Add a new inherent toggle power for changing KB/KD

[kelly Rocket]

2 hours ago, Rylas said:

Nope. Why on earth should you be allowed to determine how someone plays?

 

2 hours ago, Redlynne said:

NO.

 

Team Leader modifiers that interfere with the way that other PC's characters FUNCTION should be avoided at all costs.  That's imposing "play MY way!" onto everyone in a Team that's a bridge too far.

Because you're the Team Leader. It's your team, your rules. This is *already* the case, it just changes the way it works from the team leader kicking you off their team to them being able to turn on that toggle and then you decide whether you want to stay or not.

[PaxArcana]

"Team Leader" and "Dictator" should not be treated as synonyms.

[William Valence]

To what extent do we get to control the effects of powers we don't like? Should we, or a member of our team be able to remove afraid/avoid magnitudes? Should the team leader be able to give the enemy TP protection because they don't like pulling with TP foe, or Wormhole? Should they be able to turn off intangible powers, and prevent players from being able to use them?

 

To what extent does the team leader have control over me, and where do you say their control goes too far?

 

[MunkiLord]

16 minutes ago, kelly Rocket said:

Leaving the team is your prerogative. Team Leader gets to decide whether he wants those sorts of powers on his team. Also Force Bolt works fine when converted to knockdown. I have a Toon that uses it with Sudden Acceleration just to spam it for chain knockdown. Knockdown is just as good as knockback for mitigation, as long as you have enough recharge to just dribble the target.

And the team leader currently has the tools to do that, including private messages, team chat, invite, and kick.

[HeroReborn]

11 hours ago, Lumicat said:

I would love to see a switch or even just make the KB to KD IO not unique so at least the player has the option. Of all the characters I play, the ones with lots of knockbacks are extra stressful to play as it is usually not well liked by players and it seems unnecessary.  At least give us options.

@Lumicat

 

Just in case you are unaware, there is 2 knockback to knockdown IO's, the unique in Overwhelming force (in Universal damage) and a non-unique one Sudden Acceleration (in knockback sets) which can be used in as many powers that accept knockback enhancements.

[justicebeliever]

7 hours ago, kelly Rocket said:

Leaving the team is your prerogative. Team Leader gets to decide whether he wants those sorts of powers on his team. Also Force Bolt works fine when converted to knockdown. I have a Toon that uses it with Sudden Acceleration just to spam it for chain knockdown. Knockdown is just as good as knockback for mitigation, as long as you have enough recharge to just dribble the target.

Team Leader does not get to decide how any other players play or powers work.  It is not now, and has not ever been a function of the game.  Changing this design would violate the spirit of the game by restricting player choices, which is not something HC is at all about...

 

If Team Leader really hates Knockback, then they can kick or not invite any player with it...I think that's short sighted and possibly quite rude, but I support your right. as team leader, to manage the team composition how you see fit...

[justicebeliever]

@Rylas - this most recent turn in the thread is what I think is illustrative of how such a toggle would be managed to restrict choices.

 

If such a toggle where created (I'm talking about the Inherent toggle you suggested, not the insanity that is a team leader toggle), there would be many team leaders who would insist you toggle off your powers to be a part of the team.  Suddenly my play choices become restricted...I have either fewer teaming options, or I can't use the KB powers that I personally love so much...

 

If I really hated KB, in the Live days, you only option would be to not use KB powers...In HC, we have more choices, skip the power or use a slot on any KB power that matters to you.  It's not a "tax", it's a choice...As was mentioned there are very few KB heavy sets, and they can be avoided...

 

I appreciate the view point you've espoused this whole thread, and I think you've been, as always, highly respectful, thoughtful, and courteous in your approach here...I know your motivation is improve your own gaming experience without hurting anyone else's, and in fact to provide more choices...but this approach will hurt others gaming, and provide them with less choices....

[Nayeh]

This thread is silly.

 

Knockback has practical use in terms of both displacement and an airborne stun-CC. There are plenty of Controllers and Dominators out there that are happy to drop Immobilize on a group that anchors the enemies to the ground and completely prevents displacement. Rarely have I encountered situations where Knockback did not work in a team's favor. If you want content where monsters are conveniently grouped together and don't roam I suggest sticking to AE in the bumper lane.

[boggo2300]

7 hours ago, kelly Rocket said:

 

Because you're the Team Leader. It's your team, your rules. This is *already* the case, it just changes the way it works from the team leader kicking you off their team to them being able to turn on that toggle and then you decide whether you want to stay or not.

thats not being a team leader, thats being an ass

[quixoteprog]

5 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

@Rylas - this most recent turn in the thread is what I think is illustrative of how such a toggle would be managed to restrict choices.

 

If such a toggle where created (I'm talking about the Inherent toggle you suggested, not the insanity that is a team leader toggle), there would be many team leaders who would insist you toggle off your powers to be a part of the team.  Suddenly my play choices become restricted...I have either fewer teaming options, or I can't use the KB powers that I personally love so much...

 

If I really hated KB, in the Live days, you only option would be to not use KB powers...In HC, we have more choices, skip the power or use a slot on any KB power that matters to you.  It's not a "tax", it's a choice...As was mentioned there are very few KB heavy sets, and they can be avoided...

 

I appreciate the view point you've espoused this whole thread, and I think you've been, as always, highly respectful, thoughtful, and courteous in your approach here...I know your motivation is improve your own gaming experience without hurting anyone else's, and in fact to provide more choices...but this approach will hurt others gaming, and provide them with less choices....

I don't see how someone requiring you to make a choice restricts your choice. 

And I say this as someone who really enjoys my E/E blaster and loves to send things flying. But having a toggle would just open up more choice.

Currently, when faced with a leader who hates KB you have the choice :

A. Sacrifice a slot (for possibly EVERY damage power, if you are E blaster say) to play on his team.

B. play by yourself.

C. Find a team cool with KB

 

THIS suggestion actually offers you more choice.

A. Sacrifice slot(s).

B. Play on the team with the toggle set to KD

C. Play by yourself, with it set however you want.
D. Find ANOTHER team that is cool with KB.

 

Everybody wins.

 

 

 

 

 

[justicebeliever]

Just now, quixoteprog said:

I don't see how someone requiring you to make a choice restricts your choice. 

And I say this as someone who really enjoys my E/E blaster and loves to send things flying. But having a toggle would just open up more choice.

Currently, when faced with a leader who hates KB you have the choice :

A. Sacrifice a slot (for possibly EVERY damage power, if you are E blaster say) to play on his team.

B. play by yourself.

C. Find a team cool with KB

 

THIS suggestion actually offers you more choice.

A. Sacrifice slot(s).

B. Play on the team with the toggle set to KD

C. Play by yourself, with it set however you want.
D. Find ANOTHER team that is cool with KB.

 

Everybody wins.

If the whole universe was people who either "hate KB with a passion" or "think KB is awesomesauce" I would agree with you 100%

 

But there is a big pool of people who dislike KB but tolerate it...Even the OP is fine with KB if it's played a certain way (and I agree with the style he supported).  However, if there is this new toggle,, it becomes easier for a larger segment of team leaders to just say "turn off your KB if you want to play with us".  The "turn off KB" becomes an acceptable club (the hitting kind) to use on players to force them to play a certain way...While not as draconian as the suggestion about a team toggle, it essentially still will serve the same purpose in allowing team leaders to feel justified to insist players turn off their KB to join or play on their team...

 

So the pool of people I can team with and use KB with becomes much smaller...fewer choices for me to team with someone...

[TheAdjustor]

30 minutes ago, Nayeh said:

This thread is silly.

 

Knockback has practical use in terms of both displacement and an airborne stun-CC. There are plenty of Controllers and Dominators out there that are happy to drop Immobilize on a group that anchors the enemies to the ground and completely prevents displacement. Rarely have I encountered situations where Knockback did not work in a team's favor. If you want content where monsters are conveniently grouped together and don't roam I suggest sticking to AE in the bumper lane.

Just a note knockback and chance of knockback are two very different things. Chance of KB in an area effect ability is very bad

Edited August 26, 2019 by TheAdjustor

[Rylas]

8 hours ago, kelly Rocket said:

 

Because you're the Team Leader. It's your team, your rules. This is *already* the case, it just changes the way it works from the team leader kicking you off their team to them being able to turn on that toggle and then you decide whether you want to stay or not.

You've confused being a leader with being a boss. Leaders lead. Bosses make demands. 

 

Next time you're forming a team, make sure when you're spamming LFG looking for members that you clarify you'd like to dictate how they use their powers. At least then you can spare people of having to deal with you. 

[quixoteprog]

40 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

If the whole universe was people who either "hate KB with a passion" or "think KB is awesomesauce" I would agree with you 100%

 

But there is a big pool of people who dislike KB but tolerate it...Even the OP is fine with KB if it's played a certain way (and I agree with the style he supported).  However, if there is this new toggle,, it becomes easier for a larger segment of team leaders to just say "turn off your KB if you want to play with us".  The "turn off KB" becomes an acceptable club (the hitting kind) to use on players to force them to play a certain way...While not as draconian as the suggestion about a team toggle, it essentially still will serve the same purpose in allowing team leaders to feel justified to insist players turn off their KB to join or play on their team...

 

So the pool of people I can team with and use KB with becomes much smaller...fewer choices for me to team with someone...

So, your saying that my OPTIONS of people to group with would be fewer but I'm saying my CHOICES of how to play would actually be GREATER. It may just seem like semantics, but I think it's important. 

 

With this new option there may be more people who insist on me playing a certain way WITH THEM,although I think your fears are exaggerated.

 

If this were WoW, with a lot of hard core players who look at end game content as a job that rewards play who are WILLING TO PUT IN THE WORK! (please add a "BOOYA!" tone to the all caps section) Then, yeah, that could happen all the time. I saw one clan that required you to submit a "resume" for your character in order to join. They didn't want anyone slowing them down. I never submitted one, but would not have made the cut if I did.

 

This game, however, seems like more of a safe place. I seriously doubt that you are going to find THAT many more people willing to kick you because you won't conform to their play style.

 

But the current situation means I either need to alter my powers in a permanent/semi-permanent way, or not play with the haters. In exchange, under the current system, you think I can now have the option to play with people who TOLERATE me. They are annoyed by my presence, just not enough to kick me from the group. That sounds less fun than just soloing.

 

I personally would prefer the option to solo the way I want, and if I want to group I have the option to make a concession to the group, when I have to.

 

 

[Redlynne]

Will there be Social Pressure to use powers "a certain way" in the game?

Of course!  That's just human nature.  Players are manipulative/control obsessed little bah-stids, after all, who are quite capable of "working the refs" to get whatever they want (right now).

 

However, equating the OPTION to coordinate with that social pressure as ipso facto DICTATING that everyone must succumb to that social pressure EVERY SINGLE TIME (without exception!) is excessive ... in the same sense of "give an inch, take a mile" is.

 

Learn to have some sense of proportion people!

And while you're at it, try to get in touch with a piece of fairy cake ... it'll do you good, promise.

[Rylas]

1 hour ago, justicebeliever said:

@Rylas - this most recent turn in the thread is what I think is illustrative of how such a toggle would be managed to restrict choices.

 

If such a toggle where created (I'm talking about the Inherent toggle you suggested, not the insanity that is a team leader toggle), there would be many team leaders who would insist you toggle off your powers to be a part of the team.  Suddenly my play choices become restricted...I have either fewer teaming options, or I can't use the KB powers that I personally love so much...

I hear a lot of this talk about people not liking certain power sets or certain ATs. And that this leads to exclusion or will lead to exclusion on a scale that will make it difficult for people to be able to team. There's a similar argument that Tankers are often not accepted on teams because Brutes "do it better." My experience on Tankers has not been anywhere close to that. Has there been a time or two that it's happened? One time I know for sure, and that's because they said they already had a tanker and needed support. A couple of other times I might have assumed it was possible. Overall, I find teams pretty easily or form my own. I've never felt my choices were restricted by playing a tanker.

 

These appeals to fear just don't sell me on their premise. It's focusing on the lowest common denominator and offers zero empirical data on being close to true. We can't stop idiots from occupying the world or a game, and making decisions on purely the idea of not having to deal with them isn't how progress is made. Instead of focusing on the mouth breathers that want to tell you how to play, people should instead note the ones that play well with others and add them to their friend or global list. The answer isn't worrying about idiots bullying their way on others, it's rewarding the ones who know how to be a team player by building your community with them. 

 

Quote

If I really hated KB, in the Live days, you only option would be to not use KB powers...In HC, we have more choices, skip the power or use a slot on any KB power that matters to you.  It's not a "tax", it's a choice...As was mentioned there are very few KB heavy sets, and they can be avoided...

 

I appreciate the view point you've espoused this whole thread, and I think you've been, as always, highly respectful, thoughtful, and courteous in your approach here...I know your motivation is improve your own gaming experience without hurting anyone else's, and in fact to provide more choices...but this approach will hurt others gaming, and provide them with less choices....

And I appreciate the concerns that have been brought up. I'll never deny there are morons out there that can make the game a less pleasant experience if you let them. I just think that making choices around how things can be done based on them, is still letting them make choices for you. That's just my mentality though, and I understand if it's not for everyone. At the end of the day, it's only a suggestion and not one worth creating big arguments over. But hopefully it can lead to a better idea that more people can be on board with that leads to more fine tuned control over ones play style. 

Edited August 26, 2019 by Rylas

[Redlynne]

4 minutes ago, Rylas said:

I just think that making choices around how things can be done based on them, is still letting them make choices for you.

At the end of the day, it really comes down to a question of "who gets the last word" on how you're going to use your powers in-game.

 

There are basically 3 options:

1. YOU do
2. Your Teammates do
3. The Developers do

Rarely does empowering YOU to CHOOSE (for yourself!) how your powers are going to function result in options 2 and/or 3 taking precedence.  Can it happen?  Sure, but it'll be rare, rather than a constant, let alone a foregone conclusion.

 

Empowering a Team Leader to "choose" how your powers are going to function railroads everything into option 2 ... and keeps it there.

 

Preventing you from having any choices in the matter whatsoever means that option 3 wins by default.  Duh.

 

 

 

Will social pressures "exist" to play one particular way?

Of course!  But not everyone succumbs to that social pressure by default.  Shocking, I know.

 

Point being that giving PLAYERS options for controlling how their powers "work" ... On Demand no less(!) ... will RARELY result in a "heads I win, tails you lose" situation, while having no option at all actually makes the "heads I win, tails you lose" outcome more likely.

 

 

 

It's like I always say.

 

You can lead a man to water, but you cannot make him THINK.

[justicebeliever]

@RylasI hear you about this being an appeal to fear, and of course it is, I'll concede that...But if fears are justified, then it's the appropriate appeal...

• Will allowing such a inherent toggle cause all team leaders to force KB'er's to turn it off?  Of course not...
• Will allowing it, empower some team leaders who currently live with it, become more draconian?  Of course it will...

Anyone who argues the above two points I won't engage with, because they have left reality...(I'm not accusing anyone on this thread of having argued those points already, just want to make sure we are all on the same playing field)...Conversely, we should concede (if we are all in reality)

• Allowing such a toggle will allow some players who feel limited in their teaming options because of KB more freedom to team...Agree
• Allowing such a toggle will force some players who enjoy KB to restrict its usage to conform to a new social norm...Agree

The question becomes then on of scope, impact, and effort.  Creating the change will give some players/teams more freedom, and other players less freedom...What are the #'s?  I have no idea which group of players are bigger and more impacted...But it's clear it's not a slam dunk decision from a player perspective.

 

So then let's look at the effort, and question - is it worth the effort to create a mechanism that will be divisive?  If it turns out that it impacts on group more than the others, is it easily rolled back?  Technically, probably yes, very easy...Socially, no, people who finally get this would be super pissed if they then lost it...

 

And let's look at recourse...

If we don't make the change, and I want to play a KB centric powerset, but don't like KB (which is an interesting question in itself), do I have recourse if I want to play on teams who don't like KB...Yes, I can slot a Sudden Acceleration or Overwhelming Force...not perfect, I agree

 

If we do make the change, and I want to play a KB centric powerset, and I do like KB, do I have recourse to play on the same amount of teams that I used to?  No, I am forced to either turn off KB, or not team as much...

 

So I'll agree there are no clear cut winners or losers no matter what we do, but for me (and I am biased, as are all the other posters on this thread) it's not worth the risks for the rewards...

[MunkiLord]

If such a toggle is made, I think it should be a pool power of some type. Powerset changing options having a cost(in this case a pool and power choice) is consistent with the game and the way it plays and is designed.

[Rylas]

3 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

If such a toggle is made, I think it should be a pool power of some type. Powerset changing options having a cost(in this case a pool and power choice) is consistent with the game and the way it plays and is designed.

That's a pretty solid idea. And for the argument that people would be socially pressured to use said toggle, it would be easy to claim "no room in my build for it". 

[justicebeliever]

16 minutes ago, Rylas said:

That's a pretty solid idea. And for the argument that people would be socially pressured to use said toggle, it would be easy to claim "no room in my build for it". 

20 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

If such a toggle is made, I think it should be a pool power of some type. Powerset changing options having a cost(in this case a pool and power choice) is consistent with the game and the way it plays and is designed.

 

I like this idea...and like you said @Rylas, it's has no more (in fact, less I would say) social pressure than the current Sudden Acceleration Enhancements...You aren't going to ask someone to respec their character because they didn't take a power...at least not anymore often than someone would kick you for not burning an enhancement slot...

[Steampunkette]

I'm interested, again, thank you Munkilord!

 

What's the rest of the pool?

 

GASP! What if we made it a "Metapower Manipulation" pool? Toggles and Clicks that allow you to change certain functions, some of them exclusive (So no one can use the KB to KD and the 100% KB chance increase toggles to keep enemies in fire pits forever)

 

So 5 powers makes a pool. Let's see... what could we add...

 

Tier 1) "Focused Power Use" (20% End Discount, Toggle .56 end/sec, 45 second Cooldown, Detoggles on CC)

Tier 2) "Explosive Effort" (KD to KB, Click 30 second duration, 3 minute Cooldown)

Tier 3) "Restrained Impulses" (KB to KD, Click, 90 second duration, 3 minute Cooldown)

Tier 4) "Directed Force" (KB to KU, Toggle, 1 minute duration, 2 minute Cooldown)

Tier 5) "Empathic Investment" (Sleep to Stun, Click, 30 second Duration, 5 minute Cooldown)

 

Yup... Making this it's own thread...

[PaxArcana]

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

GASP! What if we made it a "Metapower Manipulation" pool? Toggles and Clicks that allow you to change certain functions, some of them exclusive (So no one can use the KB to KD and the 100% KB chance increase toggles to keep enemies in fire pits forever)

.... I could actually see something like this being of interest.  A pool that is completely open (all powers, all levels, no prerequisite picks) ... but you can perhaps only get ONE, ever.  Choose it with care!

Which would also stave off some of that social pressure.

Player A: "Hey, why don't you have the KB-to-KD pool power?
Player B: "Because I took ________ from that pool instead."
Player A: "Oh, okay."

...

The real trick will be figuring out what sorts of things can be done, and THEN, figuring out whether it'd be more work than it would ultimately be worth to actually implement it.

[Megajoule]

Meh. Sorry, but I'm reminded of an old rule from the MUD / MUSH days, still just as true IMO: "You can't solve social problems with software." (aka, you can't make people be nice to each other.)

[Rylas]

2 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

Metapower Manipulation

Tier 1) "Focused Power Use" (20% End Discount, Toggle .56 end/sec, 45 second Cooldown, Detoggles on CC)

Tier 2) "Explosive Effort" (KD to KB, Click 30 second duration, 3 minute Cooldown)

Tier 3) "Restrained Impulses" (KB to KD, Click, 90 second duration, 3 minute Cooldown)

Tier 4) "Directed Force" (KB to KU, Toggle, 1 minute duration, 2 minute Cooldown)

Tier 5) "Empathic Investment" (Sleep to Stun, Click, 30 second Duration, 5 minute Cooldown)

Focused Power Use seems slightly odd only because it's a toggle with end cost. Would it discount itself? And why detoggle as a self-affecting power? Would a half as strong discount as an auto power be balanced? 

Explosive Effort makes as a click with longer cooldown since KD to KB potentially provides more mitigation.

Restrained Impulses would make more sense as a toggle without end cost or cool down, but regarding a concern you brought up earlier, powers that only do KB should probably be unaffected by it. And I only say it would make more sense this way as it would give the player an on-demand ability to switch play styles, much like Adaptation in Bio Armor.

Directed Force again, think this makes sense as a toggle without end cost or cool down. KB to KU wouldn't add any mitigation since the foes melee attacks would still be usable once they got up. But I'm open to hearing why either should be time limited.

Empathic Investment Nice to see a mix up away from KB/KD/KU mechanics. Could this additionally change other mez or secondary effects with exclusive power options. For example, changing Fear to Stun, but you can only pick one switch up. Clearly, switches would need to be evaluated for balance reasons, but Sleep/Stun seems a combo that might only be useful to few people. 

 

Can this be evolution in discussion be an olive branch?

 

EDIT: Oh, and maybe instead of a pool, it's content unlocked. Like the patron pools. Which provides further difficulty for KB haters to justify their demands.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Rylas