An Update from The Homecoming Team

[ShardWarrior]

Just now, Omega-202 said:

No, because that's not how these things go when corporate legal teams are involved.  There are no good intentions, there's only the corporate interest.

So... corporate interests can't be derived from good intentions?

[Mjolnerd]

5 hours ago, justicebeliever said:

I'm not sure why you think Homecoming is a forever thing either...we know nothing about their structure, except they are volunteer hobbyists...If 2 or 3 have a major row or falling out, it could still be all over in 6 months...Or because of the great work they are doing, key people get recruited to do something else that takes them away from this...Very few things are permanent, and this isn't something I'd tie my long term hopes to, not because I don't want it to succeed, but because things are always evolving.

 

To be clear, I want HC to succeed, and to continue to offer the game for free for the foreseeable future...

I didn't say that, in fact I specifically included an "or as long as the HC team cares to continue it" clause to avoid being misunderstood. That'll learn me.

 

My point is that the last thing I want is for NCsoft or any other outside entity to be given the ability to easily "pull the plug remotely," so to speak. Obviously they can shut this whole thing down if they really want to, but I at least want them to have to fight to do it, rather than the players getting a few extra months and then saying "well, that was fun, but the agreement expired so I guess we'll pack it in." I'd rather force them to play whack-a-mole forever than just roll over for them because a year earlier someone made a deal to be nice to each other.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Mjolnerd

[Oklahoman]

Good luck.

 

i don’t trust NCsoft any further than my Empathy Defender can throw them.

[Abraxus]

9 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

No, because that's not how these things go when corporate legal teams are involved.  There are no good intentions, there's only the corporate interest.  

 

Could corporate interest align with the community's interest?  Sure.  

 

Is it just as or more likely that they came to the negotiating table to get more information (total accounts, active player count, copies of the current HC code, server location, legal name and address of the individuals who are running said servers)?  That information will then go to an internal team who can crunch the numbers on whether it is in the company's bottom line interest to work with the HC team or just relaunch their own legit server i24 server and use the info they gained during "negotiations" to best quash the pirate servers.  

 

The best hope is that they crunch the numbers and find its not profitable to fight the status quo.  

 

I really think it's naive to think there's any "good" intentions here.   I also think its very naive if the HC and TN teams are going into all of this without the backing of one or more lawyers of their own.  You don't ask your gardner to fix your car and you don't ask volunteer programmers to handle a dicey legal situation against a sizable corporation.  

I was referring to "good intentions" on the part of the Titan, and Homecoming teams to do their level best for us.  The players.  As for NCSoft, and their potential motivations, nobody knows.  Likely as not, most of the folks who where there, and had any involvement with, or memory of CoH are gone, or have moved on to other things.  Assuming that a corporation will always negotiate for what is in its own best interest is probably wise.  But, automatically assuming that the results of those kinds of negotiations cannot be of any benefit to anyone else, is just being purposefully negative.  Wait until all the facts are known before making assumptions based on less than complete information, conjecture, and hyperbole.  There is nothing to be gained, other than pointless discussions where nobody has the actual facts of the matter to back them up.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Abraxus

[Omega-202]

7 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

So... corporate interests can't be derived from good intentions?

Generally, no.  NCSoft and its representatives have a fiduciary duty to maximize profits for the company.  Can garnering good will be an effective strategy to help increase profits later?  Absolutely, in certain circumstances.  But that's not "good intentions", that's still maximizing profits.  

 

You have to ask yourself, how would a gesture of good will in this scenario increase profits for them in some other way?  Are we all likely to go out and buy an NCSoft game tomorrow if negotiations go well?  How many of us?  Would that be more profitable than starting a legit COH server of their own and shutting down the pirate ones?  

 

That's all that matters.  They have an obligation as a publicly traded company to focus on the bottom line. 

[Jimmy]

10 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

I also think its very naive if the HC and TN teams are going into all of this without the backing of one or more lawyers of their own. 

We have a very good lawyer.

[Omega-202]

Just now, Jimmy said:

We have a very good lawyer.

That changes the story.  I wish you guys the best and hope you're making sure to protect yourselves.  

[_NOPE_]

Just now, Omega-202 said:

That changes the story.  I wish you guys the best and hope you're making sure to protect yourselves.  

They also setup an LLC fairly early on, if I remember right - before they started publicly taking donations. Which, if I recall correctly, means that for them personally, there's now no more risk of loss to them. The worst that NCSoft could do is to tell them to shut down, and take all of the monies that HC has raised so far that haven't already been used. LLC protection (unless I'm mistaken) means that no member of the HC team is personally liable anymore, instead, it's the "Homecoming LLC company" that's liable, as if it was a person.

 

Which I think is BS, and a HUGE reason why so many things are going wrong in our society, but that's a whole different discussion.

[justicebeliever]

12 minutes ago, Mjolnerd said:

I didn't say that, in fact I specifically included an "or as long as the HC team cares to continue it" clause to avoid being misunderstood. That'll learn me.

 

My point is that the last thing I want is for NCsoft or any other outside entity to be given the ability to easily "pull the plug remotely," so to speak. Obviously they can shut this whole thing down if they really want to, but I at least want them to have to fight to do it, rather than the players getting a few extra months and then saying "well, that was fun, but the agreement expired so I guess we'll pack it in." I'd rather force them to play whack-a-mole forever than just roll over for them because a year earlier someone made a deal to be nice to each other.

I heard your disclaimer, so it wasn't pointless...shame on me a little for not calling that out...sorry

 

My point is that it sounds like your bottom line is wanting the game to go on forever...and I get that...

 

My point is that it's pointless (many of my points are pointless, I suppose), it's pointless to worry about which is the more likely outcome...Because in this case there are just too many variables...So I wouldn't worry about NCSoft being the more likely culprit to pull the rug out from underneath you...Enjoy it while you can

[Duuk]

9 hours ago, Vyx said:

You’re in negotiations with NCSoft? Oh god, this does not sound good.

Actually, that sounds VERY good.  NCSoft has no REASON to negotiate with the Homecoming team.  They could just slap a Cease and Desist bomb on them and walk away.

 

Instead, they're negotiating with them as an entity, which means they believe that the HC team has something to offer.  That's a huge positive.  Huge.  As a small business owner that went through a lawsuit that involved 6-figure sums when I split off from my previous employer, I can tell you that "negotiation = good". 

 

Since everyone has been doing the Chicken Little act, let me give some OTHER possible scenarios:

 

The Homecoming Team becomes the OFFICIAL NCSoft approved City of Heroes team.  ALL OF THE OTHER SERVERS GET CEASE AND DESIST letters and any players on those servers are encouraged to come here because this is the official City of Heroes APPROVED servers.

 

The Homecoming Team gets OFFICIAL ACCESS to the original code and development tools under a license.

 

Things they may have to concede and give up:

 

Homecoming GMs go back to policing copywritten/trademarked characters (which may be as simple as banning a list of names) to protect NCSoft/Homecoming.

The in-game advertising goes live again and advertises NCSoft projects on billboards.

Some form of monthly report on user data and project status gets sent to NCSoft.

 

And that last one isn't a bad thing anyway, since the HC team can sign their names to it and show off their skills and may get hired by NCSoft for in-house project management or design teams.  Including, say, New City of Heroes. 

 

NCSoft may even agree to host the servers (for them, a nominal expense) to gain oversight of the project.  Then they make it a 3 year trial agreement while they gauge the interest in New City of Heroes at a cost of $10k a month (which is nothing) and have advertising to users AND have a volunteer staff.  There is almost no downside.

[justicebeliever]

1 minute ago, The Philotic Knight said:

They also setup an LLC fairly early on, if I remember right - before they started publicly taking donations. Which, if I recall correctly, means that for them personally, there's now no more risk of loss to them. The worst that NCSoft could do is to tell them to shut down, and take all of the monies that HC has raised so far that haven't already been used. LLC protection (unless I'm mistaken) means that no member of the HC team is personally liable anymore, instead, it's the "Homecoming LLC company" that's liable, as if it was a person.

 

Which I think is BS, and a HUGE reason why so many things are going wrong in our society, but that's a whole different discussion.

It's an SMLLC, (single member llc), so there is only ONE person that is technically HC at this point...not sure who...

 

And it's legal protection for bootlegging are probably more sparse than they would like...They are well protected from us...just not NCSoft...

[Omega-202]

1 minute ago, The Philotic Knight said:

They also setup an LLC fairly early on, if I remember right - before they started publicly taking donations. Which, if I recall correctly, means that for them personally, there's now no more risk of loss to them. The worst that NCSoft could do is to tell them to shut down, and take all of the monies that HC has raised so far that haven't already been used. LLC protection (unless I'm mistaken) means that no member of the HC team is personally liable anymore, instead, it's the "Homecoming LLC company" that's liable, as if it was a person.

 

Which I think is BS, and a HUGE reason why so many things are going wrong in our society, but that's a whole different discussion.

LLC's cannot be set up with express intent of covering for illegal activity.  There's definitely some issues here as the LLC could be considered to be set up with the intent to skirt IP issues.  

[Jimmy]

Just on the advertising thing - that code was stripped from the game a long time ago. It was a third party plugin that can't really be brought back even if for some bizarre reason we wanted to.

 

I suppose we could manually patch images onto the billboards but... yeah, no, that's a silly idea 🙂

[Jimmy]

1 minute ago, Omega-202 said:

LLC's cannot be set up with express intent of covering for illegal activity.  There's definitely some issues here as the LLC could be considered to be set up with the intent to skirt IP issues.  

The primary reason for setting up the LLC was actually tax protection. An LLC can spend money on server costs and write it off as an expense, essentially ending a financial period with zero income.

An individual cannot do this, they would be taxed on the income before being able to spend it on server costs.

[_NOPE_]

1 minute ago, Jimmy said:

Just on the advertising thing - that code was stripped from the game a long time ago. It was a third party plugin that can't really be brought back even if for some bizarre reason we wanted to.

 

I suppose we could manually patch images onto the billboards but... yeah, no, that's a silly idea 🙂

 

[ShardWarrior]

13 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

Generally, no.  NCSoft and its representatives have a fiduciary duty to maximize profits for the company.  Can garnering good will be an effective strategy to help increase profits later?  Absolutely, in certain circumstances.  But that's not "good intentions", that's still maximizing profits.  

 

You have to ask yourself, how would a gesture of good will in this scenario increase profits for them in some other way?  Are we all likely to go out and buy an NCSoft game tomorrow if negotiations go well?  How many of us?  Would that be more profitable than starting a legit COH server of their own and shutting down the pirate ones?  

 

That's all that matters.  They have an obligation as a publicly traded company to focus on the bottom line. 

I was speaking in general terms, not about NCSoft specifically.

[Omega-202]

1 minute ago, Jimmy said:

The primary reason for setting up the LLC was actually tax protection. An LLC can spend money on server costs and write it off as an expense, essentially ending a financial period with zero income.

An individual cannot do this, they would be taxed on the income before being able to spend it on server costs.

Fully understood.  But server costs FOR what?  Because the answer to that question, along with the legal status of the IP being hosted on said server is the issue.  It could come down to proving intent. 

[Omega-202]

1 minute ago, ShardWarrior said:

I was speaking in general terms, not about NCSoft specifically.

And the answer is the same for any publicly traded company.  There is no such thing as good intentions if they have an obligation to shareholders.  

[Amatyr]

16 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

We have a very good lawyer.

[justicebeliever]

35 minutes ago, GM Widower said:

I'm sorry, Abraxus, but that sounds an awful lot like logic and reasoning, and that's not allowed here. Please move along. /s

I hear you Widower...and I am genuinely excited for you guys...but seriously, what did you all expect?  When you give vague information, almost universally, people (not Clockwork) tend to fill in the gaps themselves, and almost universally, people (not Nemesis Automatons) tend to fill them in based on their own personal experiences, which include a lot of bad situations...Usually, (not always), vagueness is used to buy someone time to share/dispense bad information...I honestly don't think that's the case here, but it's still to be expected

 

So I would agree that the Clockwork and Automatons should only react logically, I would hope the people here react with emotion...some with joy, but because it's vague, many with FUD...

[ShardWarrior]

Just now, Omega-202 said:

And the answer is the same for any publicly traded company.  There is no such thing as good intentions if they have an obligation to shareholders.  

Not really interested in derailing the thread on this, but I would be happy to take this to PMs to educate you on how this is not true in all cases.

[Duuk]

16 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

Generally, no.  NCSoft and its representatives have a fiduciary duty to maximize profits for the company.  Can garnering good will be an effective strategy to help increase profits later?  Absolutely, in certain circumstances.  But that's not "good intentions", that's still maximizing profits.  

 

You have to ask yourself, how would a gesture of good will in this scenario increase profits for them in some other way?  Are we all likely to go out and buy an NCSoft game tomorrow if negotiations go well?  How many of us?  Would that be more profitable than starting a legit COH server of their own and shutting down the pirate ones?  

 

That's all that matters.  They have an obligation as a publicly traded company to focus on the bottom line. 

I'd be much more willing to believe that NCSoft would be using the HC team as a free-or-close-to-free test balloon for CoX2 to see if it would be worth investing in a new version.  By making an "official" City of Heroes server, smacking down all unofficials and publicly backing 1 official server they can put an actual gauge on the interest level on monetizing their IP.

 

The  fact that it has knock-on "goodwill" effects is secondary.  I mean, if I was their PR department I'd spin it as "We're so excited to have a player/fan community to work with bringing City of Heroes back to the fans!" complete with cupcakes and confetti, but my real reasons would be testing the waters for "How can I make money on what I thought was a dead IP?"

[EmperorSteele]

26 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

We have a very good lawyer.

...

Just one?

Against an entire corporation?!

Does Conservation of Ninjitsu work in a legal setting?

[doc_miller]

28 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

NCSoft and its representatives have a fiduciary duty to maximize profits for the company.

Just for the record, while widely believed, this is not true in either the US or Korea.  While the idea had been dominant in management theory since the 80s, there are no legal requirements to maximize shareholder return, and thare are legal precedents specifically refuting this requirement.

[justicebeliever]

8 minutes ago, doc_miller said:

Just for the record, while widely believed, this is not true in either the US or Korea.  While the idea had been dominant in management theory since the 80s, there are no legal requirements to maximize shareholder return, and thare are legal precedents specifically refuting this requirement.

Technically, this is true, and I have mistated this myself...

 

But there are definitive fiduciary duties that corporate officers have to their stockholders, and it is to ensure that the best interests of the stockholders are met...