Pylon Damage Thread

[Sovera]

57 minutes ago, SomeGuy said:

 

lol Yeah, the Brute definitely uses Gloom in the rotation. It's actually a very similar rotation to a SS/FA/Gloom Brute.

 

TF-ET-Burn-Gloom

 

Gloom doesn't get used every rotation. If Build Up gets used then Gloom is the attack not used in the rotation. I want to get back to using those big three ASAP. I haven't ran a Bone Smasher run, but I don't imagine it being to much slower. *edit* I just did a run with Bonesmasher instead of Gloom. The time was the same. So, I'm sure with averages it would be higher, but I'm not that concerned with it.

 

Why the curiosity of a run without Evolving Armor?

 

You're getting consistent 30 seconds better than I was so I want to dissect it and look for improvements. Thanks for the build, bro o/

 

Yeah I see it now, that -res in Burn is probably what's skewing it even when not using Gloom. Did you consider the Superior Unrelenting Fury in Whirlwind Hands? You'll lose 5% recharge but get better raw stats and more S/L resistance/defense.

 

 

As for the Evolving Armor it's what gives the -res effect and since it's a perma effect that doesn't rely on procs I'd like to compare the numbers since I'm a big believer in testing instead of mathing it out.

 

I -could- build it and run it, but since you already got it all set up it would save some time.

Edited October 13, 2021 by Sovera

[SomeGuy]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

 

-RES stuff

 

 

Ohhhhh. Lol, Also, that swap to SUR in Whirling Hands is a pretty solid idea. If Oblit wasnt such a great set, it would be a no brainer. Doesn't mean I'm really not considering. My OCD is bugging me about dropping under 170 recharge though. I will absolutely see about making it work. *edit* I think I'll make that swap. It's a .06 recharge difference with TF.

 

Just did a single run with EA off. I had a LOT of RNG in my favor. ET crits almost killed me. 95s run.

Edited October 13, 2021 by SomeGuy

[arcane]

I've never ever done a pylon test but reading this thread is admittedly making me curious how bad my builds are. 

 

If I understand everything correctly, I shall go try to kill a pylon, time it, and state what incarnates/insps/temps I used 🙂

 

Also having trouble finding any links to any spreadsheet mentioned in this thread.

Edited October 23, 2021 by arcane

[Bill Z Bubba]

49 minutes ago, arcane said:

I've never ever done a pylon test but reading this thread is admittedly making me curious how bad my builds are. 

 

If I understand everything correctly, I shall go try to kill a pylon, time it, and state what incarnates/insps/temps I used 🙂

 

Also having trouble finding any links to any spreadsheet mentioned in this thread.

 

You won't learn how bad your builds are. You'll only learn where your single target damage sits. If you have amazing aoe, this test won't show it. If you have amazing mitigation, this test won't show it. HOWEVER, if you want to get a general idea for how long it will take you to fight other hard targets like AVs, GMs, etc... then it's a fantastic test.

[SomeGuy]

2 hours ago, arcane said:

I've never ever done a pylon test but reading this thread is admittedly making me curious how bad my builds are. 

 

If I understand everything correctly, I shall go try to kill a pylon, time it, and state what incarnates/insps/temps I used 🙂

 

Also having trouble finding any links to any spreadsheet mentioned in this thread.

 

What @Bill Z Bubba said. With that said, getting good at dropping a pylon absolutely does make you more efficient at the game in general. Everyone builds for their playstyle/goals. I just know that I personally only do pylon runs with the build as solo-unbuffed as possible. It is neat seeing how much an effect buffs and temps can affect a run after you've collected pure-build times. My ice/cold corruptor? Goes from almost 2 minutes to less than 40s if I go at it with Lore. Stuff like that. That character absolutely is a team multiplier of destruction. Whereas Dark Melee REALLY needs some love to get it in line with the other melee sets. It absolutely does not do ST DPS as well as most of the other sets, and you need a full 10x Soul Drain to reach those numbers. And we know how "great" it is at AOE. I was wondering if just doubling the amount of +DMG each mob gives for the first five, then just keeping the last 5 give the original amount. And make Soul Drain an autohit, or a guaranteed buff for at least 1x stack. Cause wowwwww when it misses on one mob it really hurts. But you have to get 150% more damage with DM to get to the same numbers as the other sets. @Kachooman put together a spreadsheet with all the times he collected. It's pretty useful info.  I think the link is in his signature of his posts? Not sure. I know I copied it, and I'm just using it slightly edited for myself now (the notes section of it, really).

Edited October 23, 2021 by SomeGuy

[arcane]

1:48 Ill/Dark/Mace Controller

 

No Insps/No Temps/No Lore, T4 Alpha, T3 the rest

Edited October 23, 2021 by arcane

[arcane]

ugh..

 

5:02 Poison/Ice/Psychic Defender

 

No Insps/No Temps/No Lore/No Hybrid, T3 Alpha/Destiny, T4 Interface/Judgement

 

No issues just slow

Edited October 24, 2021 by arcane

[arcane]

5:14 WP/Kat/Soul Tanker

 

Basically no hybrid if assault, don't care if melee

 

Had one toggle drop from end but otherwise just slow

Edited October 24, 2021 by arcane

[arcane]

4:17 Rad/Rad/Flame Defender having endurance problems and apparently not with enough knockback protection 😞

 

Considering how much I was knocked back or started not running all my toggles, definite potential for improvement.

Edited October 24, 2021 by arcane

[arcane]

The Ill/Dark/Mace is the only toon I have that is actually built with single hard targets as the top priority... it shows.

 

and then some more...

 

Poison/Dark/Psy Def - 4:51 - definitely a lot of ways this build could be more single target friendly atm

TA/Beam/Mu Def - 4:26

Bots/Cold/Mako MM - 2:23

Traps/AR/Electric Def - 4:19 - ok this must be a testament to a good primary because the AR contribution here is a joke

Edited October 24, 2021 by arcane

[Pzn]

2 hours ago, arcane said:

ugh..

 

5:02 Poison/Ice/Psychic Defender

 

No Insps/No Temps/No Lore/No Hybrid, T3 Alpha/Destiny, T4 Interface/Judgement

 

No issues just slow

I don't think that's slow.  I've had trouble getting low times with my defender builds.  The pylon spreadsheet doesn't show many quick times either outside of storm builds.

 

2 hours ago, arcane said:

5:14 WP/Kat/Soul Tanker

 

Basically no hybrid if assault, don't care if melee

 

Had one toggle drop from end but otherwise just slow

I'd be interested in what your chain was for this and how you have the attacks slotted.  If you get enough recharge you can manage Gloom>Soaring Dragon>Golden Dragonfly with the use of FF procs in both katana attacks.  You can drop the slotted recharge in those attacks to maximize uptime on achilles/fury procs and then load them up with damage procs as well.  It would require some sacrifices of set bonuses but you can get around a 250 DPS attack chain that pylon tests at around 350 DPS due to -res procs.

 

[SomeGuy]

5 hours ago, arcane said:

The Ill/Dark/Mace is the only toon I have that is actually built with single hard targets as the top priority... it shows.

 

and then some more...

 

Poison/Dark/Psy Def - 4:51 - definitely a lot of ways this build could be more single target friendly atm

TA/Beam/Mu Def - 4:26

Bots/Cold/Mako MM - 2:23

Traps/AR/Electric Def - 4:19 - ok this must be a testament to a good primary because the AR contribution here is a joke

 

 

That tanker time is actually really good. I honestly can't build a tanker cause well, they are freaking tanks. They aren't meant to be DPS juggernauts to me. Just, unkillable. So every time I go to start building one I start DPSing it, and it just doesn't feel right. I kind of lump tankers in to a role they are EXCEPTIONAL at, and I'm just not wired that way. So, hats off.

 

The ill/dark/mace time makes me fist bump the air. But I totally get the frustration you talked about with the pois/ice/psy defender. I'd say that's still a pretty good time considering the AT and the combo. Granted, poison is a really good debuffer and ice is definitely no slouch for single or AOE. The bots/cold mm time is really interesting. I have wondered how low a thugs/cold MM with burnout could go.

[arcane]

Appreciate the feedback 🙂 My disappointment with some times in the moment was because, reading through this thread, you get the impression anything over 4 minutes is a slouch.

 

The katana tank is using Cross Punch, Vigor Core, and 3-5 procs per power. Would've been a cleaner ~5:00 flat if I paid attention to Ageless (Radial for the DDR but still got that +end).

 

The poisons were just disappointing because good -res + good -regen seemed like it was the formula for success. Could see rebuilding a variant of the Poison/Dark in the future to do a little better here though. The stronger -regen from rad primary and better procs from rad secondary were going noticeably more effective on the Rad/Rad/Flame, but that test was riddled with end problems (made Clarion work on this one in general play but apparently not here) and knockback. Both poisons weirdly have acrobatics because it's one of those sets where I need slots more than I need power picks, so that was good to have.

 

Bots/Cold was arguably the most eye opening experience because, although it was the 2nd place time - it was another where the character didn't have enough kb protection (I routinely build for 6-9 points of protection so this whole experience was a shocker for me.... I tried to break out a Dark/ tank at one point and it was embarrassing). Anyway, the fact that the pylon was getting shredded while I was mostly on my ass was pretty dang impressive.

 

Note the first draft of my Ill/Dark was able to solo 54 AV's, but it took like >30 minutes and was awful. I rebuilt it to add Enflame, Poisonous Ray, and Toxic Tarantula and was suddenly able to take a variety of 54 AV's in <5 min. So that's what we're working with here. Only time I've tried to optimize a build for hard targets.

 

It would also help clarify these results if I had a little more consistency on Incarnates going in. Ageless was clearly good to have here even when it wasn't necessary for general play. If more characters had Pyronic I might have used judgement. I was trying not to skew things with Assault Hybrid so didn't use that, but characters that had Melee or Support Hybrid were free to benefit from that. Etc.

Edited October 24, 2021 by arcane

[Bill Z Bubba]

Not what I expected. Claws/SR Scrapper and Brute. 5 runs each with Assault Core and Radial. Core absolutely helps the scrapper but it seems a complete wash on the brute. Assault clicked with time starting. Pyronic core thrown in when up. Hasten on auto and practiced brawler clicked manually after allowing hasten to fire off. I'll do the same test with my sd/nrg tank later.

 

Scrap Core
2:35
2:44
2:35
3:07
2:54
Avg: 2:47
Throw out best and worst: 2:44

 

Scrap Radial
2:46
3:03
3:39
3:21
3:07
Avg: 3:11
Throw out best and worst: 3:10

 

Brute Core
4:20
4:34
4:35
4:44
4:39
Avg: 4:34
Throw out best and worst: 4:36

 

Brute Radial
4:11
4:54
4:30
4:45
4:27
Avg: 4:33
Throw out best and worst: 4:34

[Sovera]

It also depends on how many different types of -res you can fit in the build. I'm vocal about -res only being useful for pylon tests, but most of the 'best' times were people cramming a lot of -res effects on top of -res IOs.

 

Not sure if you placed any of those in the Katana test for example, but it can fit two of them.

 

Replacing two different -res IOs added one minute to my Tanker tests, so as you can see... But they also made no noticeable difference in tested map clearing and very small difference in AV testing. Still noticeable and it counts for every person in the team. But since they don't stack all it takes is one person having them.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Here's the sd/nrg tank numbers.

 

Tank Core
2:46
2:48
2:50
2:59
2:48
Avg: 2:50
Throw out best and worst: 2:48

Tank Radial
3:34
3:31
3:01
3:10
3:27
Avg: 3:21
Throw out best and worst: 3:22

 

Going to have to run 10 more with the claws/sr tank to see if it gets the same spread. And then a nrg melee brute. And my fire/bio sent. Probably the claws/bio scrap as well. Later. Need a break.

[arcane]

4 hours ago, Sovera said:

It also depends on how many different types of -res you can fit in the build. I'm vocal about -res only being useful for pylon tests, but most of the 'best' times were people cramming a lot of -res effects on top of -res IOs.

 

Not sure if you placed any of those in the Katana test for example, but it can fit two of them.

 

Replacing two different -res IOs added one minute to my Tanker tests, so as you can see... But they also made no noticeable difference in tested map clearing and very small difference in AV testing. Still noticeable and it counts for every person in the team. But since they don't stack all it takes is one person having them.

-res procs already accounted for unfortunately. FotG in Golden Dragonfly and Achilles Heel in Soaring Dragon.

 

Also note I am very new to trying to actually think about attack chains... most of my characters, while attacking all the time, are hitting buttons with some degree of randomness. Sure I'm going to do things like prioritize Freeze Ray or Bitter Ice Blast over Bitter Freeze Ray, but, in general, the WP/Kat/Soul is the only one tested so far that has a complete chain with no variation necessary. Most things have a partial chain, say maybe 3 consistent attacks but with some awkward gap to fill. 

 

EDITS:

A few more tests:

 

WP/Kat/Soul w/ T3 Assault Radial, T3 Reactive, T3 Vorpal RP

Run 1 - 4:31 (my toggles dropped again right before my next Ageless before 4:00)

Run 2 - 4:05 (detoggled super speed at the start, detoggled maneuvers a couple minutes in)

Run 3 - 4:01 (kept maneuvers also detoggled from the start now)

Run 4 - 4:08

 

Some other improvements

- When FF procs are firing a lot, sometimes can chain Gloom->Soaring Dragon->Golden Dragonfly without Cross Punch. Trying to be aware of recharges enough to do that when possible.

- When doing the 4 attack chain, tried rotating in Dark Obliteration when up instead of Cross Punch for the extra -res proc. Its DPA is not bad with 4 damage procs either.

- Also tried to be more aware of Build Up being available. In normal play I typically just use Build Up type moves when running into the next mob or firing up a nuke, not used to being incentivized to use it as much as possible.

 

Poison/Ice/Psy w/ T4 Assault Radial, T4 Degen Core, T4 Pyronic Core

Run 1 - 2:37 (!)

Run 2 - 2:34

 

DB/Rad/Soul Scrapper w/ T4 Assault Core, T3 Reactive, T3 Void

Run 1 - 2:19

Run 2 - 2:38

Run 3 - 2:32

 

The times look so much better when you do run Hybrid Assault, don't they 🙂 Holy crap at the improvement to Poison/Ice vs without Assault.

Edited October 24, 2021 by arcane

[Sovera]

8 minutes ago, arcane said:

-res procs already accounted for unfortunately. FotG in Golden Dragonfly and Achilles Heel in Soaring Dragon.

 

Also note I am very new to trying to actually think about attack chains... most of my characters, while attacking all the time, are hitting buttons with some degree of randomness. Sure I'm going to do things like prioritize Freeze Ray or Bitter Ice Blast over Bitter Freeze Ray, but, in general, the WP/Kat/Soul is the only one tested so far that has a complete chain with no variation necessary. Most things have a partial chain, say maybe 3 consistent attacks but with some awkward gap to fill. 

 

Yeah. Willpower is great to survive passively but it's not going to add more power to a build. Bio is the go to, Fire for something a bit out of the box. We can say something like Tankers have great survival out of the box so they don't need to be tailored towards it more. That's my Fire Armor approach. But not everyone agrees or even has to. Playing the invincible meat shield has its appeal too.

[arcane]

Well once the big tanker buffs and the BillZBubba tanker v. brute rants struck, I eventually got addicted and wanted a tanker of every primary, so the "not going to add more power to a build" bit was going to happen to someone.

Edited October 24, 2021 by arcane

[SomeGuy]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

Well once the big tanker buffs and the BillZBubba tanker v. brute rants struck, I eventually got addicted and wanted a tanker of every primary, so the "not going to add more power to a build" bit was going to happen to someone.

 

 

My thing is, tankers hit the survival numbers I'd like and go WELL BEYOND so easy, that it's hard for me not to want to start emphasizing DPS.  I see SD tankers easily hitting 65% DEF to melee/ranged/aoe, getting really good res, and good hp and hp/s.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Couple more runs. I will be respecing the sr/claws tank. That's just horrible.

 

Claws/SR Tank Core
5:19
5:49
5:50
5:48
5:40
Avg: 5:41
Throw out best and worst: 5:46

 

Claws/SR Tank Radial
6:55
6:33
5:43
6:05
5:40
Avg: 6:11
Throw out best and worst: 6:07

 

Fire/Bio Sent Core
3:34
3:59
3:39
3:14
3:25
Avg: 3:34
Throw out best and worst: 3:33

 

Fire/Bio Sent Radial
3:50
3:53
4:02
3:34
3:44
Avg: 3:49
Throw out best and worst: 3:49

Edited October 25, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Bill Z Bubba]

I guess I should note that so far all pylon tests are also done with T4 Alpha Musc Core and T4 Inter Degen Core.

[Kachooman]

Oh more times for me to add will jump on that tomorrow.

[Pzn]

On 10/24/2021 at 10:43 AM, arcane said:

it was another where the character didn't have enough kb protection (I routinely build for 6-9 points of protection so this whole experience was a shocker for me....

I normally only go for 8 points of protection too unless it's a tank.  I use the base buff for 10 more points of protection so KB won't ruin my times

Edited October 25, 2021 by Pzn

[Kachooman]

On 10/25/2021 at 4:04 AM, arcane said:

-res procs already accounted for unfortunately. FotG in Golden Dragonfly and Achilles Heel in Soaring Dragon.

 

Also note I am very new to trying to actually think about attack chains... most of my characters, while attacking all the time, are hitting buttons with some degree of randomness. Sure I'm going to do things like prioritize Freeze Ray or Bitter Ice Blast over Bitter Freeze Ray, but, in general, the WP/Kat/Soul is the only one tested so far that has a complete chain with no variation necessary. Most things have a partial chain, say maybe 3 consistent attacks but with some awkward gap to fill. 

 

EDITS:

A few more tests:

 

WP/Kat/Soul w/ T3 Assault Radial, T3 Reactive, T3 Vorpal RP

Run 1 - 4:31 (my toggles dropped again right before my next Ageless before 4:00)

Run 2 - 4:05 (detoggled super speed at the start, detoggled maneuvers a couple minutes in)

Run 3 - 4:01 (kept maneuvers also detoggled from the start now)

Run 4 - 4:08

 

Some other improvements

- When FF procs are firing a lot, sometimes can chain Gloom->Soaring Dragon->Golden Dragonfly without Cross Punch. Trying to be aware of recharges enough to do that when possible.

- When doing the 4 attack chain, tried rotating in Dark Obliteration when up instead of Cross Punch for the extra -res proc. Its DPA is not bad with 4 damage procs either.

- Also tried to be more aware of Build Up being available. In normal play I typically just use Build Up type moves when running into the next mob or firing up a nuke, not used to being incentivized to use it as much as possible.

 

Poison/Ice/Psy w/ T4 Assault Radial, T4 Degen Core, T4 Pyronic Core

Run 1 - 2:37 (!)

Run 2 - 2:34

 

DB/Rad/Soul Scrapper w/ T4 Assault Core, T3 Reactive, T3 Void

Run 1 - 2:19

Run 2 - 2:38

Run 3 - 2:32

 

The times look so much better when you do run Hybrid Assault, don't they 🙂 Holy crap at the improvement to Poison/Ice vs without Assault.

What are all the Archetypes used here @arcane?

 

All others are entered, sheet is once again up to date.

Edited October 26, 2021 by Kachooman