FoulVileTerror

SO! It's been coming up a lot on the forums again lately. That lovely old nugget of allowing Heroes in Redside zones and Villains in Blueside zones. (my own post on the subject from a while back: https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/19655-weekly-discussion-53-how-to-increase-villain-population/page/7/?tab=comments#comment-222758 ) It has a lot of merit, but it's also probably prohibitively complicated with the current development resources. All the same, there's no reason not to come up with ideas, share them, and put them through the rigours of critique. Please be mindful: This isn't one of the threads to argue the merit or feasibility of unrestricted access to Zones regardless of Alignment. There are plenty of other threads where that topic is still fresh and ripe for debate. THIS thread is meant to address one particular idea and its potential merits or flaws in a hypothetical world where the unrestricted access is assumed to have happened. A frequent complaint/concern is the complication posed by allowing characters who are, by all narrative rights, violently opposed to one another in to the same space. In places like Rikti War Zone or Pocket D, the justification is that there is a higher power at work (Vanguard and DJ Zero, respectively) who enforce a non-aggression stance, and have justification for allowing these enemies a space to either work together or socialize together. Cool! Although that justification is really flimsy in Cimerora . . . but it's there too. AND places like Dark Astoria and The Abyss have the narrative justification that the area is plagued by a threat so severe that only idiots would fight one another while in that zone . . . eh, it also doesn't meet full muster from a narrative standpoint, BUT in all these cases it's important to facilitate a productive gameplay experience for everyone present, so we let it slide. But if we start allowing Heroes in to Port Oakes, or (heavens to Betsy!) let a Villain run around in Kings Row . . . well, that's REALLY pushing it. In my previous post on this subject, I mentioned that we would need to come up with a new narrative justification to allow for such a change to the gameplay, or introduce new gameplay elements to function within the existing narrative. However! Any new gameplay element would need to be meet several criteria to pass muster. It would need to be non-disruptive to regular gameplay that has existed since the inception of the game. It would need to provide appropriate risk and reward on par with existing gameplay. It would need to respect the players' rights to choose how and where they engage in PvP. It would need to be functional, predictable, and meet an expectation of fair play. And it would also need to be enjoyable! To that (significantly preambled) end, I propose: Report Incursion! "If you spot an enemy player in your home territory, you may use this Power to flag them to the local authorities. Since such threats could be deceptively powerful, the local constabulary will deploy the appropriate response to neutralize or deter the threat." The idea is to give players in their native Zone an Inherent Power that can only be used on an invading player. This Power would trigger an Outdoor Ambush to seek out and attack the invader, much like the Longbow and PPD ambushes on Mayhem Missions. Now, of course, we'll need to bake some limitations in to this to ensure it doesn't become a tool for harassment. And, simultaneously, design it so it can be used to actively discourage harassment from the invader. So, first draft . . . - AoE (to report whole teams of invaders) - Max Targets 255 (maximum, even though the zone limit on players would make this functionally redundant right now, may as well not limit it as far as I can see) - Range 150', unenhanceable (sniper range, granting reporting players the opportunity to flag an invader from a distance in case said invader is moving at very high speeds) - Radius 30', unenhanceable (nice and big, so that those teams of invaders can all get flagged together) - Autohit (Defense/Elusivity shouldn't enter in to this, as the "attack" is like Surveillance or Power Analyzer) - Recharge 30 seconds, unenhanceable (so that a player doesn't have to wait too long before they use it again) - The target of this Power is then Flagged as "Reported" for the next 50 seconds, and is immediately targeted by seek-and-destroy Ambushers (PPD and/or Longbow against Villains in Blue Zones, and RIP and/or Arachnos against Heroes in Red Zones). These Ambusher NPCs are levelled and mobbed according to the target players' individual difficulty settings (so, yes. A large team who all have themselves set to +4/x8 who all get smacked by this Power at the same time could be in for a VERY rude awakening for their hubris). These Ambushers will also have absolutely NO WAY to target local players, so that if a Confuse Power is used by an Invader, there is no way to turn the police against the local players. - A Flagged target can not have the Report Incursion Power used on them while already Flagged. So, if they managed to defeat their Ambushers in 5 seconds, they've got 45 seconds of free time to kill. Alternatively, and the main reason for a 50 second Flagging period, if a player gets overwhelmed and -can't- beat their Ambushers in that time limit, it will at least give them the opportunity to consider retreat before another new Ambush is Flagged on to them.

Ah, but on Legacy you -did- still have . . . what? 300+? Although I suppose it's slightly encouraging to hear that HelBlaiz is such a contender here on Homecoming. The talent that player has for making really appeasing aesthetic decisions on character appearances. *performs the "chef's kiss" gesture* Now if only we could convince HelBlaiz to document the deep, deep well that is that character roster over on: https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/18342-list-of-character-lists/

I run Death From Belows solo all the time. Those enemies still show up as Arch-Villains, regardless of difficult settings. In fact, Death From Below has exactly the same spawns regardless of any difficulty settings, as far as I've seen.

So . . . thinking back to @BasherBot's Archetype Challenge, with roughly 3 hours to 50, that would reduce the earlier estimate someone gave of -18 years- with 12+ hours of gaming per day, down to only 2-and-change with a mere 8 hours of a gaming per day. Splitting that workload up to a team of 8 players, and they could get 'er done in just over three months. And 2 hours, 6 minutes, 2 seconds . . . a year and a half solo, or a month and change with a full team. Granted, that's still basing my numbers on the earlier 2116 combinations, which I may have botched, and will be constantly increasing with every new Set the Devs release. All the same, it looks a lot more achievable with @Lidunni's times there. . . . I still wouldn't do it. Power-levelling and racing isn't my personal bag. Hell, I've been playing since April 24th, but of my 140+ characters, the highest levels any of them have achieves are still sub-35, and less than five of those characters have made it there. If I -was- competing for anything, then it would be number of fully-fleshed out roleplay characters, and I think @Greycat and @HelBlaiz have me seriously licked in that category.

I do find it interesting that people seemed to develop the inclination to follow the same arbitrary rules for Slotting independent of one another. Really highlights how subtle influences can have a big impact when it comes to game design.

Nah. Was done on the Aeon Shard with the wonderful "Cheat" commands there. Character's still sitting there, and is likely to remain untouched until the next Test Shard purge. I'm not exactly inclined to actually -play- that abomination of a build. More than half of those Sets aren't even things I'd normally use under any conditions.

Was that a "Whoops, tautology!" joke, @ScarySai?

Counterproposal, @MTeague! Introduce Anti-Incarnate Content! When an Anti-Incarnate attempts to join a team with an Incarnate in it (or vice-versa), the Incarnate player receives a warning message: "Your Incarnate Powers will be nullified if you are in close proximity to the Anti-Incarnate: $player. Please consult your Team Leader to discuss potential options for your team if this is personally unacceptable." Likewise, the Team Leader would get a warning as well. And, just like Incarnate content, the Anti-Incarnate could "unslot" their Anti-Incarnate Powers to disable the nullification effect on the team. And and, just like almost everything in this game, the player would not be permanently locked in to being either an Incarnate or Anti-Incarnate; they just can't be both at the same time. In other words: Player Choice!

While being defeated in this game is not as grave as it is in other games, nor is it as encouraging/moralizing as it could be either . . . I meant punishing in regard to the learning curve and making mistakes. While the perspective of PvP players themselves are important, if you want to attract non-PvPers, you'll have to take a look at things from their point of view. Compared to the rest of City of Heroes, where "mistakes" are almost impossible to make, the PvP in City of Heroes is not anywhere nearly as forgiving. There are clear choices which lead to functional builds, and all the other choices which a player makes are, essentially, Wrong. It's night and day for the average player here. In PvE, where the game's accessibility is quite remarkable (at least by the standards of a 2004 MMO), a player can select any power and still be reasonably expected to be able to make their way through the play experience without overwhelming defeat. It's also a fairly gradual learning curve, assuming they're not getting Power Levelled to 50, of course. Meanwhile, in PvP; the options are twofold: Do it yourself, which is painful and frustrating because you have to experiment in an environment where there are absolutely merciless assholes who are "just playing the game the way it's made." (And, I know this is a touchy subject; but I'm not saying everyone who PvPs is an asshole. I'm just saying that existing assholes gravitate toward PvP because it provides an outlet for them to BE assholes.) or You have to learn from existing PvPers, which is painful and frustrating because . . . blessed be those of you who try your damnedest to encourage regular players . . . you're quite frequently PvPers foremost, and you love PvP (and that is 100% okay!), but the people you are trying to teach -aren't- . . . and the divide can be so severe that it just becomes not at all worth it for the non-PvPer to bother trying to bridge that gap. This game is amazing, and it has a lot to offer. But if we want PvP to appeal to the same kinds of players who the majority of the game appeals to already, then PvP is going to have to change to more closely resemble the game those non-PvPers engage in on a day to day basis. This is, at least, my personal take on the matter. I have to admit, I'm not a competitive person . . . but as a professional in the games industry, I've had to try to learn to think like PvPers. It's not easy for me. But . . . there you have it. The perspective of someone who is an outsider looking in, but as at least had the experience of being forced to learn a thing or two about "the other side" for career purposes. My way isn't necessarily the only way to solve this problem, but I hope it at least helps move the dialogue forward to a clear resolution and mutually beneficial solution.

That reminds me . . . I'd always want to implement a system that allows the player to choose any Set, like others have suggested . . . BUT also offer -three- options for how /many/ Sets! 1- Just a Primary: Slot Limit of 9 per Power. Pool Limit of 5 + 2 Origin + 1 Epic. 2- Primary and Secondary: Slot Limit of 7 per Power. Pool Limit of 4 + 1 Origin + 1 Epic. 3- Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary: Slot Limit of 5 per Power. Pool Limit of 3 + 1 Origin OR Epic.

Make it accessible and non-punishing. Soooo . . . not a whole lot, regrettably. We'd need a whole additional overhaul, and it would have to be VERY CAREFULLY done this time . . . with involvement from the whole community every step of the way, rather than organized behind closed doors and then revealed to overwhelming disappointment.

I Exemplar/Malefactor all the time. It's my preference to play this way. As such, I tend to only use Attuned Set IOs for all of my characters. I usually start slotting them up around level 17 when the majority of IOs open up for use.

OH! Shit. Sorry. Reading comprehension fail on my part, I guess. Whoopsie!

Would you have some kind of diminishing return, @Greycat? Or just straight-up "no limits on IO Set Bonus repeats?"

Well, it's not -quite- swimming, ney? It's jogging with the same animation as used while in the water. Which is also just jogging with a swimming animation anyway. The same effect can be reproduced with the base builder. I meant in terms of swimming as with a modification to the game physics where the fall rate would be modified to simulate the player-character and NPCs inside a liquid with a density high enough to reduce the fall-speed of gravity . . . which, as I understand it, is so deeply baked in to the engine code that it would require some creative work to unhinge it. Someone like Cipher or Number Six probably have a more informed opinion on that, though. I'm just playing rumour-monger on that particular piece of the code.

Using a critical analyse of the past as a means to improve the future is definitely ideal. But I've certainly seen people doing exactly what @Darmian is warning against too. It's not an enviable position to be in where one is making the decisions for a game with a community that are pretty heavily divided between conservation efforts, new-but-not-controversial additions, and outright radical alterations. And is precisely why I think a clearly delineated and publicly available design document/roadmap would be so immensely helpful. Clear direction can lead to clear focus for feedback.

@Sakura Tenshi, your idea for the instant-defeat of lower Rank enemies is pretty close to what I'd do with the Resolve mechanic, but I would include an aspect to it where extremely high Magnitude (from stacks of Controllers on a single target) would also eventually achieve the same result.

That's fine. Just wear extra layers of socks, and discard them as you walk.

The "Haha" isn't evil enough. Just imagine it emitting this sound: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGqwqxRF598&t=5s

You should bring Hug Toy to Everlasting, @EmmySky, and see if Softest Bumblebee is around in General Chat. They love to give hugs.

I'll agree to that, with the caveat that we -also- need more of the long-term content too. A little more of everything for everybody, no matter who they are.

Look upon my works, ye mighty; AND DESPAIR!

Ah, but Paragon City is where all the most villainous villains live, @Darkneblade! Would you become an even more villainous villain yourself if you took their home away from them, or would that make you a hero?

Radically overhaul the 3D asset and animation devtools for ease-of-use? Yeah. That's a good idea, @Kinestron!

Summer Blockbuster, under the Holiday Tab.