Overwhelming Force proc. Make this a global effect.

[kelly Rocket]

6 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

That's not accurate. They balanced power damage and secondary effects independently. Early on they never considered the impact of cast time, but the damage/recharge formula was in place since launch and has never been revised.

 

The only time where a secondary effect impacted damage, was when the secondary effect itself was simply more damage.

 

How they valued secondary effects, though, was very arbitrary. If anything, IMO, they undervalued the mitigation capabilities of knockdown and knockback, the effect often is drastically superior at locking down bosses and crowds than holds and stuns (and I mean secondary effect hold and stuns, not the hold or stuns in powers that are dedicated crowd control powers.)

I'd agree regarding knockdown, but not knockback. The extreme increase knockback causes in your clear times utterly outweighs the benefit in mitigation. And yes, clear times matter. XP/hour matters. 

 

Knockdown is very valuable. Knockback is not. Unless you're soloing at absolute scrub difficulty.

 

And I'm afraid that I don't believe that for a second about their damage formulae. The quite vast disparities in the DPS (Let alone DPA) between sets can't be explained by anything other than deliberate design. Especially when you consider that those gaps have been tightened over the years, by people who actually were trying to reduce the DPS/DPA gaps, and they're still this big. And they do generally line up such that powers with no secondary effects do better damage than those with secondary effects.

 

I know they claim to have had a formula and intended for everything to be equivalent, but I don't believe it for a microsecond.

Edited September 1, 2019 by kelly Rocket

[Vanden]

To anyone reading this thread, kelly Rocket is quite incorrect on this topic. They've made it clear enough that they won't be convinced, but please don't let their extreme confidence in their viewpoint sway you; there are definite damage formulae that govern power balance, and they're posted in a stickied thread in the Guides forum for anyone who's interested.

[kelly Rocket]

14 minutes ago, Vanden said:

To anyone reading this thread, kelly Rocket is quite incorrect on this topic. They've made it clear enough that they won't be convinced, but please don't let their extreme confidence in their viewpoint sway you; there are definite damage formulae that govern power balance, and they're posted in a stickied thread in the Guides forum for anyone who's interested.

There are now. There weren't originally--which is what I was discussing. And furthermore, even with those formulae different sets have WILDLY different DPS/DPA potential.

[Haijinx]

Actually the DPA wasn't originally a design criteria.  All the powers were balanced around Recharge Time basically.   

 

When Back Alley Brawler started to shave some of the animations they admitted as much.  

 

So any set that came out before Dual Blades / Dual Pistols may or may not be balanced for Animation time.  And if it is, it only sort of is because it had some animation shaving done.  The amount this could be done was limited.    

 

Originally it wasn't an issue.  Since no one had the Recharge necessary to build these DPA based attack chains. 

 

 

[kelly Rocket]

30 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Actually the DPA wasn't originally a design criteria.  All the powers were balanced around Recharge Time basically.   

 

When Back Alley Brawler started to shave some of the animations they admitted as much.  

 

So any set that came out before Dual Blades / Dual Pistols may or may not be balanced for Animation time.  And if it is, it only sort of is because it had some animation shaving done.  The amount this could be done was limited.    

 

Originally it wasn't an issue.  Since no one had the Recharge necessary to build these DPA based attack chains. 

 

 

I wrote "DPS/DPA" deliberately because even the DPS (balance for recharge alone) isn't anything close to balanced.

[Haijinx]

10 minutes ago, kelly Rocket said:

I wrote "DPS/DPA" deliberately because even the DPS (balance for recharge alone) isn't anything close to balanced.

It wasn't really DPS.  Just recharge.

 

So two scrapper attacks with 5 second recharge did the same damage.  Even if one animates in 1 second and the other 3.   Making the DPS a lot different, since they recharge after the animation. 

 

Its harder to see it now since in the effort to improve some under performing sets some base damage was buffed.

 

 

 

[Haijinx]

Should add that damage was only balanced by recharge by AT.

 

The between AT balance wasn't so much a thing since there was no proliferation.  

 

Only blasters and defenders shared damage focused sets 

[William Valence]

10 hours ago, kelly Rocket said:

I know they claim to have had a formula and intended for everything to be equivalent, but I don't believe it for a microsecond.

The best part is you don't have to believe it. The numbers were exposed to the players. The devs didn't tell us what the formulas were, the players figured them out. If there was no formula we wouldn't have had the threads in the old forums nor the thread in this forum about it. Whether you believe it or shove your head in the sand is irrelevant.

 

10 hours ago, kelly Rocket said:

The quite vast disparities in the DPS (Let alone DPA) between sets can't be explained by anything other than deliberate design. Especially when you consider that those gaps have been tightened over the years, by people who actually were trying to reduce the DPS/DPA gaps, and they're still this big. And they do generally line up such that powers with no secondary effects do better damage than those with secondary effects.

Do me a favor. Show me. Don't just make a claim and assert it as true. If you're not just blowing smoke you should be able to demonstrate the "quite vast disparities". So which sets and which powers do not line up appropriately in the Damage, recharge, and endurance triangle? What damage scale do they do, and what damage scale should they do? I'll be nice and give an example:

 

Fire Blast -> Fire Blast T2: Recharge time is 4s -> damage calculation: 0.2 * (0.8 * 4 + 1.8) -> Damage scale: 1 with blaster ranged damage mod -> 62.56 

Energy Blast -> Power Bolt: Recharge time is 4s -> damage calculation: 0.2 * (0.8 * 4 + 1.8) -> Damage scale: 1 with blaster ranged damage mod -> 62.56

 

 

 

[Rathulfr]

[Captain Powerhouse]

9 hours ago, kelly Rocket said:

There are now. There weren't originally--which is what I was discussing. And furthermore, even with those formulae different sets have WILDLY different DPS/DPA potential.

It has always existed, and the reason DPS/DPA potential wildly defeers despite it existing is precisely that the formula was never adjusted to account for animation time.

 

The formula makes a power that recharges in 5 seconds and has a zero cast time will do the same damage as one that takes 5 seconds to recharge and casts in 5 seconds, even if both powers will end up having drastically different DPA.

 

The formula has always been extremely flawed, but its too intertwined in the game to change it without completely changing how this game feels and plays.

 

Once developers realized the mistake, the best they ever did over time was play around with recharge times to get the desired DPS out of a given power.

[ZeeHero]

Knockback is a feature which should be optional for every set given the disruption it causes in groups. this is not really difficult to see.

[Megajoule]

And if I opt to have it, you'll kick me?

[ZeeHero]

6 minutes ago, Megajoule said:

And if I opt to have it, you'll kick me?

Only if you use it to disrupt the group like at least half the people who take it do- and dont attempt to use it wisely even when asked.

 

Don't get me wrong, knockback is an essential part of a super hero setting. its not a super punch if it cant knock the bad guy through a building or across the block. However the way its implemented right now makes knockback nothing but a annoyance. Until this basic mechanical flaw is addressed knockback needs to always be OPTIONAL.

[Neogumbercules]

5 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

It has always existed, and the reason DPS/DPA potential wildly defeers despite it existing is precisely that the formula was never adjusted to account for animation time.

 

The formula makes a power that recharges in 5 seconds and has a zero cast time will do the same damage as one that takes 5 seconds to recharge and casts in 5 seconds, even if both powers will end up having drastically different DPA.

 

The formula has always been extremely flawed, but its too intertwined in the game to change it without completely changing how this game feels and plays.

 

Once developers realized the mistake, the best they ever did over time was play around with recharge times to get the desired DPS out of a given power.

 

 

Well since you're here, what kind of thoughts do you have on the premise of the topic in terms of giving players an option to globally convert kb to kd? 

[Rathulfr]

1 hour ago, ZeeHero said:

Knockback is a feature which should be optional for every set given the disruption it causes in groups. this is not really difficult to see.

It is optional: if you don't want knockback, don't play a knockback set.

Or, optionally use Overwhelming Force and/or Sudden Acceleration IOs to convert KB-to-KD.

The question isn't whether or not to knockback: the question of this topic is whether or not to change the KB-to-KD proc of Overwhelming Force to a global, instead.

Based on the discussions so far, there seems to be a lot of support for the idea.  However, there is also some objection to the idea, based on some sound and valid reasoning.

Finally, the HC team has indicated that they have no plans (at this time) to make the suggested change.  It might merit further discussion, but that seems to be the current status.

 

[Haijinx]

They already have this on test.  Seems odd if they have no plans to implement it. 

 

The main objection seems to boil down to -

*Some small set of people prefer knockback to Knockdown. 

*They don't want to be ostricised /cajoled / etc to use KD instead.  

 

 

 

[Vanden]

5 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

They already have this on test.  Seems odd if they have no plans to implement it. 

They don't have it on test. Maybe one of the other servers does, but not Homecoming.

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

They don't have it on test. Maybe one of the other servers does, but not Homecoming.

Interesting.  The second post in this thread said they did.

 

I thought Justin was Homecoming Test?

 

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

Interesting.  The second post in this thread said they did.

 

I thought Justin was Homecoming Test?

Leandro is a more authoritative source on the topic than whoever made that post, I'd say.

[Haijinx]

Kay missed that. 

 

Well that does change things.

 

I saw that on another thread too I believe, so a bad rumor.  

Edited September 2, 2019 by Haijinx
grammar

[MunkiLord]

This thread has inspired me to create Team Liability, an Energy/Storm Corruptor. Clearly I'm going to slot for extra KB.

[Rathulfr]

20 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

This thread has inspired me to create Team Liability, an Energy/Storm Corruptor. Clearly I'm going to slot for extra KB.

I made an Energy/Energy Blaster named Knockback King with the intention of slotting for KB.  But then I got distracted by another alt.  Maybe we should team up? 😊

[Rathulfr]

22 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Interesting.  The second post in this thread said they did.

 

I thought Justin was Homecoming Test?

 

The nefarious "They": one of the worst villains ever.

[MunkiLord]

23 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

I made an Energy/Energy Blaster named Knockback King with the intention of slotting for KB.  But then I got distracted by another alt.  Maybe we should team up? 😊

And once we hit 50 exclusively run Master TF!

[RubberDougie]

On 8/28/2019 at 7:27 PM, esotericist said:

I think the fact overwhelming force can be used to add knockdown to a power that previously didn't have it is an important thing to emphasize.

 

Someone might want to be using it to add KD to a power without losing the ability to have knockback on the rest of their character.

That's how I use it!  I put it in my AOE immob and my t1 pets!