Overwhelming Force proc. Make this a global effect.

[William Valence]

Fuck it, make it an Alpha slot.

 

People want the reduce their slot investment, well that's one of the primary purposes of the Alpha slot.

 

*Restraint Alpha Boost*

	Boost	Core boost	Radial Boost	Total core revamp	Partial Core Revamp	Partial Radial Revamp	Total Radial revamp	Core Paragon	Radial Paragon
Primary	KB ->KD	KB ->KD	KB ->KD	KB ->KD	KB ->KD	KB ->KD	KB ->KD	KB ->KD	KB ->KD
Secondary	x	Dam 33%	Range 20%	Damage 45% Range 10%	Range 33% Damage 16.5%	Damage 33% Range 10%	Range 20% Damage 16.5%	Damage 45% Range 33%	Damage 33% Range 20%
Tertiary	x	x	x	x	x	-Tohit 20%	EndMod 33%	x	-Tohit 20% EndMod 33% Disorient 33%
ED Bypass	x	1/3	1/3	1/2	1/2	1/2	1/2	2/3	2/3

 

 

[Zolgar]

1 hour ago, Cix said:

Then there's Cottage Rule stuff.  A person who logs off on an energy/energy blaster expect the powers to work the same the next morning.  If they had an Overwhelming Force proc slotted in Nova, they're going to be pretty ticked when Power Thrust doesn't knock a guy out of their face.

By that logic, they should never alter anything. That Energy blaster is in no worse shape than all the people who build blasters on the old method of instasnipe needing to change up their playstyles because Snipes function differently with the latest patch.

 

The game is living and changing, adjustments are made for power balance and QoL.

 

The cottage rule doesn't say "don't change anything", it is to not deviate from the overall nature of the game/sets. Just making all Energy Blast powers do KD instead of KB would break the cottage rule. Making it easier for those who want to convert the KB to KD in all their powers does not.

 

Now, ideally they would instead add a new set that does the global, instead of changing the existing one, and it's possible that's their long term plan, but in the testing phase they're just changing an existing set to see if they can make it work and test it's balance.

[Voldine]

7 hours ago, Zolgar said:

Now, ideally they would instead add a new set that does the global, instead of changing the existing one, and it's possible that's their long term plan, but in the testing phase they're just changing an existing set to see if they can make it work and test it's balance.

This is really the only option they have in the end. They MUST make a new set for this proposed 'global change' unique piece or else they completely invalidate everyone who currently uses the existing converter in their build in a granular manner and would not wish to see their build completely changed because of a bunch of loud jerks who can't stand knockback, and a bunch of other people complaining about 'slot tax' because of the loud jerks that constantly complain about knockback.

 

The current devs must keep in mind that the existing set piece already serves two different purposes which would be used in two different ways by two different powers on the same character, and that turning it into a SINGLE effect that is effectively NEITHER of those two purposes and instead changes all powers in only one of the two ways it used to function...to paraphrase an old webcomic; that would be pants-on-head-retarded.

 

Call the new set: Vocal Minority Pacifier. Make the icon a pink baby pacifier. Make it a Knockback set, meaning a grey background, that just happens to not actually enhance knockback. Give the rest of the set decent bonuses to recharge, endred, and accuracy, but minimal damage bonuses. Problem: SOLVED.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Voldine

[Bossk_Hogg]

9 hours ago, William Valence said:

Fuck it, make it an Alpha slot.

 

People want the reduce their slot investment, well that's one of the primary purposes of the Alpha slot.

 

*Restraint Alpha Boost*

	Boost	Core boost	Radial Boost	Total core revamp	Partial Core Revamp	Partial Radial Revamp	Total Radial revamp	Core Paragon	Radial Paragon
Primary	KB ->KD	KB ->KD	KB ->KD	KB ->KD	KB ->KD	KB ->KD	KB ->KD	KB ->KD	KB ->KD
Secondary	x	Dam 33%	Range 20%	Damage 45% Range 10%	Range 33% Damage 16.5%	Damage 33% Range 10%	Range 20% Damage 16.5%	Damage 45% Range 33%	Damage 33% Range 20%
Tertiary	x	x	x	x	x	-Tohit 20%	EndMod 33%	x	-Tohit 20% EndMod 33% Disorient 33%
ED Bypass	x	1/3	1/3	1/2	1/2	1/2	1/2	2/3	2/3

 

 

It's too much of an investment to fix weak power design. Energy Blastr is already pretty mediocre in damage. 

 

Just make a null the gull setting and be done with it. That way people can swap on the fly for solo and teaming.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Bossk_Hogg

[William Valence]

2 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

It's too much of an investment to fix weak power design. Energy Blastr is already pretty mediocre in damage. 

 

Just make a null the gull setting and be done with it. That way people can swap on the fly for solo and teaming.

No that's a bad idea.

 

It enforces the idea that a person gets to decide what effects are bad and remove/change them without cost. How much control should a person have over their powers? Should I be able to remove the Afraid/Avoid in Burn or caltrops? As much as people say it, knockback isn't bad, nor is it the end of the world to have. If people really want to get rid of it it should come with some kind of investment. Alpha slots just happen to be purpose made to accommodate that type of situation.

[kelly Rocket]

Actually they removed the Afraid effect in Burn (At least for Fiery Aura) because yes, it was bad design. And knockback WAS a bad idea that the original devs had already gone and changed to knockdown on most sets when they gave them rebalancing passes, and notice none of the newest sets use it much, if at all?

 

Yeah, because they realized the initial devs were idiots for thinking it was a good/valuable effect.

[Rathulfr]

16 hours ago, Vayek2 said:

which means you aren't just discussing, you are arguing to take away the choices of others because it inconveniences you in some way, when alternatives to keep the way you want are plentiful. Its not a discussion at that point, just an argument.

How convenient of you to selectively edit my paragraph to remove the second sentence, which was: "Perhaps if the suggestion was to make the KB-to-KD proc apply globally only to AoEs, I'd go along with it."  I believe that was my alternative suggestion, which is not exclusively argumentative.

[Bossk_Hogg]

2 hours ago, William Valence said:

No that's a bad idea.

 

It enforces the idea that a person gets to decide what effects are bad and remove/change them without cost. How much control should a person have over their powers? Should I be able to remove the Afraid/Avoid in Burn or caltrops? As much as people say it, knockback isn't bad, nor is it the end of the world to have. If people really want to get rid of it it should come with some kind of investment. Alpha slots just happen to be purpose made to accommodate that type of situation.

If it's an actual perk, like all the KB apologists claim, then it should cost nothing to remove. The fear in burn and caltrops is a penalty to balance them (and was removed on certain AT's). 

 

So is KB a bonus or a penalty? Because the lackluster damage of energy blast and peacebringers doesnt seem to warrant such a penalty...

 

If you want to raise the damage to compensate for the hassle of KB, I'd be fine with that. KB is an outdated and frankly too weak a form of control to bother putting up with. For comparison, Dark provides more safety with -tohit and has a perfectly cromulent KB if you want that. 

Edited August 29, 2019 by Bossk_Hogg

[Rathulfr]

17 hours ago, Vayek2 said:

you can get the same knockback protection from the steadfast protection proc, and save yourself those other 5 slots. Slot smarter, not harder.

I don't think you understand the issue.  It doesn't matter if the KB protection is offered by Karma or Steadfast Protection, because I don't have a slot to spare for either one.

 

The issue is that I want to keep the single-target KB in my other 4 attack powers, but change my AoEs to KD.  Right now, I accomplish that with a complete set of Overwhelming Force in Explosive Blast (a targeted AoE), and a single Sudden Acceleration in the 6th slot of Nova (a PBAoE).

 

If the OF KB2KB IO is changed to a universal global, that changes all of my KBs to KDs.  So that means I would have to remove the OF KB2KD from EB to restore the ST KB in the other 4 attacks.  But that reverts EB to a KB attack, too.  To convert that to KD again, I'd have to put a SA KB2KD in the sixth slot of EB.  So EB still has 6 slots: 5 with OF, and 1 with SA.  By 5-slotting OF, I lose 4 points of KB protection, which I can't get back any other way, because the 6th slot is still allocated to EB for SA.  I get the same Sophie's Choice with Nova: keep the SA there for KD, or lose the KD to move the 6th slot to a defense or resistance power for Karma or Steadfast Protection.

 

So here are my choices:

• lose KB in single-target attacks,
• lose KD in AoE attacks, 
• lose 4 points of KB protection, or
• lose a slot of something else in defense or resistance for 4 points of KB protection.

I don't see the upside of my going along with a universal global KB-to-KD conversion.  I'm not gaining anything from the suggestion, so I'm politely registering my disagreement and declining to support the proposed change.

 

However, if the suggestion were changed to make the universal global KB-to-KD conversion apply to AoEs only, I would support it.  Heck, I'd love that, as it means I could remove SA from Nova, and gain back the 6 slot bonus effect from Superior: Avalanche (a minor bump to typed defenses).

Edited August 29, 2019 by Rathulfr

[kelly Rocket]

10 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

I don't think you understand the issue.  It doesn't matter if the KB protection is offered by Karma or Steadfast Protection, because I don't have a slot to spare for either one.

 

The issue is that I want to keep the single-target KB in my other 4 attack powers, but change my AoEs to KD.  Right now, I accomplish that with a complete set of Overwhelming Force in Explosive Blast (a targeted AoE), and a single Sudden Acceleration in the 6th slot of Nova.

 

If the OF KB2KB IO is changed to a universal global, that changes all of my KBs to KDs.  So that means I would have to remove the OF KB2KD from EB to restore the ST KB in the other 4 attacks.  But that reverts EB to a KB attack, too.  To convert that to KD again, I'd have to put a SA KB2KD in the sixth slot of EB.  So EB still has 6 slots: 5 with OF, and 1 with SA.  By 5-slotting OF, I lose 4 points of KB protection, which I can't get back any other way, because the 6th slot is still allocated to EB for SA.  I get the same Sophie's Choice with Nova: keep the SA there for KD, or lose the KD to move the 6th slot to a defense or resistance power for Karma or Steadfast Protection.

 

So here are my choices:

• lose KB in single-target attacks,
• lose KD in AoE attacks, 
• lose 4 points of KB protection, or
• lose a slot of something else in defense or resistance for 4 points of KB protection.

I don't see the upside of my going along with a universal global KB-to-KD conversion.  I'm not gaining anything from the suggestion, so I'm politely registering my disagreement and declining to support the proposed change.

 

However, if the suggestion were changed to make the universal global KB-to-KD conversion apply to AoEs only, I would support it.  Heck, I'd love that, as it means I could remove SA from Nova, and gain back the 6 slot bonus effect from Superior: Avalanche (a minor bump to typed defenses).

If you're swapping out the OF proc with SA, you probably could afford to reslot the entire power... OF isn't really a great set overall, you're almost certainly better off frankenslotting that power and using less slots in it IMO.

[Black Zot]

13 hours ago, William Valence said:

Fuck it, make it an Alpha slot.

 

People want the reduce their slot investment, well that's one of the primary purposes of the Alpha slot.

 

*Restraint Alpha Boost*

	Boost	Core boost	Radial Boost	Total core revamp	Partial Core Revamp	Partial Radial Revamp	Total Radial revamp	Core Paragon	Radial Paragon
Primary	KB ->KD	KB ->KD	KB ->KD	KB ->KD	KB ->KD	KB ->KD	KB ->KD	KB ->KD	KB ->KD
Secondary	x	Dam 33%	Range 20%	Damage 45% Range 10%	Range 33% Damage 16.5%	Damage 33% Range 10%	Range 20% Damage 16.5%	Damage 45% Range 33%	Damage 33% Range 20%
Tertiary	x	x	x	x	x	-Tohit 20%	EndMod 33%	x	-Tohit 20% EndMod 33% Disorient 33%
ED Bypass	x	1/3	1/3	1/2	1/2	1/2	1/2	2/3	2/3

 

 

 

So you want people to gimp their entire build worse than any slot investment could ever do, to free up some slots?

 

Do you not realize how bass-ackwards that is?

[kelly Rocket]

I honestly think /coxg/ has the right idea just giving everyone an inherent KB->KD toggle they can turn on.

[Rathulfr]

Just now, kelly Rocket said:

If you're swapping out the OF proc with SA, you probably could afford to reslot the entire power... OF isn't really a great set overall, you're almost certainly better off frankenslotting that power and using less slots in it IMO.

I actually like OF just the way it is, thanks.  I considered other sets for EB, and decided that I wanted OF.  It works for my build as is. 

 

I find suggestions like this too cavalier: just because you might do things differently shouldn't mean that I have to do things your way.  That cuts against the grain of one of the fundamental benefits of the game: there isn't only just one way to build a successful character in CoH -- even a character with the same primary/secondary as another player's.

 

[kelly Rocket]

There's many ways to build a successful character, but there's generally only a handful of ways to build an optimal character.

 

If you like it, that's fine, but it could probably be stronger built other ways. It's almost never optimal to slot all 6 pieces of any set, aside from Gaussian's.

Edited August 29, 2019 by kelly Rocket

[Rathulfr]

5 minutes ago, kelly Rocket said:

I honestly think /coxg/ has the right idea just giving everyone an inherent KB->KD toggle they can turn on.

Does that toggle apply to all attacks?  If so, then that's no good, unless I can turn it off and on while in combat, so that my single-target attacks do KB, and my AoEs do KD.  And even then, I'd probably want to /macro that, so that the toggles are triggered when I fire the attacks, e.g.: /macro Nova "KBtoKD true$$powexecname Nova"; or, /macro PB1 "KBtoKD false$$powexecname Power Bolt".

[Rathulfr]

2 minutes ago, kelly Rocket said:

There's many ways to build a successful character, but there's generally only a handful of ways to build an optimal character.

 

If you like it, that's fine, but it could probably be stronger built other ways. It's almost never optimal to slot all 6 pieces of any set, aside from Gaussian's.

 

I'm not sure I agree with you on that.  In fact, I'm pretty sure I completely disagree with you on that.  Besides, "optimal" is an entirely subjective definition.  Optimal for what?  Damage?  Control?  Concept?  Laughs?  I can pretty much guarantee that your definition of "optimal" is almost entirely unique to you, and definitely not universal to everyone.

 

[William Valence]

44 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

If it's an actual perk, like all the KB apologists claim, then it should cost nothing to remove. The fear in burn and caltrops is a penalty to balance them (and was removed on certain AT's). 

 

So is KB a bonus or a penalty? Because the lackluster damage of energy blast and peacebringers doesnt seem to warrant such a penalty...

Damage, even for energy blast, is a function of recharge, endurance, and area of effect. If damage is lackluster it's more due to an unfavorable ratio of those than it is the presence of KB. And my issue is that there seems to be an undue entitlement to control over the KB in powers for no cost. People want to control the effects of their powersets with no cost, and I'm wondering why they get to.

 

The reasoning seems to be that people think that KB is a universally negative effect or a limiter effect, which I don't necessarily agree with. Which is why I'm arguing against a cost free universal solution. However there is a KB to KD slotting option, and Alpha slots are made specifically to apply global slotting to all powers that accept them. Seems like the best compromise between maintaining consistency in there needing to be a slotting cost, and providing a "Universal" option.

 

56 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

So you want people to gimp their entire build worse than any slot investment could ever do, to free up some slots?

 

Do you not realize how bass-ackwards that is?

I'll bite; how does that gimp a build?

 

You lose one enhancement type of a usually secondary/tertiary type to trade for universal KB/KD. When range is one of the enhancements and Control is not, then the enhancement we don't have would have been a soft control like sleep or fear. Seems like a fair trade. Does the lack of one of these enhancement types gimp builds worse than any slot investment ever could?

 

You keep the 45% Sch A and 33% for sch B on Core Paragon. Both damage and range are beneficial to sets that have KB. And according to the claims on the number of slots needed to remove KB in a full build you do gain a good number of slots to fill with other enhancement types.

[Megajoule]

9 minutes ago, William Valence said:

I'll bite; how does that gimp a build?

 

You lose one enhancement type of a usually secondary/tertiary type to trade for universal KB/KD. 

You also lose the six-slot set bonuses. Some of those might, I suppose, be worthwhile to some people...

[William Valence]

1 minute ago, Megajoule said:

You also lose the six-slot set bonuses. Some of those might, I suppose, be worthwhile to some people...

Alpha slot doesn't prevent you from slotting for set bonuses. You can still slot for damage with Musculature alpha, no reason to say you couldn't continue slot the KB->KD with the proposed Restraint Alpha slot.

[Black Zot]

33 minutes ago, William Valence said:

I'll bite; how does that gimp a build?

 

 

How does it NOT gimp a build to expend a third of your most powerful enhancement option on something that even the HC team acknowledges shouldn't cost more than one slot?

[William Valence]

5 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

How does it NOT gimp a build to expend a third of your most powerful enhancement option on something that even the HC team acknowledges shouldn't cost more than one slot?

vvvv This is why it doesn't vvvv

43 minutes ago, William Valence said:

You lose one enhancement type of a usually secondary/tertiary type to trade for universal KB/KD. When range is one of the enhancements and Control is not, then the enhancement we don't have would have been a soft control like sleep or fear. Seems like a fair trade. Does the lack of one of these enhancement types gimp builds worse than any slot investment ever could?

 

You keep the 45% Sch A and 33% for sch B on Core Paragon. Both damage and range are beneficial to sets that have KB. And according to the claims on the number of slots needed to remove KB in a full build you do gain a good number of slots to fill with other enhancement types.

Also I haven't see where the HC devs said that universal KB->KD should take one enhancement slot in a build, mind linking it for me? My search-fu seems to be coming up short.

[Vanden]

12 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

How does it NOT gimp a build to expend a third of your most powerful enhancement option on something that even the HC team acknowledges shouldn't cost more than one slot?

Alpha abilities give one SO's worth of enhancement to everything they affect. For example, Musculature Boost is like slotting one damage SO in every power you have. To convert all your knockback powers to knockdown, you'd have to slot a KB-to-KD enhancement in every power; a KB-to-KD Alpha would be the same thing, like putting a KB-to-KD in every power. You would lose the bonus that certain Core variations get where the primary enhancement type is stronger, but William Valence addressed that by giving that bonus to the secondary enhancement types in the power. (Both of them, in fact, which is not normal, but I'll just chalk that up to the poster not realizing that only one enhancement value in an Alpha ever gets higher than SO-level numbers, never more.)

[Bossk_Hogg]

1 hour ago, William Valence said:

Damage, even for energy blast, is a function of recharge, endurance, and area of effect. If damage is lackluster it's more due to an unfavorable ratio of those than it is the presence of KB. And my issue is that there seems to be an undue entitlement to control over the KB in powers for no cost. People want to control the effects of their powersets with no cost, and I'm wondering why they get to.[/quote]

Blasts have secondary effects. Fire gets more damage. Dark gets -to hit. Sonic gets - resistance. All of them are universally good (or are supposed to be). KB is the secondary for Energy Blast. Should it take a slot to remove the to hit from dark? If KB is soooooo friggin good like you KB apologists want to pretend, why should someone have to pay to remove it?

 

Or, if it is a penalty, why does EB not do more damage than other sets? Because it's pretty underwhelming at really everything except pissing your teammates off and slowing down missions by scattering crap everywhere. 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2019 by Bossk_Hogg

[Black Zot]

21 minutes ago, William Valence said:

Also I haven't see where the HC devs said that universal KB->KD should take one enhancement slot in a build, mind linking it for me? My search-fu seems to be coming up short.

 

Note that the OF proc affecting the whole character is presently being tested on Justin; that's what got this thread started.  That wouldn't happen if the devs thought KB->KD should cost slots from every single affected power.

 

Facts are facts.  KB is the worst secondary effect for an offensive set bar none, and sets that "feature" it offer nothing to make up for disrupting the entire team every time the player pushes a button.  Your suggested alternative to taxing every knockback power a slot to make it usable in a team environment is to essentially tax EVERY POWER IN THE PLAYER'S BUILD.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Black Zot

[William Valence]

4 minutes ago, Vanden said:

(Both of them, in fact, which is not normal, but I'll just chalk that up to the poster not realizing that only one enhancement value in an Alpha ever gets higher than SO-level numbers, never more.)

I did that because I didn't think there was a big enough difference between Partial Core Revamp and Core Paragon. May have been unneeded, but it was intentional to have a power bump from the Revamp to paragon.

 

4 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Should it take a slot to remove the to hit from dark?

Yes.

 

Well, no you shouldn't even have the option, but as it happens for KB there is an enhancement type for that. As it also happens there's an incarnate power that does global enhancement slotting, so that presents itself as a good way to introduce a "universal" slotting, because that's what the Alpha slot is for.

 

2 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

Your suggested alternative to taxing every knockback power a slot to make it usable in a team environment is to essentially tax EVERY POWER IN THE PLAYER'S BUILD.

I'm sure you have a reason to say this, but I can't possibly come up with a way to have this sentence make sense. Can you please try to rephrase? How is it taxing every power in the build? Am I misunderstanding what you're trying to say?