Galaxy Brain

Mentioning things that *need* procs to succeed sounds like a por que no los dos if I've ever heard it 😉

One thing we should define is: What is a proc build? Im not sure there are many people who are literally slamming as many procs as possible in every power possible, but I can see people pushing 2-3 per power. However, I bet 1 per damage power and a dedicated proc-monster wouldn't be out of the question.

@BlackHearted, as what @Super Atom and @ScarySai said, it really depends on what you are aiming to be optimal at. A Marlin may be the optimal build for a fish in the ocean, but it won't fare well in the Amazon River despite it being water and even connected to the ocean. A bull shark may not be as amazing as the Marlin all things considered, but it can excel in both the Ocean and Amazon river. Which fish is more optimal here?

I think there is a key disconnect here. Yes, in a group where you all know each other and what you all bring to the table to bounce off one another you can definitely squeeze more performance out by not "wasting" stats that are covered by allies. However, if you are NOT in that scenario then you are at the mercy of the odds of folks showing up that can shore up your holes, in which case the small hit to max performance potential will be most likely sacrificed for more self sufficiency, making that character optimal for the scenario of random teaming as more often they may be more successful than the hyper-specialized one.

When talking speedies, do people build for specific encounters / tasks, or are there more generalized teams that speed everything with the same exact character makeup?

Just out of curiosity, what do you usually build for? I've tried expanding out to some oddball builds like as many +Heal procs as possible on a character and the like before 🙂

Shh, we're supposed to stay hidden.

Dev Data does not always = Player Data, you should know based on your PvP experience there 🙂

This too! Look at the variety of other non-damage proc options. They're almost all "bad" because they do not compete with dakka. Edit: The only ones that do are things like Knockdown (due to being a purple AoE proc, and some odds/ends), harsh debuffs (more dakka usually), and some of the "Critical" control options which I feel should be in each control type (+1 mag hold, Contagious confuse). Stuff like chance to immob / slow / are just not useful in their current states unless they were treated more like a true "unique".

This is my biggest concern. For some, the appeal of being "Super" and steamrolling everything solo can be fun, but for most that is only fun for so long (like punting Hellions... nobody *just* does that). A big deal for a lot of players is the feeling that they made the "Wrong Choice" when it comes to builds, sets, or even AT's which gets exasperated by the ways many characters "Become Super", which in turn can make the experience boring for some when they get there. We can try to bring everyone up to the same level (insert syndrome.gif), but that may just lead to the same problem only exaggerated. While the "wrong choice" is no longer as big an issue, it becomes a problem of "well, everything plays the same and I'm not invested anymore..."

I have to agree that this falls into the "sus / power needs a look" category as BU / Aim just so happen to have the perfect PPM for this.

Not trying to make anyone seem like a hypocrite, but I do state why I run tests a certain way which is then met with "this test is invalid because you did not do XYZ other things", which leads to be a case of "well what about this thing?" whenever it is brought up. I try to strip as many variables away as possible so that it highlights what is being tested given such variables can often be hard to measure repeatedly. As for the timing, the best time is now so that there is solid data for the devs to work off of when the time comes. The horses are in the stable waiting to see what kind of cart will weight them down.

@America's Angel , as I have stated before, you give me the parameters and I'll run the tests / crunch the numbers. It seems that for anything that is presented there is some whataboutsim that "throws the whole thing out" be it inspirations, certain build options (which is why I strip it down to the bare essentials), or even that Player A and Player B may approach something in a different order, it may be best that we come up with something agreed upon as "ok, this is the point of reference". Also, I'd be happy to work with the high-level people you mention if you want to get them involved as well.

Which CC procs, are they used in conjunction with Divine Avalanche + the reliable KU power katana has? More genuinely curious as in my experience there have not been many that really "add" the the survival rate over more dakka when combined with personal defense / attacks that already have some mez component! Also, ouch you found my plan to drive everyone away from the game I love 😮 Look, when I post stuff I want to get info out there given there is a lot of anecdotes being tossed around and my only goal is to give clarity to those things. "Procs make builds way better!" Ok, how much better? Which procs have which effect? "X set is better than Y set!" Ok, why / how is it better? Oh, it is better in a pylon test but what about in A/B/C other thing? If said results show something people don't like... well, that to me is a win as it sheds light on what we can do to improve the game and make things more fun, not destroy what already is! For every At / Set / Etc that greatly benefits from procs / the current meta, there is another on the opposite end that simply does not have the foundation to do the same. In my point of view, it is not so much about taking away from the things that currently "abuse" the system, so much as allowing everyone relatively equal access to "abuse" it. Then again, in order to do that the ceiling may need to be trimmed down some in order to expand the walls.

Double post to clarify what I believe the problem to be: 1) Ease of access to IOs in general, esp the "good" ones, has thrown a big wrench in what is "expected" by those in the know, which also happens to be a bigger population than before thanks to it being 2021 with Reddit, Discord, FB, etc, all able to much more efficiently share tips and tricks. 2) Not all procs / uniques are "equal" in terms of slotting potential or what they do. When comparing say, a chance to Immobilize to a Damage proc.... damage wins, especially since the former is usually on something not as universal. 3) Many procs directly feed into Damage Procs in particular, of note are +Rech and -Res procs making them fire more and hit harder. Ally buffs, Temp powers, Inspirations, or even just set bonuses can also "cover" what is lost for many powers that accept a lot of procs that further feeds into them becoming "reliable" instead of "gambles". 4) As noted on point 2, the distribution of certain IO's is not exactly equitable which funnels many people into the damage route, which does cause balance concerns when it blurrs the strengths of AT's / powersets. Combine all of these and you get meta-defining/shifting trends.

One of the first lines there states "we are using inspirations" which throws everything out the window as with enough candy you can overcome anything. It is not a valid comparison to say "oh, this thing that is part of a build is balanced/overcome by consumables" since for 99% of people those are X factors. If you chew enough purples/oranges/reds/etc, there is 0 need for a majority of things you'd actually slot for. While yes, inspirations are a part of the game and you can store them via Email / etc for when you need them before an encounter, as designed they were meant to be limited to your insp slots / random drops / occasional splurge at a store (usually the hosp) if you're in a pickle. They are not meant to be something that you should be 100% reliant on all the time in significant amounts, unlike your character's build which is meant to be your foundation. I can get building to within 1 purple of soft cap as that is something more reliable, but the bullet on "its not accurate to say X compared to Y because it doesn't include inspirations" is way too variable to account for. For the specific topic of Procs on Defenders compared to Corruptors, in general Defenders get more bang out of them thanks to their higher buff/debuff numbers allowing them to more easily slot personal non-damage stats on top of procs being the same damage regardless of AT, which combined can make defenders more attractive than Corruptors in that regard where the procs can bridge the gap while keeping their support advantages. This is not universal as some sets still greatly benefit from Scourge, but it still appears to be a pervasive opinion. To your next point, you then go on to say that Procs are a non issue because in order to get the most out of them you need to use insps (OR, outside buffs from allies which are basically the same thing when you boil it down to +Stats). I am confused by this take as it seems you are usually pro-everything (Temps, Boosts, Insps) which by this statement would lead to Procs being dominant given you can use all sorts of X-factor things to circumvent the lost slotting bits. I 100% agree here tho! A lot of people do not see the forest for the trees when it comes to procs in that it's not just "Procs" that are the issue. Its the ability of WHAT can be procced and to what extent, the PPM formula in relation to the types of powers that benefit the most, ally buffs, etc that all feed into it. The issue is not so much that procs exist, but more that certain sets and powers can WILDLY benefit from them like Infrigidate making Cold Dom have a T3 blast, or Epic Holds surpassing most ST attacks likewise. To me its not even an issue of people loading up everything they can with procs (which 100% comes with a cost) but more that you can have a select few proc-bomb powers on a character and go above and beyond. For the note about data gathered, that is why I linked that post in particular. In that run of testing I pitted an assortment of procs in isolation against each other to measure their impact across a fairly generic build (BS/WP scrapper) where we have a known baseline on SO enhancement. The missions were ran multiple times per slotting option and kept all the baseline values per power as they were with generics, with the addition of the procs which should be very easy to do as 6-slotting a set that include a proc often goes beyond what you could generically slot in terms of values anyway. Compared to straight debuffs, mez procs, and even the unique +Survival IO's, simply slotting 1 damage proc per power lead to more personal safety for that build where they took noticeably less incoming heat due to faster clears, even moreso when 2 damage procs per power were used. Of course, you can combine all these and be even better as each was done in isolation but it was far from a "proc monster" type of build I would assume most people think of when the term is used. To me, that points to Damage Procs being often just better than most other types of procs you could slot which ends up being... I guess kinda boring? Damage procs also vastly outnumber other proc types and are often flat damage which is another "meh" factor, which doesn't cut directly into performance but it does sour the IO system a bit when it boils down to "Slot bonuses, and then slap damage procs on cus theyre better and let you kill faster thus be safer". As to the earlier point, stuff like Achilles / Self Defense IOs are amazing but they also allow you to leverage damage procs even better so to me its kind of a wash. The audience here can be misleading as TBQH these folks have a different view of balance. PvP is all about fierce competition and getting an edge on your opponent, if there is something that gives you said edge of course folks will clamor for it and tell naysayers to "get good and use it so you're on our level". Similarly, Speed Runners view game balance as such: If there is anything within "bounds" that allows you to go faster, they will use it. if there were a proc that let you do 9999 damage under a certain condition? Hell yeah, clear times just got faster! That is not to say they do not care about balance, far from it especially with the PvP crowd + Speedrun categories requiring parameters. Its just that they may have a very particular view on what balance means given what they do. In this instance, it was Seismic Smash on a Dominator which was used as an example for how even a high-calibur power can be loaded up with Procs and have a net positive on a high-damage AT. As mentioned, in isolation it does give things up but if you have buffs from Set Bonuses, Other IO's like FF "chaining" into it, or even just Inps/Team mates to cover holes it leads to the power being better than if you were to traditionally slot it, with the CAVEAT that you can patch those holes. However, patching the holes can be relatively easy due to a variety of factors, all you need to do is make sure the procced powers are able to reliably use their procs thanks to everything feeding into each other, not just soley rely on the procced out power to do its thing. This is why Proc-Bombs are an issue to me when it comes to stuff like Holds / Infrigidate / etc. They are often either part of already powerful sets that happen to get an extra boost thanks to a few powers they can leverage being proc bombs, on top of certain sets not being able to "join in on the fun" or even certain AT's being disproportionately boosted by them compared to peers which can blur their lines at higher lvl to where one is favored over the other through no merit/fault of their own. While yes, there is a lot of anecdotal evidence thrown about, when you look at the "a lot of" part that is cause for concern for whatever the subject matter is. On top of results that have been posted, the general complexity of how they work, the EASE OF ACCESS to them being a factor nobody talks about (this was legit a balance on live, as weird as it is), there is something to all this.

Heya folks! Not able to read all of this but, if you want results here you go: That whole thread dives more into it than just procs, but I can sum up what I think the problem is. Nobody thinks that 1-2 procs in a given power is bad. The issue is where certain powers can LOAD up with procs while others cannot (lightning rod vs savage leap) as well as the relative impact procs have on certain ATs over others (defender vs Corruptor). Proc *bombs* can be a big problem where there are a bunch at once + they are relatively reliable beyond what they are intended to be.

Great replies! Something that stood out tho... it seems like Opportunity isn't on anyone's radar?

I've noticed a lot of negativity surrounding Sents lately, and I think it's time to turn that around! For me, a Sentinel was the very first thing I made on HC as it was a brand-new AT. A mix of Ranged and Armor with tweaks to both? It sounds like a blast! Combined with the big, flashy target you can apply it makes for a rather unique character compared to the rest. How about you?

Smashing is much more commonly resisted than all but Toxic and Lethal damage, however when Psy is resisted its often in wumbo sized portions.

This is poignant. I feel similarly, tho it is sort of a see-saw. Yes, concept powers can be fun... but then they can quickly lose their fun factor when another power is just flat better that you have at your disposal. Or, a method of using said power is just better (3 slot rech and keep rage perma), or other comparable sets/powers do your concept more efficiently to the point of subverting your concept (compare TWs effectiveness vs SS where you could conceptually say you use SS to wield said weapon). At times I see it as a sort of weird irony where the sheer amount of choice and conceptual wiggle room we have ends up actually biting certain choices in the butt.

Of course! You can make anything match via a theme and some imagination, though the actual "matches" are a little different 🙂

Many of us pick characters with a thematic pairing like fire/fire, elec/elec, and so on. Personally, my dark/dark controller is a hoot to play with SO many options to toss out spawn to spawn in a team! Its one of those thematic pairs that layers so much down that its powerful even at base level. What about your favorite matched pairs?

@ people arguing against more easily spreadable / accessible ST buffs: How should it compete with sets that give nearly as good buffs, but team-wide and can be perma?

The interview process for minions is brutal