Suggestion: Dominator Power Proliferation to Sentinels

[Nexys]

I am thrilled that Sentinels are in Homecoming.  I love having a ranged character with a defense set.  However, having only the Blaster/Corrupter/Defender sets proliferated over to Sentinels is, I feel, rather limiting in character concepts.  Only Dominators and Blasters (both of whom lack defense sets), can give you a strong "Blapper" feel, and because of the lack of defense sets on them, it's painfully easy to face-plant every five minutes.  Is there any chance of getting the Dominator assault sets proliferated over to Sentinels?  An Energy Assault/Energy Aura character who wades in and out of melee range would be a blast to play and would get some more player characters who are doing more than running in to the center of a spawn (like Brutes, Tanks, etc) or hovering at the outskirts (like Blasters, Defenders, etc).

 

Now, I know that there are ways to softcap some defenses on Doms and Blasters, but most of those strategies mean you have to take certain powers like Tough and Weave.  For players, like me, who are not really good at builds or interesting in min/max stats, it becomes really limiting.

 

Thoughts?

[Mischief Manager]

hmm, assuming the range and target cap changes stay the same

as sentinels i dont see a down side really.

 

the idea has my vote +1

 

 

ps: although now i think of it there will need to be a some kind of balance buff/nerf on how IO sets effects gameplay or the powers themselves

[Steampunkette]

I'd rather see a separate Assault/Defense Archetype created (And even suggested one in the Instigator as a new Tanky-Type character)

 

But I'd still love to see this.

[Nexys]

2 hours ago, Mischief Manager said:

hmm, assuming the range and target cap changes stay the same

as sentinels i dont see a down side really.

 

the idea has my vote +1

 

 

ps: although now i think of it there will need to be a some kind of balance buff/nerf on how IO sets effects gameplay or the powers themselves

I don't know enough about the IO sets and their balance.  What could become unbalanced about them?  Just curious.

[Nexys]

2 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

I'd rather see a separate Assault/Defense Archetype created (And even suggested one in the Instigator as a new Tanky-Type character)

 

But I'd still love to see this.

I like that, and like the Instigator name.  It could be a nice hybrid between the Tanks/Brutes/Scrappers and the Sentinel/Blaster types.  Someone who isn't necessarily as tough as a Tank or as DPS heavy as a Blaster, but who brings the best of both worlds....almost a "loose cannon / shoot first, ask questions later" type.

[Rathulfr]

55 minutes ago, Nexys said:

I like that, and like the Instigator name.  It could be a nice hybrid between the Tanks/Brutes/Scrappers and the Sentinel/Blaster types.  Someone who isn't necessarily as tough as a Tank or as DPS heavy as a Blaster, but who brings the best of both worlds....almost a "loose cannon / shoot first, ask questions later" type.

 

I'm not sure how I feel about this.  I already get enough crap for actually liking and playing Sentinels (I have a half-dozen or so), because "everybody knows" that Sentinels suck at both damage and defense, and contribute nothing to a team that isn't done better by other ATs.  Sentinels are the red-headed step-child of Homecoming, and creating a melee-focused twin may instigate (see what I did there?) only more mockery and derision.  Do we really need another melee AT?  Why not just proliferate the assault sets to the existing melee ATs, instead?

 

I'm not trying to be malicious, really: I'm all for more diversity of builds.  But given all the psychic damage I've taken (ibid) for playing Sentinels, I'm not sure I'd wish that on anyone else who dares to love Instigators.

 

Edited August 15, 2019 by Rathulfr

[XaoGarrent]

1 hour ago, Nexys said:

I don't know enough about the IO sets and their balance.  What could become unbalanced about them?  Just curious.

People are having too much fun being powerful again, and obviously we can't have THAT in a superhero game! 🤡

[XaoGarrent]

I really think that an AT that mixes Assault sets with defense secondaries would, conceptually, make the most sense as a nod to Shonen characters. Since a mix of melee techniques and ranged blasts of different sorts are a genre defining feature. If there's one good argument to making a new AT that mixes the two, rather than tacking assault sets onto an existing AT, it's this.

[honoroit]

Love it in concept, but scaling on the assault might have to be way down versus a dom?

 

Part of why seismic smash hits like a truck, or gloom dots to hell, is a high dom dmg multiplier coupled with  thin def res natively from powersets in the AT.

 

Unlike controller cousins, there's no secondary supporting cc not going according to plan. 

 

Blasters I don't know enough about to comment on. 

 

[Nexys]

46 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

 

I'm not sure how I feel about this.  I already get enough crap for actually liking and playing Sentinels (I have a half-dozen or so), because "everybody knows" that Sentinels suck at both damage and defense, and contribute nothing to a team that isn't done better by other ATs.  Sentinels are the red-headed step-child of Homecoming, and creating a melee-focused twin may instigate (see what I did there?) only more mockery and derision.  Do we really need another melee AT?  Why not just proliferate the assault sets to the existing melee ATs, instead?

 

I'm not trying to be malicious, really: I'm all for more diversity of builds.  But given all the psychic damage I've taken (ibid) for playing Sentinels, I'm not sure I'd wish that on anyone else who dares to love Instigators.

 

That makes sense to me.  My first choice would be to give Sentinels the chance to take the Assault sets as well as the Ranged.  An Energy Blast Sentinel would feel and play differently than an Energy Assault Sentinel.  But, if the Homecoming Powers That Be would prefer not to proliferate sets, then a new AT would be my second choice.

[Nexys]

2 minutes ago, honoroit said:

Love it in concept, but scaling on the assault might have to be way down versus a dom?

 

Part of why seismic smash hits like a truck, or gloom dots to hell, is a high dom dmg multiplier coupled with  thin def res natively from powersets in the AT.

 

Unlike controller cousins, there's no secondary supporting cc not going according to plan. 

 

Blasters I don't know enough about to comment on. 

 

That is a fair point, and I'd be okay with scaling the Assault set damage down a bit (similar to how the Blast sets got scaled down compared to Blasters).  My ultimate goal is to be able to play a mixed melee/ranged character that has some defense.

[XaoGarrent]

4 minutes ago, honoroit said:

Love it in concept, but scaling on the assault might have to be way down versus a dom?

 

Part of why seismic smash hits like a truck, or gloom dots to hell, is a high dom dmg multiplier coupled with  thin def res natively from powersets in the AT.

 

Unlike controller cousins, there's no secondary supporting cc not going according to plan. 

 

Blasters I don't know enough about to comment on. 

 

Dominator scalars are already lower than Blaster and Scrapper, and applying Assault sets to any other AT would see different base damage values. ...And Seismic Smash hitting like a truck is just kinda what Seismic Smash does. The Brute version hits even harder, once you have fury stacked up. Point is: The damage of various abilities is modified by the various mechanics of whatever AT it's on.

[Steampunkette]

1 hour ago, Rathulfr said:

 

I'm not sure how I feel about this.  I already get enough crap for actually liking and playing Sentinels (I have a half-dozen or so), because "everybody knows" that Sentinels suck at both damage and defense, and contribute nothing to a team that isn't done better by other ATs.  Sentinels are the red-headed step-child of Homecoming, and creating a melee-focused twin may instigate (see what I did there?) only more mockery and derision.  Do we really need another melee AT?  Why not just proliferate the assault sets to the existing melee ATs, instead?

 

I'm not trying to be malicious, really: I'm all for more diversity of builds.  But given all the psychic damage I've taken (ibid) for playing Sentinels, I'm not sure I'd wish that on anyone else who dares to love Instigators.

 

"Melee Focused Twin"

 

Would be a Scrapper. An Instigator would be more of a split between Melee and Ranged and, personally, I'd prefer they had inherent Taunts in their attacks to make them into aggro managers who use Sentinel defense values and thus can't just hang out in melee. 

 

50 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

I really think that an AT that mixes Assault sets with defense secondaries would, conceptually, make the most sense as a nod to Shonen characters. Since a mix of melee techniques and ranged blasts of different sorts are a genre defining feature. If there's one good argument to making a new AT that mixes the two, rather than tacking assault sets onto an existing AT, it's this.

Spider-Man. Ranged attacks, melee, and defensive capabilities. Captain Marvel: Same thing

 

Shonen are fine and dandy, but come on! There's dozens of comic book heroes that use their powers at range and in melee, mixing it up based on their needs and their enemies.

Edited August 15, 2019 by Steampunkette

[XaoGarrent]

Just now, Steampunkette said:

"Melee Focused Twin"

 

Would be a Scrapper. An Instigator would be more of a split between melee and AoE and, personally, I'd prefer they had inherent Taunts in their attacks to make them into aggro managers who use Sentinel defense values and thus can't just hang out in melee. 

 

Spider-Man. Ranged attacks, melee, and defensive capabilities. Captain Marvel: Same thing

 

Shonen are fine and dandy, but come on! There's dozens of comic book heroes that use their powers at range and in melee, mixing it up based on their needs and their enemies.

Spider-Man is more of a Scrapper with a couple ranged attacks, I. E. maybe take some ranged, gadget themed pool powers, if we're to put it in City of Heroes terms. I'm actually not too familiar with Captain Marvel, so you could be on target with her.

 

My point was more that you see this sort of thing in a much more defining and consistent manner in Shonen, and honestly I'm just trying to give the strongest argument I can to create such an AT. That isn't to say you can't find heroes that are defined by a mixture of ranged, melee and defensive abilities smeared all across DC and Marvel- Deadpool immediately comes to mind- it's moreso that I'm looking for something that is a *defining* archetype within a certain genre, and it's hard to find a unifying concept for such in traditional comic books... They seem to be kinda scattered about without a unifying concept with which you could build an archetype's features out of.

[Rathulfr]

1 hour ago, Nexys said:

That is a fair point, and I'd be okay with scaling the Assault set damage down a bit (similar to how the Blast sets got scaled down compared to Blasters).  My ultimate goal is to be able to play a mixed melee/ranged character that has some defense.

 

Okay, now I see what you're driving at: you're angling for a dedicated "Blapper" AT.  They're not Scrappers, because those have no ranged attacks.  They're not Blasters, because those have no defense powers (except for Tactical Arrow, which gets Gymnastics, a.k.a. "The Other Combat Jumping").  They're not Sentinels, because those have no melee attacks.  They're not Dominators, because those have "assault" as secondary to the "control" primary.  Now I get it.

 

+1 Instigators then.  I won't play one, because I'm not a fan of blapping.  But I can see how others might enjoy that!

 

(edit) But will they still retain any control powers?  If not, I'm afraid they're going to get crapped on harder than Sentinels do now.

(edit 2) Ok, I see where @Steampunkette mentions taunt for aggro management.  That's a sort of control.  But now we drive into the tanks vs. brutes conundrum... and I ain't touching that with a ten foot pole.

(edit 3) I wish my Sentinels had some kind of taunt/aggro management capabilities.  More often than not, I'm usually tanking/off-tanking with them anyway...

 

Edited August 15, 2019 by Rathulfr

[Steampunkette]

8 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

Spider-Man is more of a Scrapper with a couple ranged attacks, I. E. maybe take some ranged, gadget themed pool powers, if we're to put it in City of Heroes terms. I'm actually not too familiar with Captain Marvel, so you could be on target with her.

 

My point was more that you see this sort of thing in a much more defining and consistent manner in Shonen, and honestly I'm just trying to give the strongest argument I can to create such an AT. That isn't to say you can't find heroes that are defined by a mixture of ranged, melee and defensive abilities smeared all across DC and Marvel- Deadpool immediately comes to mind- it's moreso that I'm looking for something that is a *defining* archetype within a certain genre, and it's hard to find a unifying concept for such in traditional comic books... They seem to be kinda scattered about without a unifying concept with which you could build an archetype's features out of.

Definitely not a 'Defining Feature' of any given comic book archetype. I'll give you that.

 

But, honestly, none of the archetypes as presented in City of Heroes actually line up with Comic Book characters perfectly... At least until you add in some powersets.

 

But Captain Marvel, Nova, and soooo many other characters fit an "Energy Assault" powerset just beautifully, but don't fit a single Control Powerset at -all-. Instead it would make more sense to give them a Defense Secondary. Similarly, there's a lot of "Fire Assault" and "Ice Assault" characters who use elemental powers in every situation. And let's not forget characters like Ghost Rider or Spawn who will lash you with flaming chains and then punch you with skeletal, or metal-reinforced, fists in melee.

 

When you really look at Comics -hard-, Assault style characters appear a whole heck of a lot more often than 'Dominator' characters.

[Steampunkette]

10 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

 

Okay, now I see what you're driving at: you're angling for a dedicated "Blapper" AT.  They're not Scrappers, because those have no ranged attacks.  They're not Blasters, because those have no defense powers (except for Tactical Arrow, which gets Gymnastics, a.k.a. "The Other Combat Jumping").  They're not Sentinels, because those have no melee attacks.  They're not Dominators, because those have "assault" as secondary to the "control" primary.  Now I get it.

 

+1 Instigators then.  I won't play one, because I'm not a fan of blapping.  But I can see how others might enjoy that!

 

(edit) But will they still retain any control powers?  If not, I'm afraid they're going to get crapped on harder than Sentinels do now.

(edit 2) Ok, I see where @Steampunkette mentions taunt for aggro management.  That's a sort of control.  But now we drive into the tanks vs. brutes conundrum... and I ain't touching that with a ten foot pole.

(edit 3) I wish my Sentinels had some kind of taunt/aggro management capabilities.  More often than not, I'm usually tanking/off-tanking with them anyway...

 

The Tanker/Brute thing is a big problem.

 

Right now, Brutes can have about as much overall durability as a Tanker but dish out -way- more damage. But knowing that's a thing, we can make sure the Instigator -can't- get quite as much durability as a Tanker. Maybe cap their Resistances at 75% and give them HP closer to a Scrapper so that even if they do get Softcap Defense the shots that do slip by are -REALLY DANGEROUS- to ensure they don't just hang out in melee and play like a Tanker or Brute.

 

It won't -fix- things for Tanker/Brute, but it doesn't need to make it worse!

[Rathulfr]

1 minute ago, Steampunkette said:

The Tanker/Brute thing is a big problem.

 

Right now, Brutes can have about as much overall durability as a Tanker but dish out -way- more damage. But knowing that's a thing, we can make sure the Instigator -can't- get quite as much durability as a Tanker. Maybe cap their Resistances at 75% and give them HP closer to a Scrapper so that even if they do get Softcap Defense the shots that do slip by are -REALLY DANGEROUS- to ensure they don't just hang out in melee and play like a Tanker or Brute.

 

It won't -fix- things for Tanker/Brute, but it doesn't need to make it worse!

 

Actually, it just means that Sentinels will keep getting crapped on by Blasters and Corruptors, while Instigators will get crapped on by Tankers and Brutes.

Everybody wins!  LOL  😏

[Nexys]

12 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

 

Okay, now I see what you're driving at: you're angling for a dedicated "Blapper" AT.  They're not Scrappers, because those have no ranged attacks.  They're not Blasters, because those have no defense powers (except for Tactical Arrow, which gets Gymnastics, a.k.a. "The Other Combat Jumping").  They're not Sentinels, because those have no melee attacks.  They're not Dominators, because those have "assault" as secondary to the "control" primary.  Now I get it.

 

+1 Instigators then.  I won't play one, because I'm not a fan of blapping.  But I can see how others might enjoy that!

 

(edit) But will they still retain any control powers?  If not, I'm afraid they're going to get crapped on harder than Sentinels do now.

(edit 2) Ok, I see where @Steampunkette mentions taunt for aggro management.  That's a sort of control.  But now we drive into the tanks vs. brutes conundrum... and I ain't touching that with a ten foot pole.

(edit 3) I wish my Sentinels had some kind of taunt/aggro management capabilities.  More often than not, I'm usually tanking/off-tanking with them anyway...

 

I can't see them having any control powers, just the "Assault" sets as primaries and "Defense" sets as secondaries.  So you could make an Energy Assult/Energy Aura character or Martial Assault/Ninjitsu character.  I just like the idea of being effective in both ranged and melee distances, even if you aren't AS effective as Scrappers or Blasters...sorta the "middle child" between the two.

[Chance Jackson]

Not the first time the idea has been shared but I approve all the same further more I approve of this combo "MORE" than creating a new AT with Assault/Defense sets that will have to go through "differentiation" of some kind which might mean shifting from damage to defense will require a new inherent, + new APP/PPP, new AT IOs that will bring with it all sorts of Balance considerations.

 

Keep it simple & port the sets is what I say.

 

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/7231-powersets-we-could-proliferate-to-sentinel/

Edited August 15, 2019 by Chance Jackson

[Sunsette]

After some time to think about it, I would be down for this. 

Edited August 15, 2019 by Sunsette

[ZeeHero]

I would suggest the name "Guardian" for an AT like that, although arguably it would make a good support AT name as well.

[Nexys]

7 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

I would suggest the name "Guardian" for an AT like that, although arguably it would make a good support AT name as well.

 

That would be a good name, especially given that there is already a Guardian AT icon (which, I think, was an AT in development when sunset hit).

Edited August 15, 2019 by Nexys

[Vanden]

What's going to happen if you give Assault sets to a DPS or tanking AT is you'll effectively have made another melee class. They'll need to use their melee attacks to fill their attack chain, so they'll be in melee all the time. Assault works for Dominators because they can fill their ranged chains with holds and such from their primary, and it might work for a Buff/Support class for similar reasons, but for a DPS class with a Defense Primary or Secondary? I don't see it being very different from the four melee classes we already have.

Edited August 16, 2019 by Vanden

[Steampunkette]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

What's going to happen if you give Assault sets to a DPS or tanking AT is you'll effectively have made another melee class. They'll need to use their melee attacks to fill their attack chain, so they'll be in melee all the time. Assault works for Dominators because they can fill their ranged chains with holds and such from their primary, and it might work for a Buff/Support class for similar reasons, but for a DPS class with a Defense Primary or Secondary? I don't see it being very different from the four melee classes we already have.

Which is why their defensive values need to be capped off somewhat lower. Less HP than a Brute, Less Resistance than a Brute or a Tanker. Give 'em Sentinel Style defense sets so they don't even get the benefit from target-count power saturation. They also won't have PBAoE Damage Toggles for aggro generation! (Okay, Dark Armor gets their PBAoE control toggles, still, but think of how squishy Dark Armor is in general!)

 

That way they can't -stay- in melee, taking every attack that enemies fire off, and -have- to move around to avoid getting overwhelmed.

 

Move in to make attacks from your chain, move out to make ranged attacks and limit incoming DPS, bouncy-bouncy fun fun fun! Generate as much aggro as possible to keep your squishie(r)s safe...

 

Meanwhile Scrappers, Brutes, and Tankers just stand stock still hitting things 'til they fall over. Moving during a fight only while grumbling about the Peacebringer's Knockback.

 

At max level, or with a team of buffers and healers, they might be able to play like Brutes and Tankers and anyone else who caps all their defensive abilities... but that's the same with EVERY Archetype so it's really not something to be too worried about.

 

At least: That's how -I'd- do it.