. The first blast triggers Offensive, the second Defensive.

 

<IHMO>

There is no reason to take the second blast, unless there is a power set where the second blast is very effective.

 

Hydro Blast is not one of those blasts.

 

Defensive is mostly ignored and for good reason.

</IMHO>

I want to second the opinion part here, but include a caveat to it. 

Most of the builds flying around are not leveling builds.  Sure, you can level with these plans, but they likely won't be as effective since they are also paired with specific invention bonuses chosen by the player.  Not having those bonuses can create gaps in your attacks or perhaps you don't have all of the endurance recovery yet.  Having Defensive Opportunity available while you are leveling through organic play does offer some benefits.  Offensive Opportunity grants you some bonus damage that cannot be enhanced as you level.  The unique quirks of each Opportunity, other than the -20% resistance they both have, diminish with a maxed out build. 

So while Aqua Bolt might be better damage per activation in the end, having Hydro Blast may actually be a benefit to you right now.  I'd suggest playing what is the most comfortable for you as you build towards 50, and then maybe consider using one of the 5 free respecs you get to later refine power selection if you feel it is necessary.   

[Hopeling]

Both Opportunities apply the -20% resistance debuff to the target. Offensive also adds a small energy damage bonus to your attacks (but for AoE attacks, it only applies to one target), and Defensive gives a small heal and endurance restore on every attack.

 

The bonuses are fairly small, and you can generally only use one at a time anyway; if you mostly use Defensive Opportunity (or vice versa), saving a power choice and 4-5 slots by not taking the other power at all may be more useful than having slightly more flexibility. Few sets need both to make a good attack chain.

[Vulpoid]

Thank you everyone for the explanations!

[KaizenSoze]

1 hour ago, oldskool said:

 

Most of the builds flying around are not leveling builds.  Sure, you can level with these plans, but they likely won't be as effective since they are also paired with specific invention bonuses chosen by the player.  Not having those bonuses can create gaps in your attacks or perhaps you don't have all of the endurance recovery yet.  Having Defensive Opportunity available while you are leveling through organic play does offer some benefits.  Offensive Opportunity grants you some bonus damage that cannot be enhanced as you level.  The unique quirks of each Opportunity, other than the -20% resistance they both have, diminish with a maxed out build. 

So while Aqua Bolt might be better damage per activation in the end, having Hydro Blast may actually be a benefit to you right now.  I'd suggest playing what is the most comfortable for you as you build towards 50, and then maybe consider using one of the 5 free respecs you get to later refine power selection if you feel it is necessary.   

I agree with oldskool. I tend to get around not taking the 2nd blast with ranged P2W and prestige powers.

 

They are good enough attacks till you can get a complete attack chain. Or you can just respec. Either works.

[Six-Six]

I've learned to like Opportunity specially with hardier bosses. Knowing your preference to "basic" IOs, I'd take Opportunity if I were you.

Don't know enough about other T1s, but my DP T1 is weak. I instead use it for the debuff to set up a much more damaging attack chain afterwards. Both types of Opportunity contribute very nicely to that set up when it fires.

My T2 has been built up and can keep up with my Executioner Shot and Suppressive Fire, minus the debuff and hold/stun. It does however have knockback which I maximise in my strategy. Plus both T1 and T2 have a fast recharge off the bat, so I don't get any dead air. So with 1 weak and 4 fairly high damage single attacks with each attack delivering additional debuff to the target, the result is a faster charging Opp bar. One of the Sentinel ATO is Opportunity Strikes + Chance for Opportunity. That helps the bar fill up even faster. (Note --I think Oldskool posted it somewhere else-- that the +Chance for Opp proc works better with my T9) so can I go in mob of 10-15, unleash my nuke and just go around picking off the left overs with a shot or two. I've done a mission with 3 - 4 of those mobs (same level) in close proximity, LTs and Bosses in the mix. Went in, did my thing, left alone standing barely winded or scratched.

Initially, my take on Opportunity was if it's there, fine, if not I don't miss it. But I've learned to notice how much it really adds to my gameplay. Sometimes I even rely on the Def Opp for that small return of end. the Health regen, I don't need at all. But you can never have too much end. 

Edit: just had an afterthought. Maybe the reason people consider giving up T1 and T2 (and thereby giving up the opportunity for... well Opportunity) is because of the Epic pools. I didn't take one for this build, but I've been studying them for another. They have 5 more attacks, 2-3 of them are usually worthwile. So maybe the trade-off between that and T1, T2, Opp is worth it to them? Too much of noob to know.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Six Six

[Sovera]

I posted on how Defensive opportunity makes my latest build and nothing has changed in that.  In fact, I will be updating the post with that I have found by playing it, but summarizing it in that particular build Defensive Opportunity is letting me farm +0x8 despite having only 30%-ish defenses while I slowly slot up and work out Incarnates. This is not a one size fits all though, but with Sonic's quick cycling AoEs I'm never in lack of endurance and my HP is always full.

 

That said the profit of doing it with ST attacks is much smaller and with more normalized slower recharging AoEs the benefit will not be as great.

[Six-Six]

Sovera. Wow, great write up. Just read the linked post. Thanks. Right now, Sonic turns me off PRIMARILY because of the sound + power effects. Yes, I'm shallow like that. But your write up may have just convinced me to try one. 😃

[oldskool]

2 hours ago, Six Six said:

Don't know enough about other T1s, but my DP T1 is weak. I instead use it for the debuff to set up a much more damaging attack chain afterwards. Both types of Opportunity contribute very nicely to that set up when it fires.

(Note --I think Oldskool posted it somewhere else-- that the +Chance for Opp proc works better with my T9)

 

Edit: just had an afterthought. Maybe the reason people consider giving up T1 and T2 (and thereby giving up the opportunity for... well Opportunity) is because of the Epic pools. I didn't take one for this build, but I've been studying them for another. They have 5 more attacks, 2-3 of them are usually worthwile. So maybe the trade-off between that and T1, T2, Opp is worth it to them? Too much of noob to know.

For statement 1, Pistols is stronger than you give it credit.  No, it won't put out big orange numbers, but it is deceptively strong.  It is the 3rd best attack (behind only Executioner's Shot and Suppressive Fire) when considering standard ammo only.  That's unique to Sentinels.  For the other Dual Pistol using classes the power is actually the second best attack regardless of ammo type (and I mean actual Dual Pistols the set not having pistol attacks like Thug Masterminds get - their version of Pistols is legitimately weak).  If you ever used the fire ammo power, then Pistols becomes the second best attack in the set, period.  It takes an IO build, specifically 2 purple damage procs, to make Suppressive Fire the #2 power regardless of ammo.  If you decide to not enhance Executioner's Shot for damage, then Suppressive Fire can actually become the best attack, but I don't advocate for that. 

For statement 2, I just want to clarify that I don't believe that.  The placement of Opportunity Strikes depends on what primary we're talking about.  Some sets can make use of it in their single target chains better than others.  Some sets may want to consider it in a T9 or other AoE power, but I really don't think that is the best approach there either.  To each their own though.
(Edit 1: For double clarity... I'm not a huge fan of proc chances less than 20% in single target chains.  That means 1 out of every 5 uses the proc can go off.  That's a minimum, but ideally I want better odds than that.  Especially for a random chance that is prone to trigger when my Opportunity bar is at 100% already for the next 15 seconds... yuk!  Placement of various sets can turn conventional wisdom on it's head depending on what you're trying to do.  I know a rule of thumb is putting Apocalypse in the highest DPA power.  Generally this is good, but you can abuse some proc chance by not blindly doing this in all primaries.  Psionic Blast is an example where putting Apocalypse + Unbreakable Constraint in a power like Dominate [Psi Mastery] yields results while putting 5pcs of Opportunity Strikes into Scramble Thoughts gets you roughly 45% chance for opportunity bursts.  That means Psionic Blast can have really high up time on Opportunity's -20% resistance to help it's post-50 issues against psi resistant enemies.  At least seems it work on paper, I started one up and I want to mess with it more.  I also want to mess with using Opportunity Strikes in Whirlpool on my Water Blast since the base recharge is so long.  So yeah, it depends is the best answer I can give.

Edit 2: for Dual Pistols I prefer Armageddon as a purple set for Hail of Bullets since it has an additional damage proc available [chance for fire] that is virtually guaranteed to go off every time.  By virtual I mean over 90% and you can not have 100% chance to trigger anything under the current PPM rules. 😞 I also highly recommend Fury of the Gladiator chance for -resistance, but that is optional.)

For statement 3, that depends [edit: again!].  Not all T1 and T2 powers are created equally.  Some sets really do have lack luster powers in that spot, but that is not true of all sets.  Assault Rifle is an example where both the T1 and T2 are integral components to an optimized attack chain.  That's completely ignoring that Opportunity is even a thing.  In fact, the T2 (Disorienting Shot) in Assault Rifle is the highest damage-per-activation attack in the set!  So the decision on what attack to drop in a given primary for an Epic/Patron power is going to vary from set to set.

Edited July 29, 2019 by oldskool

[Six-Six]

Thanks for the awesome clarification Oldskool. Sorry if I misconstrued your original post and thereby make it misleading. But between you and Sunsette's guidance in various threads, I've come up with a build that's both fun to play and quite effective/efficient. I'm not good with all the math and science that goes into the slotting/procs and whatnot, so I usually take other people's word for it.

You suggest purple IOs. How dare you think I can afford them. 😃

Thanks again.

[oldskool]

54 minutes ago, Six Six said:

You suggest purple IOs. How dare you think I can afford them. 😃

Thanks again.

No problem. 
I have around 25 characters which is a lot of mouths to feed.  In order to make sure they all have food at the table I also play the market manipulation mini-game.  It really isn't that complicated.  There is a thread about it in the Guide section and there is a YouTube video or two that will walk you through very well. 

I log in to my little sales person hero and spend around 10 to 15 minutes when I can to make sure the sweat shop is running.  I put them to work building things, converting IOs, and then unloading for profit.  I price my stuff put it on the market, and log out (or join friends for missions) since they don't often sell immediately.  I'll happily play other characters even if I am not logging in to a farm (which I really can't stand), and know I am making money with my side hustle.  I'll even start on that road on other characters too for giggles, but I often just email myself the valuable things for my crafter who then becomes the rich uncle. 

You may not think you have money now, but use that guide and you won't worry about affording purples.  You can get to a point where your own little factory workers start ensuring each new alt can have a little nest egg.  Eventually getting billions isn't out of the question. 

Edited July 29, 2019 by oldskool

[Six-Six]

Yes, I've read that guide. Quite devious, and surprisingly obvious... in retrospect.

I do play the market. I enjoy it. I treat it like a mini-game. Craft, convert, sell, buy, repeat. 😃

I usually do it in Vanguard HQ in War Zone where merit vendor and crafting table are a few steps away from each other. So at times, I'd be standing there for a good half an hour or more. Some player actually wondered why I was just standing there, not AFK. 

Edited July 29, 2019 by Six Six

[Sunsette]

The T2 effect is generally better if health or endurance are at all issues for you, given it can (but doesn't always) apply on all targets in an AoE. The T1 is unquestionably but marginally superior for hard single targets.

 

I like to grab both, but if you can only get one, it's usually the T1 for L1 to L30, T2 for L30 to L50, and the T1 for endgame imo.

 

T1 is strongest when your enhancements are weak, T2 is strongest when you have enough attacks it actually recharges reasonably fast but you're having end problems. 

 

BR is nice because at 50, you don't need either T1 or T2 for your main attack chain, they're just an opportunity trigger. 

Edited July 29, 2019 by Sunsette