No love for /Poison

[AustinSmith]

I’m building a thematic toon who’s a Necromancy/Poison MM and I came to the forum for ideas, but I can’t find a single build for a toon with /Poison. Is the power set a heaping pile of garbage or something? For those who have played Poison, what is good and how would I slot?

 

It seems like the debuffs in the powerset are strong, so I’m not sure if I’m missing something.

[SmalltalkJava]

All told from my experience with poison.   Its Debuffs don’t seem that strong.   Defenders and corruptors seem to look down on it also, and their values are higher than ours.     Envenom and weaken are it’s two good powers and the AOE area is small on those.  You can get some stacking on them by targeting alternate mobs that are close to each other, but again the overall impact is small and the AOE area is small.   

 

The tier 9 ability doesn’t last that long and it has a long recharge. When I found that out by experience it was a big let down.  Poison, as a set, was pretty disappointing.  

 

I had a good concept for it.   Skunk Man was a tech Thugs/Poison.  The thugs were his friends from the neighborhood that helped him fight crime.  Stink, Stank And Crazy Eddie(the arsonist) were the first tier henchmen.   Stunk and Marv, the tier 2 henchmen.   Leon his oldest and best friend was the Bruiser.   Tier 9 /Poison was his musk scent that would spray on to his big bruiser Leon before he went rampage on the criminals.  Leon really hated it.   Envenom and Weaken and the other debuffs also represented his musk spray.  

 

Great concept but but poor performance. I’m now trying to find a good alternate secondary to act as his musk.   Suggestions appreciated!

 

But you may not mind the lack of performance.    Theme means a lot!     About the only thing I actually enjoyed was the piddly heal.  And that was just because of pass through targeting.  You could target the mobs and the heal would hit their target, which was the henchman they were attacking. 

 

Sorry this reply is such a bummer.  I just want to warn you, so you are prepared and know what to expect.   But try it out.  You may find it enjoyable.  Some people do.  

 

 

Ps.   I had hasten and the instant recharge skill from the super speed pool   That way I could use the t9  and also double gang war as often as possible.   And poison was still a let down.  

Edited August 15, 2019 by SmalltalkJava

[Justisaur]

I played my Necro/Poison on live, but I only played him to the teens I think.  It was much slower and harder than my other MMs, it could even be one of the worst characters I played.  For all that I enjoyed playing him.   It's better now as the powers have a half power (small) aoe, but really it's best for single tougher targets, and probably works better in teams that can get you to those harder targets.

 

/kin is also fun as you end up with rage zombies, and works fairly well in teams, much better combo with necro than poison, you could always color it green and call it poison.  I understand /dark works really well with necro, if you find /poison doesn't suit you, though I haven't tried that combo, you could also color /dark green.

[AustinSmith]

Thanks all for the input. This was gonna be a casual toon I’d play with a buddy of mine, so I wouldn’t expect to play him past the mid-20s honestly. Guess I’ll be forging my own path when it comes to slotting.

 

The character concept is SCP-049 (the Plague Doctor), which Necromancy/Poison is absolutely perfect for, with his reanimated corpses “cured” of the Great Pestilence, and using poisons as medicine. Can’t really powerset him any other way.

 

If homecoming devs actually end up with favorable ownership after talks with NCSoft, maybe /Poison could stand to be buffed/changed.

[Rathulfr]

I played a Water/Poison Corruptor named "Duff-Man", whose power effects were colored gold and white like beer.  I found Envenom and Weaken to be a bit underwhelming. 

 

But Alkaloid is a thematic treat, as its animation perfectly simulates the underhanded toss of a cold beer can.  I've got it macro'ed with witty comments, like "Oh YEAH!  Get DUFFED!"

 

[SmalltalkJava]

46 minutes ago, AustinSmith said:

Thanks all for the input. This was gonna be a casual toon I’d play with a buddy of mine, so I wouldn’t expect to play him past the mid-20s honestly. Guess I’ll be forging my own path when it comes to slotting.

 

The character concept is SCP-049 (the Plague Doctor), which Necromancy/Poison is absolutely perfect for, with his reanimated corpses “cured” of the Great Pestilence, and using poisons as medicine. Can’t really powerset him any other way.

 

If homecoming devs actually end up with favorable ownership after talks with NCSoft, maybe /Poison could stand to be buffed/changed.

Poison would work well for a 20’s casual toon.   You can always put some procs in the poison skills that accept them.  

[TheGentlemanGhostronaut]

Dammit, I was really hoping that Poison would be okay!  Fits perfectly with a character idea I have.  Is there ANY way to make it decent?

[MrAxe]

On 8/15/2019 at 7:25 PM, Justisaur said:

I played my Necro/Poison on live, but I only played him to the teens I think.  It was much slower and harder than my other MMs, it could even be one of the worst characters I played.  For all that I enjoyed playing him.   It's better now as the powers have a half power (small) aoe, but really it's best for single tougher targets, and probably works better in teams that can get you to those harder targets.

 

/kin is also fun as you end up with rage zombies, and works fairly well in teams, much better combo with necro than poison, you could always color it green and call it poison.  I understand /dark works really well with necro, if you find /poison doesn't suit you, though I haven't tried that combo, you could also color /dark green.

 

I played my Necro/Poison to 50 on live and I was in denial about how sick I was of it underperforming. I wonder how crazy the single target heal in combination with the trash zombies drove you. I shudder thinking about it now.

[otyugh]

I too had a fun concept for a necro/poison MM which was a mummy. You know like those poison traps in pharaoh's tombs? I colored the darkness powers sandy brown so it looked like his pets were rising up from the sands of ancient Egypt. Cool concept but poison is just so weak. Those tiny AOEs were just no fun.

[Coyote]

Poison is a strong set. And Poison is a weak set.

What you have to realize is that Poison is mostly a HIGH DAMAGE set, with LOW DEFENSE. If you put procs in Paralytic Poison, it becomes a good single-target attack. If you put procs in Poison Trap, it becomes an awesome light nuke. With two sources of -Res, you can both deal damage directly, and also buff the damage done, by a lot.

 

Now, defensively, the powers are generally weak statistically and bad in other ways (animation time, recharge, AoE). The only place where they are actually strong is because -Res boosts your -Damage debuffing, thus you can throw a lot of -Res at a target, then hit it with -Damage, and that -Damage is amplified. But you're generally not going to get much value out of that except against Bosses and up.

 

This leaves it as a decent set, but ONLY in limited situations, which IMO are:

1) when fighting small groups of enemies. So raise the difficulty level but NOT the size of the team. You can fight bosses pretty well with stacking debuffs on them, but if fighting lots of minions, those small AoEs for your defensive powers hurt a lot.

2) when paired with a strong defensive set. To me, this screams Controller, because if you pair Poison with Earth, Dark, or Plant Control, then you have a lot of damage mitigation and can afford to use a damage-oriented secondary. But on a MM where you're trying to keep pets alive... maybe use it with a Primary that is strong defensively. Try Robots, or Nature with high Recharge slotting that tries for a perma-Fortify Pack build. Maybe Necro/Poison, again with low spawn sizes, because then you end up getting the -ToHit debuffs from the undead stacking onto just a few targets. Single-target Glooms don't help much against 10-mob spawns, but do help a lot against spawns with just a Boss and 1 or 2 other mobs.

 

In the end, you  can do well with Poison, but NOT like a true generalist character who can fight lots of mobs, or few tough mobs... fighting lots of mobs as a MM can get hectic anyhow, doing it with a secondary that really doesn't protect well against large spawn sizes is very iffy.

 

I would seriously consider going Necro/Poison, using Zombies as a slot mule for all of the defensive IOs and only summoning them as a speed bump on occasion. Slot up the personal attacks since you actually get 3 of them so you have a good attack cycle with Paralytic Poison added (use damage Procs to bypass the low base MM damage). Generally run just the Knights and Lich so you have fewer targets to heal with your single-target heal. Keep the Lich by you in Bodyguard, and send the Knights up front... it concentrates the damage, but also concentrates mobs together and gives you only two targets to heal. And keep the difficulty high but the spawn size small, this way you get all of the debuffs onto just a few targets and they become noticeable. Put Achilles Heel in the Knights, this also works better with fewer targets of higher-difficulty. With all this, it should play quite well against higher level but smaller spawns. On teams, this build's lack of AoE may not matter that much since there is usually a lot of AoE damage, so you can focus on sending the Knights at the bosses and debuffing the bosses/AVs. So it should also be acceptable on teams. Not a great overall build, but I think you can squeeze some lemonade as long as you realize what the set's strengths are.

[SmalltalkJava]

Been working on my Poison MM a bit.      Proc'd out Poison Trap is nice.   But the to hit rolls seem really off.   I rolled a lot of 95+ rolls.   It seems like the 5% comes up a lot more than 5% of the time. 10 out of 55 dice throws were over 95%.   

 

1. Poison Trap: HIT Harlequin Fencer! Your Self Destruct power is autohit.
2. Poison Trap: HIT Iron Strongman! Your Poison Trap power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 53.57.
3. Poison Trap: HIT Attendant! Your Poison Trap power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 88.97.
4. Poison Trap: HIT Attendant! Your Poison Trap power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 68.34.
5. Poison Trap: HIT Harlequin Juggler! Your Poison Trap power was forced to hit by streakbreaker.
6. Poison Trap: HIT Attendant! Your Poison Gas power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 56.56.
7. Poison Trap: HIT Iron Strongman! Your Poison Gas power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 18.20.
8. Poison Trap: HIT Harlequin Fencer! Your Poison Trap power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 33.99.
9. Poison Trap: HIT Harlequin Fencer! Your Poison Trap power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 10.58.
10. Poison Trap: HIT Iron Strongman! Your Poison Gas power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 0.18.
11. Poison Trap: HIT Iron Strongman! Your Poison Gas power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 25.68.
12. Poison Trap: HIT Harlequin Fencer! Your Poison Gas power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 70.78.
13. Poison Trap: HIT Harlequin Juggler! Your Poison Gas power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 33.46.
14. Poison Trap: You hit Harlequin Juggler for 95.56 points of bonus Lethal damage!
15. Poison Trap: Harlequin Juggler takes 63.7 points of bonus psionic damage!
16. Poison Trap: You blast Harlequin Juggler for 118.86 points of bonus fire damage!
17. Poison Trap: You blast Iron Strongman for 118.86 points of bonus fire damage!
18. Poison Trap: Your target takes 95.09 points of bonus smashing damage!
19. Poison Trap: Harlequin Fencer takes 63.7 points of bonus psionic damage!
20. Poison Trap: Attendant takes 63.7 points of bonus psionic damage!
21. Poison Trap: Your target takes 118.86 points of bonus smashing damage!
22. Poison Trap: Attendant takes 63.7 points of bonus psionic damage!
23. Poison Trap: Your target takes 118.86 points of bonus smashing damage!
24. Poison Trap: Attendant takes 63.7 points of bonus psionic damage!
25. Poison Trap: You blast Harlequin Fencer for 118.86 points of bonus fire damage!
26. Poison Trap: Your target takes 118.86 points of bonus smashing damage!
27. Poison Trap: Harlequin Fencer takes 63.7 points of bonus psionic damage!
28. Poison Trap: Your target takes 118.86 points of bonus smashing damage!
29. Poison Trap: You blast Iron Strongman for 118.86 points of bonus fire damage!
30. Poison Trap: You hit Iron Strongman for 95.56 points of bonus Lethal damage!
31. Poison Trap: You blast Iron Strongman for 118.86 points of bonus fire damage!
32. Poison Trap: You hit Iron Strongman for 95.56 points of bonus Lethal damage!
33. Poison Trap: MISSED Iron Strongman!! Your Poison Trap power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 97.32.
34. Poison Trap: MISSED Attendant!! Your Poison Trap power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 98.17.
35. Poison Trap: MISSED Iron Strongman!! Your Poison Trap power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 95.56.
36. Poison Trap: Your Poison Trap holds Iron Strongman!
37. Poison Trap: Your Poison Trap holds Attendant!
38. Poison Trap: MISSED Attendant!! Your Poison Trap power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 96.46.
39. Poison Trap: MISSED Harlequin Juggler!! Your Poison Trap power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 97.75.
40. Poison Trap: You knock down Iron Strongman with Overwhelming Force!
41. Poison Trap: Iron Strongman takes 63.7 points of bonus psionic damage!
42. Poison Trap: Your target takes 95.09 points of bonus smashing damage!
43. Poison Trap: You hit Attendant for 95.56 points of bonus Lethal damage!
44. Poison Trap: Your target takes 95.09 points of bonus smashing damage!
45. Poison Trap: Your Poison Trap holds Iron Strongman!
46. Poison Trap: MISSED Iron Strongman!! Your Poison Trap power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 95.76.
47. Poison Trap: Your Poison Trap holds Iron Strongman!
48. Poison Trap: MISSED Iron Strongman!! Your Poison Trap power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 97.39.
49. Poison Trap: You hit Attendant for 95.56 points of bonus Lethal damage!
50. Poison Trap: You knock down Attendant with Overwhelming Force!
51. Poison Trap: You blast Attendant for 118.86 points of bonus fire damage!
52. Poison Trap: Your target takes 118.86 points of bonus smashing damage!
53. Poison Trap: MISSED Iron Strongman!! Your Poison Trap power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 97.38.
54. Poison Trap: MISSED Attendant!! Your Poison Trap power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 95.52.
55. Poison Trap: MISSED Attendant!! Your Poison Trap power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 95.00.

Edited September 18, 2019 by SmalltalkJava

[Frosticus]

I personally wouldnt go poison on a MM and I'm actively promoting that people give poison some love and see how effective is can be as the game currently plays.

 

2 reasons:

1 - it isnt particularly good at keeping others alive. Others will include your pets. It's fine for yourself as you have IOs and insp. Less so for your pets

2 - Everything the set does good to well  is brought together and elevated by venomous gas. But MMs dont have that. And while noxious gas is a very strong power the uptime is unfortunately pretty low. 

[Lazarillo]

On 8/30/2019 at 1:50 PM, Frosticus said:

And while noxious gas is a very strong power the uptime is unfortunately pretty low. 

What is the uptime on Noxious Gas, anyway?  There aren't any numbers for it at all.

[William Valence]

3 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

What is the uptime on Noxious Gas, anyway?  There aren't any numbers for it at all.

I believe it's 45s duration with a 5min recharge.

[SmalltalkJava]

15 hours ago, William Valence said:

I believe it's 45s duration with a 5min recharge.

That sounds about right.  

 

As to poison. I have my thugs poison.   It’s not my cup of tea.  But for a proc oriented build poison trap is nice.   Big boom!   It works well with heat mastery Bonfire bouncing also

 

i also suggest a player get. The insta recharge ability from the super speed pool.  I think it’s called Burnout but I’m not sure.    It allows you to insta make Noxious Gas ability available again.     It’s also nice for The thugs Gang War. 

 

 

Im with @Frosticus  it works great for controllers.    Lock the mobs down and boom them with poison trap.  

Edited September 18, 2019 by SmalltalkJava

[Frosticus]

Sounds about right. Maybe even shorter duration? I can't recall as I havent played a poison mm since the good old days.

 

I remember it scales based on which tier pet you put it on though which is why the bruiser is a good pairing. 

[William Valence]

5 hours ago, Frosticus said:

I remember it scales based on which tier pet you put it on though which is why the bruiser is a good pairing. 

Kinda/sorta yeah

 

It gives the same power to whatever henchmen you use it on, however bosses have a 1.25 modifier for their debuff strengths, Lts. have a 1 modifier, and Minions have a .75 modifier, and since it grants a power, it uses their stats.

 

 

[AgentForest]

I have a Poison/Sonic Blast Defender named Plaguebat, and he's actually really strong.  Not just on damage output, but in terms of how much he can help a team melt down bosses and AVs.  He often hovers into the fray just to keep his Venomous Gas on everything and place his Poison Traps.  Enemy stats become near worthless, sort of like when you have a Trick Arrows or Radiation Emissions teammate.  It feels like some halfway point between those two sets.  But Venomous Gas is the key there.  If Envenom and Weaken are your bread and butter moves, Venomous Gas is the main course.

The Mastermind version Noxious Gas is just... awful.  Relatively speaking.  It's a similar effect, but instead of being centered on you, the last person who wants to wade into the thick of a fight, it's centered on a pet.  Sounds great, right?  Unfortunately it's temporary and has a long cooldown.  Why?  No clue.  It's not like Poison was too strong a power set to let Masterminds use the default version or anything, lol.  But unfortunately, for a set so heavily focused on debuffing instead of healing/buffing (which are hard enough to play on Masterminds as it is), Poison just doesn't really have the tools to feel like it works at all on the Mastermind class.

I really hope the Homecoming devs look into this and try to address it.  I wouldn't mind Noxious Gas having a long cooldown if, like Enchant Undead, it just gave your pets a permanent (but smaller) Venomous Gas aura of their own until they died.  Make you reapply it if you summon new ones.  Problem solved.  They could make the AoE smaller, lower the stat debuff and make them stack, or any number of things to try to balance it, but it really should be a persistent effect like it is for other classes.

[Windchime]

Poison is a great set, but it has some limitations which may be off putting to many.

 

You can stack Envenom on one target by hitting it directly then hitting it with splash damage from another target.  This makes for a very strong resist de-buff.

 

I had a Thugs/Poison and a Necro/Poison on live that both melted things.  The Necro suffered a bit as the pets are inherently squishy and poison's mitigation takes some finesse. 

 

In the fast paced end game your MM might feel a bit lackluster, but that can be attributed more to being a MM.  My HC Poison/Fire defender absolutely wrecks face.