Erratic1

Don't flatter yourself, as I am responding to multiple people and following the thread. But I think I have established your lack of seriousness here, what with asserting 9 more hp is a meaningful survivability bump over what other ATs can get doing the same splitting of ATOs. I'm fine with ignoring you from here on out.

Brute base health at level 50 is 1499.3 vs 1338.6 for Scrappers and 1204.8 for Stalkers. 3% of those values is 45, 40, and 36. I am not sure how one can claim the suckiness of the Brute procs is made up for by getting 9 more hp at level 50 than a Stalker, or at least do so seriously.

You're saying Brutes are fine because they don't suck in 100% of the game, just 85% of it and being pedantic as goes what Maelwys wrote? So long as Brutes do better than a Tanker or a Scrapper on even one powerset, apparently they are fine as you judge things.

Brute's Fury gives the exact same bonus at 2 and 3 pieces slotted as Scrapper's Strike. Stalker's Guile differs on 2pc by giving Accuracy instead of health. Not seeing how Brutes are ahead. Unrelenting Fury gives +Damage (to the AT which gets the least benefit from such) and a pathetic amount of Regen, compared to +Recovery and +Accuracy for Critical Strikes and Assassin's Mark. Definitely Brutes aren't ahead there. So where precisely are Brutes coming out ahead?

It was Brutes in far more restricted circumstances exceeding Scrapper damage that got the entire Brute AT nerfed. Trapdoor is geared towards area damage, so it is looking at part of the picture. Fury improves DoTs, so Brutes have an edge with burning/bleeding/etc. Pylon is the more single-target focused one. If you are suggesting being the masters of DoTs makes everything fine....

And to make it perfectly clear, it was because certain builds of Brutes, buffed to their gills on a team, could sometimes exceed Scrapper damage that Brutes had to be nerfed (Brutes have NEVER had Tanker survivability) but somehow it is completely fine Brutes be far worse off now. Hmmm...scale secondary effects by Fury (might want to exclude KB...even if it would be hilarious punting mobs across zones). Scrappers/Stalkers are damage kings, Tankers are survivability and area damage gods, and Brutes the lords of debuffs.

And of course, your argument would have applied to men being ahead in the first place....Women's position hasn't change, so why should it? They should be perfectly okay staying where they are. Can we be done with the defamation though indirect suggestion of sexism?

Then feel free to advocate for then...IN THE KHELDIAN subforum. Do you ever, you know, talk about Brutes in this subforum? Again, the only time you post here is to bring up other ATs.

This is a lot like saying, "Everyone else is getting paid more but your salary stayed the same, so you're okay." You and Tidge both ignore the reality and objectivity of actual, documented performance. Again, there it this (and more but not in the mood to link every indicator): Yeah, role protection. Everyone other melee AT had to have a defined role and Brutes got nerfed while other AT were buffed. And you're here agreeing with someone who literally only ever comes to the Brute forums to naysay any changes to Brutes--an AT they admit they do not like and treat their posts as somehow objective. Someone who in fact, when asked to describe what would prove to them Brutes are underperforming avoided giving any answer.

I think a more survivable Brute would have better clear speeds. Some of what shows a Brute down is recovery from being less survivable.

The issue between Brutes and Tankers is, to my view, minorly related to ATO. Changes to Tankers were not based on their ATOs but universally to the AT. Yes, Brutes have crap ATOs, but that is its own issue. If Scrappers and Stalkers can exist in the same role space, why do Brutes have to be excluded from any niche? Have Fury buff Brute defense/resistance variably as it does damage with a max target matching...say 40% of the difference between the current gulf between Brute and Tanker base values. Brutes would deal no more damage but would be a bit better at surviving and hence able to actually engage in, "Go, go, go!" play.

I could get behind this pretty easily except for one thing... It would reward those who campaigned for so long to put Brutes in the position they are in now. Toss in something to satisfy my spite...say removing Tankers inherently improved defense/resistance values (so they have to build to cap like Brutes do now) and lowering Scrapper/Stalker damage (let them build Fury to get back to what they have now) and I'm down for it. It has the beauty of preserving some of what makes Brutes what they are. Tanker fans shouldn't have a problem. Don't they they routinely offer their survivability is overkill? And Scrappers/Stalkers would keep crits.

Ston has done that across three different threads with plenty of statistics. You hand-waved the results away. So I want the parameters of results you won't dismiss for not being content you don't play regularly.

It's not about Trapdoor--you play that once in accessing Incarnate powers. Its about what it demonstrates. The question is what would convince you? Given you only show us in the Brute section to naysay Brute problems, I'm genuinely curious.

You don't play Brutes by your own admission, so how would you know? Oh.... ...its because you have an unsubstantiated view of how people think. I play all the melee classes, as do others...as did Ston. Your resistance to the actuality of where things are....well, I could suggest, in keeping with what your supposition on motivations, that someone who didn't play an AT admits to disliking it calling the AT fine is self-serving. But I will stick to the facts brought to the table--you don't have the background to support the assertion. It would be like me commenting on Kheldians, which I have yet to really get into and making claims of their performance/balance. So far as I can tell, you only show up in the Brute subforum to oppose the notion of Brutes being not well off: https://forums.homecomingservers.com/search/?&q=Brute&type=forums_topic&quick=1&author=Tidge&nodes=22&search_and_or=or&sortby=relevancy

If the average player is not using IOs then Brutes are even worse off because they do not have anywhere near the survivability of Tankers, so the Tankers not only deal more area damage, but they are also staying in combat longer and generating xp faster. I had noticed my Tankers being able to increase the level of their missions sooner than my Brutes some time ago, but only relatively recently did it occur to me to instead leave the level alone and simply up the team size (while soloing). More guys hitting as hard versus same number of guys hitting harder in theory has a balance point, but the gradations on team size are finer than the level size. And of course you do not have to do any herding, the spawns all give you more targets to bring down at once. I recently finished leveling a Bio/DB Tanker, who because of the increased resistance/defense values plays in Offensive stance and has plenty of AoE attacks and he zipped through the levels. My current Fire/Claws Tanker--perpetual Follow Up +Dmg bonus combined with Burn, and area attacks, likewise melts groups that a Brute would have to take time recovering health for engaging. Better single target damage for a Brute? I guess if you're fighting a series of single targets that is wonderful, and certainly this past weekend while doing ToT I had some eye-watering hits while playing my EM/Electric Brute and buffed by a Marine Controller...but teams are focused on getting the mission/TF/trial done sooner rather than later and solo, well, if you want to spend more time getting a clear so you can occasionally see higher number single-target hits, be my guest.

You should. It is not really remotely open for discussion: Those are the times for Trapdoor per Ston. The lower the bar, the faster the finish. Trapdoor favors dealing area damage. We used to have another thread where people would post their times and Brutes were not beating Tankers. Per the graph above, using Titan Weapons, Dual Blades, Psionic Melee, Staff Fighting, or Broadsword Brutes come out ahead. Most of those are considered crap powersets. And for the powersets which are good (the left end), Brutes are not remotely close.

Bio has fantastic survivability. You just have to know when to use its three click powers. If Bio were any better, it would be nerfed (something some already think should happen). As for the visuals, even on minimal setting there are some. Best you can do there is color to not stand out against costume. As for why Brutes, Scrappers/Stalkers don't get Super Strength, Tankers don't get Energy Aura, and damage auras are best on Brutes. Also offensive powersets which are more single target focused are better on Brutes than Tankers.

What @Hero Star said is what I have noticed as goes its behavior. If the power does not recharge during the FF proc its recharge time reverts to what it would have been had FF not proc'd.

@Pepinillo, As goes Hasten, there is a point where you are close enough to perma that being a little short does not usually make too much difference. If being a little short allows you to shore up some other aspect of character performance, I would say go for it. Endurance was not a concern. Between Energy Drain and Energize you should be good for endurance. I just don't see what Boxing is bringing to the table. You make a good point on the impact of Rage Crashing.

So every melee in the game needs to go get Combat Teleport on the off chance there is an Energy Blast user around who cannot find something else to target?

As it appears to me... You've got Hasten toggled on but it is not actually perma. Your offensive powers all have pretty low accuracy values. You could fix this via your alpha slot, not proc-bombing, or taking Focused Accuracy (which you could take instead of Boxing). You have no +To Hit. At the very least I would place Kismet: +6% Accuracy (which is really To-Hit) in one of your defensive powers. You have very nice Defense values, but keep in mind Energy Drain boosts Def. You might be able to save some slots or gain other bonuses by trading down some of your existing Defense values. On the build I have for me (not played near enough) SS/EA Brutes the numbers look like: Sidera - Super Strength - Energy Aura.mbd Lower defense numbers (cannot have everything) but even on target hit by Energize brings her defenses up to a nice value. She has perma-Hasten and is capable of double stacking Rage (permanently if she times Energy Torrent right and gets a proc off Force Feedback).

Now go do it at level 19.

What a person finds fun is what THEY should be doing, but it is not a way to objectively view things and make an comparison of performance across ATs. I've had fun on objectively underpowered combinations, but that fun does not change the actual underpowered nature of the combo.