Focused Feedback: Snipes and Dominator changes

[Tater Todd]

To all wanting this topic separated.  I think they combined the two topics because in all honesty a lot of my fellow Doms kinda took over the Snipe thread including myself lol.  It was mostly because Dominators had a harder time than other classes when it came to meeting the requirements for a fast snipe.

[Rooks]

Just went on to test and the Spinning Kick nerf seems a little harsh, going from 95 to 65. It was quite obviously overbalanced before but this seems like a heavy nerf to melee damage for what is essentially (or at least I assumed thematically) a melee set, especially when it seems like every other dominator assault set's overall melee power is getting a buff. I wonder if going at the idea of martial assault being OP this hard from both angles at once only just reverses the issue rather than solving it. I love the buffs to the other sets but when you compare DPAs across sets now if feels like Martial Assault lags behind noticeably now. FWIW the Thunder Kick nerf seems fair enough to me. Maybe the set is in good balance and I'm just upset that it seems so much more shuriken focused than kick focused (I love my kicks quite a lot). But yeah.

 

Even if the recharge times "make up" for the reduced damage, most domis that are trying to be competitive have an eff load of recharge bonuses anyway which kind of makes faster recharging, lower damage sets inherently less useful for dominators unless their dpa keeps up with the heavier hitters, in my opinion.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Rooks

[Rooks]

6 minutes ago, Rooks said:

FWIW the Thunder Kick nerf seems fair enough to me.

That said, if its old DPA was so busted why is the new contaminated strike essentially being turned in to the old thunder kick, but with a superior activation time? Doesn't that make contaminated strike more OP than thunder kick ever was?

 

This is kind of what I mean by double pronged nerf/buffs going a bit far imo

[Captain Powerhouse]

The biggest difference between the two sets is that Martial Assault has an easy-to-perma 15% base damage increase power in Envenom Blades. While Envenom Blades is active, the power does 91.98 dps (bit higher than Contaminated Strike.) 

 

Note that unlike most other global Procs, Envenomed blades should use any slots in the power, in addition to any +dmg buffs you get. It's an extremely powerful buff.

[Rooks]

So do Martial Assault users have to wait for permadom IO builds to match functionality with other Dominator Assault sets? Especially considering other sets get Build Ups too. Honestly my focus is more on the Spinning Kick nerf anyway, it feels heavy handed when you consider its use as both a cone and the 2nd chainable melee attack in a set with only two melee attacks, notwithstanding the pbaoe which every domi assault set seems to get on fairly even ground. A role Spinning Kick shares with Ripper. Now, obviously Ripper should be way stronger, it's a later tier power, it has a longer activation. But its base damage is practically double even before the DoTs which take it way over that threshold. That the difference is that large for two powers which share such similar functions seems a bit wrong from my perspective. In my mind a Martial Assault set should have more of a focus on melee power than it does in this iteration, I guess is my primary point. 

 

Because of its use in a melee attack chain I feel like its comp should be closer to something like Sweeping Cross than Flashing Steel. Weaker cones are balanced in melee damage sets because you switch to using it over other options when you want to aoe. But Martial Assault Domis use Spinning Kick when in melee in general because they have no other options after using Thunder Kick.

 

In my mind, if any of the Domi assault sets should have a melee attack chain that's worth bothering with, it would make sense to be the one borne conceptually from an existing melee set.

 

 

But if the math says Martial Assault is still as good or better than everything else even despite the 33%ish dmg nerf to one of its only 2 melee powers (while the other is also being nerfed) then I guess I need to sit down lol

Edited August 12, 2019 by Rooks

[Captain Powerhouse]

23 minutes ago, Rooks said:

That the difference us that large for two powers which share such similar functions seems a bit wrong from my perspective. In my mind a Martial Assault set should have more of a focus on melee power than it does in this iteration, I guess is my primary point. 

If I had made the set myself from scratch, there would be more melee attacks, the live team decided to go for a more ninja approach with plenty of shuriken throws and caltrops, though. I would have certainly put Eagle's Claw as the set's T9.

 

Anyways, all powers need to be accounted for when balancing sets. I know the desire to be able to punch more often (or kick, in this case) when using Assault Sets, but balance wise, ranged attacks dont become any less effective when used at melee range. That being told, I will look into potential compromises.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Captain Powerhouse

[Tubalcain]

Could Electric Assault's Build Up be swapped to Power Boost as well? As it stands now, sets with secondary effect modifiers from powers like Power Boost make them better for sapping with Electric Control than having Electric Assault as a secondary and that's always seemed a bit silly to me.

[Bossk_Hogg]

I don't understand the Thunderkick nerf when you're creating multiple new powers with similar DPA. Doms and other characters with two active sets want powers with high impact to maximize their action economy, They don't benefit as much from fast charging attacks as they also sprinkle in control with their attack chains.

 

Previously Thunderkick had a DPA of 115.4. With the proposed change it moves to 92.8.

Contaminated Strike went from a DPA of 97.8 to 115.3 plus contamination

Skewer went to DPA of 115.4 plus DOT chance

[MuonNeutrino]

1 hour ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

That being told, I will look into potential compromises.

I think this would be a good place to revisit the mechanic of mutually exclusive alternate power choices that was used for Sentinel SR, where you can take either Master Brawler or Practiced Brawler but not both.

 

For the people who don't like Spinning Kick's AoE and just wanted to use it as a regular melee attack, give Martial Assault an 8s or 10s recharge version of Storm Kick and make it mutually exclusive with Spinning Kick. And for the people who wish the set was more melee and less ranged, give it a 14-16s recharge version of Eagle's Claw and make it mutually exclusive with Explosive Shuriken. Now you get to have your cake and eat it too.

 

(Honestly this mechanic could be useful for a lot of things. You could use it to give masterminds the ability to summon visually-different flavors of pets, for example - e.g. beast mastery with 'summon bigger wolves' as a mechanically-identical alternate to the t2 pet for people who want all canines.)

Edited August 12, 2019 by MuonNeutrino

[Bossk_Hogg]

14 hours ago, Arkterusss said:

Interesting, shorter cast times on a few powers that share the "total focus" animation.  Curiously, Thunderstrike was left out.

 

Any plans on letting Brutes/Scrappers/Stalkers/Tankers get the benefit of faster cast times on these powers later on?

 

 

I'm surprised there were no changes to Elec Assault. Havoc Punch is at the lower end of the melee attack's DPA, and Thunderstrike is uniformly garbage in all sets. 

 

Is the formula for Thunderstrike accurately reflecting that only a small portion of the damage is AE? If the everyone was hit for the full amount it would actually be relatively balanced. 

[Trickshooter]

26 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Is the formula for Thunderstrike accurately reflecting that only a small portion of the damage is AE? If the everyone was hit for the full amount it would actually be relatively balanced. 

Unless something has changed, Dominator's Thunder Strike does damage as if it's a ST attack. It does about 2% less damage than it should for it's recharge time if it were a true ST attack. It's endurance cost though is calculated for an AoE attack, a problem it shares with the Blaster/Defender versions, but was corrected for the Brute/Tanker/Scrapper/Stalker versions waaaay back when.

[Bossk_Hogg]

1 hour ago, Trickshooter said:

Unless something has changed, Dominator's Thunder Strike does damage as if it's a ST attack. It does about 2% less damage than it should for it's recharge time if it were a true ST attack. It's endurance cost though is calculated for an AoE attack, a problem it shares with the Blaster/Defender versions, but was corrected for the Brute/Tanker/Scrapper/Stalker versions waaaay back when.

Does it really? It deals less damage than Ripper, which is a faster recharge, animation, and a cone that hits more targets. The animation time coupled with melee knockback (ugh) is a huge drawback. Thunderstrike is a DPS loss, and an artifact of the original devs poor design.  

 

Lower its damage like 20%, turn the KB into KD and make it a true PBAE and it would see use. That would put it on par with something like Atom Smasher. 

[Replacement]

10 hours ago, Gulbasaur said:

They seem to be based entirely off the i22 changes to stalker's assassin's strike, which is basically a melee snipe, so it's not like there is no precedent.

 

Indeed, and so it's no surprise that Homecoming is looking to base it off of what's already working very well for Stalkers: fast strike in-combat, long CD when out of combat (instead tied to Hidden).  No sacred cows were hurt in this change.

[QuiJon]

16 hours ago, HelenCarnate said:

Hell yes please. Energy Melee needs some love and Impale is way too slow currently for spines.  Several ranged attacks from the epic/patron pools have better DPA making it a power that is often skipped. 

I always love that when ever a AT or a squishie power set gets some love to bring it up to par with other sets when it has classically been underperforming we inevitably suddenly get those that are playing already some of the most highly performing over powered ATs in the game come crying "wah, but what about us." Brutes, Tanks, Scrapper have like 15 power sets and like 13 of them perform above average in so far as DPS is concerned. Its like ohhhh I am sorry that the one single target ranged attack in a set that has some of the best AOE damage in the melee game is under performing for you. Did you ever for once think that was intentional to the set BECAUSE spines is an AOE heavy set? As opposed to epic pools that are geared for all to use rather then within a set of 9 power choices. 

How about this, how about when dominators can go and tank a wall of giant monsters in the hive like a tanker or a brute we will stop and start paying attention to melee's needs again.

[Trickshooter]

33 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Does it really? It deals less damage than Ripper, which is a faster recharge, animation, and a cone that hits more targets. The animation time coupled with melee knockback (ugh) is a huge drawback. Thunderstrike is a DPS loss, and an artifact of the original devs poor design.  

 

Lower its damage like 20%, turn the KB into KD and make it a true PBAE and it would see use. That would put it on par with something like Atom Smasher. 

Sorry, I flubbed my math. A 16s recharge ST attack would actually do 2.92 scale damage, while Thunder Strike does 2.354 scale damage. However, if Thunder Strike was balanced as an AoE attack, it would do 1.04 scale damage at 16s recharge.

 

It's probably originally balanced as ST, but scaled back because of the Stun chance, more than because of the AoE damage. I would agree that it could probably use some reworking.

 

I'm kind of curious if Electricity Assault was completely untouched in this patch, or if it's patch notes just got lost.

[Captain Powerhouse]

On 8/11/2019 at 2:53 PM, vegetableknife said:

Can the pvp damage effects of "Explosive Shuriken" be looked at?  On live the damage is gutted because I think its considered AOE even though as stated, it doesnt take AOE enhancements. 

Looking at the numbers, the patch currently on Justin should have auto-adjusted the PvP damage, as the power is now a single target attack that executes a secondary power for it's AoE. Test and let me know if it still looks wrong.

[Thezanman]

4 minutes ago, QuiJon said:

I always love that when ever a AT or a squishie power set gets some love to bring it up to par with other sets when it has classically been underperforming we inevitably suddenly get those that are playing already some of the most highly performing over powered ATs in the game come crying "wah, but what about us." Brutes, Tanks, Scrapper have like 15 power sets and like 13 of them perform above average in so far as DPS is concerned. Its like ohhhh I am sorry that the one single target ranged attack in a set that has some of the best AOE damage in the melee game is under performing for you. Did you ever for once think that was intentional to the set BECAUSE spines is an AOE heavy set? As opposed to epic pools that are geared for all to use rather then within a set of 9 power choices. 

How about this, how about when dominators can go and tank a wall of giant monsters in the hive like a tanker or a brute we will stop and start paying attention to melee's needs again.

If epic pool powers can already beat the DPA of Impale, then there is no reason not to buff it. It wouldn't increase the overall power level, but would prevent people from being forced into those specific pools.

[QuiJon]

4 minutes ago, Thezanman said:

If epic pool powers can already beat the DPA of Impale, then there is no reason not to buff it. It wouldn't increase the overall power level, but would prevent people from being forced into those specific pools.

Who is being forced? If is a freakin choice. This is not the forum for this discussion but I started it so I guess I can not complain. But we all make choices when building a character. Do I use resources to achieve enough to hit buffs to get insta snipe at max damage or just enjoy it at lower dps but still isnta? That is a choice. Do I put resources into my melee attacks on my blaster though I spend only 15 percent of my time in melee or do I use them another way? That is a choice. 

Epic pools were intended to be gap fillers. Allowing a player to fill in for things that their specific power set choices might have left lacking. Spines was originally one of the few melee sets with a ranged attack at all. It was not intended to compare to an epic pool but to be a balance within its own pool. But hey now at level 35 you get a choice, do you take an epic pool that allows you to have a slightly faster animation on a ST ranged attack and tools to help your end consumption then hey maybe take body mastery. But wait a minute I could take this other pool and get a St and AOE ranged attack and a power that debuffs damage resistance...… It is about the freakin choices. That is why a normal set power has no need or should be balanced to a epic pool power. 

[Dan Petro]

46 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Looking at the numbers, the patch currently on Justin should have auto-adjusted the PvP damage, as the power is now a single target attack that executes a secondary power for it's AoE. Test and let me know if it still looks wrong.

I am seeing 167 base damage in PvP for it, so that looks right to me.  

 

I do however see an issue with the tier 1 attack seeminly doing much less damage than intended (21 in PvE and 34 in PvP) as well as trick shot's chain range being insanely small.  Both issues can be seen in this short video. MA Dominator

[Riverdusk]

21 hours ago, HelenCarnate said:

Hell yes please. Energy Melee needs some love and Impale is way too slow currently for spines.  Several ranged attacks from the epic/patron pools have better DPA making it a power that is often skipped. 

That and more for stone melee.  Stone melee is such a fun smashy feeling set, to me it signifies how a brute should "feel" more than any other melee set.  However, it's one and only real AoE power (tremor) is absolute garbage with the now old 3.3 sec activation time and whopping 12.64 base DPA because of it.  Added insult that tremor is the tier 9 power that you'd think would feel extra good.    Tremor even being lowered to "only" 2.5 seconds activation would make it at least a little more decent.  

 

Love seeing the boost for the dom version though!

Edited August 13, 2019 by Riverdusk

[csr]

7 hours ago, Trickshooter said:

Sorry, I flubbed my math. A 16s recharge ST attack would actually do 2.92 scale damage, while Thunder Strike does 2.354 scale damage. However, if Thunder Strike was balanced as an AoE attack, it would do 1.04 scale damage at 16s recharge.

 

It's probably originally balanced as ST, but scaled back because of the Stun chance, more than because of the AoE damage. I would agree that it could probably use some reworking.

 

I'm kind of curious if Electricity Assault was completely untouched in this patch, or if it's patch notes just got lost.

It appears very close to the 2.92 ST damage if you apply the 2.8 multiplier only to the AoE portion.  It also hits 16 targets.  Still, it really should have gotten the 2.53s animation buff that Total Focus and Tremor got.

 

The issues most people I know have with it are the animation time and the combination of weak AoE damage coupled with KB so that it barely scratches foes and then scatters them.  It's just not an attractive power to those of us who love ST DPA (where it sucks), powerful burst AoE damage (which it doesn't even come close to providing) and despise KB because we like our foes packed 200 to a dumpster.

 

Personally, my /Elect Dom is Earth, so I can fix the KB, but it still simply takes too long on a class that has better things to do than casting a 3.3s mostly ST attack that requires setup not to scatter the spawn I'm trying to control.

 

EDIT:

 

Whooppsss, got caught up in TS and didn't respond to what I meant to.  As far as I can tell the only change to Electricity Assault was the snipe change to Zapp.

Edited August 13, 2019 by csr

[csr]

On 8/11/2019 at 10:48 AM, Leandro said:

Powers - Dominator Assault Sets

• Savage Assault
  • Spot Prey: This power now grants +68% damage buff and +17 Tohit. Before: +42.5% damage buff and +42.5 ToHit. No longer grants a perception buff.
  • Vicious Slash: Recharge increased from 9 seconds to 11 seconds. Damage increased from 105.1 to 123.8 damage.
  • Call Hawk: Recharge increased from 12 seconds to 15 seconds. Damage increased accordingly (variable damage, aprox +14.4% damage increase.)

The clarification regarding Unkindness' Blood Frenzy usage is missing from here.  Also, the description for the power still includes "While exhausted you cannot gain Bloody Frenzy" and makes no mention of it adding a stack.

[Leandro]

On 8/11/2019 at 11:17 PM, kajmir said:

Where do we find this set at? I've checked the Merit Vendor for it and it's not listed under the PVP IO recipes so far. (Also, I scanned through here for a discussion on this topic and if someone posted this same question, I'm sorry I missed it.)

Recipe > PVP IO Set > Sniper Attacks > Experienced Marksman

[Uruare]

The snipe changes are pretty solid.  No nerf at all to those that already had their +ToHit built up, and it opens up fast snipe at all levels of play instead of gating it behind tight-tweaked IO'ing.

 

 

[csr]

On 8/11/2019 at 10:48 AM, Leandro said:

Powers - Dominator Assault Sets

• Thorny Assault
  • Aim replaced with Build Up.
  • Skewer: Cast time reduced from 1.63 seconds to 0.83 seconds. Recharge time lowered from 10 seconds to 8 seconds. Damage lowered from 114.45 to 95.8 damage. Chance for DoT increased from 80% to 85%.
  • Impale: Cast time reduced from 2.43 seconds to 1.43 seconds. Recharge increased from 8 to 12 seconds. Damage increased from 86.6 to 120.5 damage.
  • Thorn Barrage: Recharge time increased from  11 to 14 seconds. Damage increased from 112 to 137 damage.

I'm not crazy about these changes.   Skewer and Impale got major buffs, while the under-performing T9 got a minor one and the T1 remains awful.  Impale is clearly superior to Thorn Barrage.  It does better DPA, comparable D/cycle, and has -SPD/Fly/Jump and Immob to go with the high -Def (-22.5%!) and Toxic DoT.   Skewer is now one of the highest DPA powers in the game.  And with the change Thorn Barrage remains a dubious power choice.  I'd like to see TB go to 16s recharge and Impale come down to 10 and Skewer to 7 to spread the buffage more evenly.
 

On a side note, the -Def in this set remains questionably strong.  It's comparable to Radiation Blast on a Defender; and Defenders are debuff specialists.  Also it's a tertiary effect on the powers, behind the base damage and Toxic DoT.