Haijinx

You'd have to look at the first post in the thread, there's a formula. The best brute TW/Bio time i actually saw posted was 450. The 700 for scrapper was more of a top score, more typical was 550 to 650 range. Some have no videos or anything so no idea how real they are. After a certain speed in the 500+ range though, the pylon dies so fast its regen tick timing pulses skew the results making it less accurate. Thus 500 is probably more accurate than 700. You'll notice the really fast times seem to have big 100+ dps swings between attempts. This could be why. There's also a possibility of some pve damage leaking in that has been mentioned.

Id have to look ive seen people claim 600ish on TW but i never read that posted. There was a 380 BIO_TW tanker attempt though. There are controllers in the 700s also.

There are scrapper TW/Bio getting near 700 Next best scrapper ive seen is RAD/BIO in the upper 500s Then there are a lot of 400 to 500 bio scrappers Stalkers seem to be able to get upper 500s with Street Justice. All of the top times for melee are BIO.

Most melee sets are smashing or lethal though.

Em most definitely needs buffed. It needed buffed before TW even existed. Its only good on blasters. There's already a thread for that.

By aggro stealing in this context i mean brutes who steal aggro from each other, reducing fury. Tankers holding the aggro instead would also reduce the brutes fury, which was Seph's concern.

Its hard to balance around a dynamic like fury. You have to assume some base value. The aggro stealing is already an issue with all these 4+ brute teams.

Worse at ST damage. Worse at AOE damage vs small groups of baddies especially when clustered. Better at AOE damage vs large groups of baddies. Especially when they are spread out.

Except the tanker isnt going to be equal to brutes in damage. Just less far behind. Tankers will be better then brutes at AOE damage where there are lots of targets though. Brutes get to bump into scrapper damage territory too ...

The farmer arguments are dumb. This special build is slightly better than that special build vs this cherry picked custom content. The brutes aren't losing anything, they can still farm as good as they do on the live servers. If some tankers can now do it slightly faster... kay?

Ive played MA on both stalker and scrapper at 50. The stalker is much better ST. Its not even close on a full team with stalker atos slotted.

If i were to advocate fixing EM by making whirling hands a higher scale with a 15 foot radius. Then suggest turning the build up into a toggle that gave +20 to hit and +80 damage. Wouldn't a lot of people decide that was OP?

Basically exactly the point. Resist sets were barely affected, while defense sets were getting hammered. Is part of the problem myopia? People having trouble seeing past their own characters?

People never let dots finish though, so the team will hit them immediately with other attacks. Heck i never even let my own dots finish, id just hit them again. So you go into an overkill situation. 1.6 is a nice fast DOT though at least.

All those dots would def improve pylon times, but you wouldn't much feel them in team play. That could help explain "some" of why the set doesn't feel as ST awesome (at least with no real +recharge) as it supposedly should. Also an AV or Pylon is best case for momentum too, least AVs that stand and fight. Of course Bio might be multiplying the higher numbers making it a big part of this.

I'm curious, how much of the "non formula" damage is in the DOT? I don't yet agree it should be nerfed, but removing the DOT aspects would hurt real play less than av/pylon times.

Im not sure what is meant by "messing up" Hitting build momentum at the wrong time?

This is not needed. Combat uptime is already better than it was at release, and compares fine with newer team oriented games.

/jranger

The data does support it though. Only punch and jab are underpowered compared to other old school tanker sets, and its literally because they are fast recharging attacks. SS trades a ST attack for hurl, which is bad. But so does Stone. Rage is why SS never got looked at for DPA, its why they never fixed jab and punch. Double rage just made it even less likely. And yeah ive played SS tankers and brutes both before and now. Without rage the set is pretty meh. Double stacked rage with footstomp and KOB is awesome though, which is of course why everyone is clinging onto Double rage so hard.

Street Justice doesn't get foot stomp. It also doesn't get a full damage build up outside of stalkers.

Some want the "crashless" rage back when Double Stacked. (Def debuff) Others want the crashless rage back And they want the -dmg gone. This is literally a debate that goes back over a decade. Lol.

The numbers adjustments to dpa to older sets were rather limited, as was the animation shaving. One set that did benefit a lot was MA, which also now has many of its ST attacks outside the original recharge vs damage scheme. A Quick check, compare the base values to broadsword, they are a touch higher. My impression so far is outside of IOs TW is nothing stellar ST. But it seems like its advantages will benefit a lot with better IOs Probably moreso than other melee sets, thus this whole arguement.

Also we have to keep in mind these base numbers were established with DPA in mind, since by that point DPA actually was considered. Something you don't see on older sets. The DPA changing mechanic makes it a weird teeter totter though.

I don't think he compared baseline powers to controllers. He was comparing fast pylon times.