oldskool

It was good info, I don't think the proc info took away from the discussion. Dual Pistols is a neat set with its swap ammo that opens up so many proc options: Slow, defense debuff, knockback. Fair enough. Originally I asked about the 6th slot for Decimation: Chance to Build-Up in Red's build. I totally get the 5pc for the recharge, but the proc is 1 PPM. With 0 recharge reducers in Executioner's Shot that's something like 18% chance to trigger. With the default 60-ish% from the set, it drops to 11-12% chance to go off. YUK. So I haven't had a lot of love from that proc. I have had a few times where the stars have aligned, and I have had it go off with Gaussian's in Tactics. However the lack of control on the results just isn't my cup of tea. For more group debuff fun, Hail of Bullets can take the Gladiator's Fury -20% proc. I messed with this tonight, and works like a champ. I moved my Sentinel Dual Pistol build to largely a proc based one and took out a Pylon in around 6 minutes. That's just ranged attacks, no melee at all or even any Ancillary powers (I do have Caltrops). No procs had a range from 12 to 8 (was trying some configurations). I didn't turn on any Incarnates either. I relied on my endurance power in /Nin vs turning on Ageless. Plus I was a little sloppy here and there. I may be able to get it closer to 5 or 5.5 minutes. Procs are a hell of drug! Tried a few test missions where I can leverage even more -resist with this character since Piercing Rounds has the Annihilation Proc. I put Positron's in there (5pc no Range/Damage) and figure it to be around 42% chance to trigger the debuff or the energy damage. Some may think, wait, that's all 3 -20% procs and what your class can do. Isn't that overkill? There is no kill like overkill. Also, when I play I do not play to expect people to have optimized builds. So I try to make my characters as self contained as possible. So if I team with people that have these things, then well at least I can add time to debuff duration. ;) Otherwise, this character of mine can leverage 94.6% -resistance if all the procs can trigger which includes the innate (-5% resistance) and Opportunity (-20%). Reality it is more like a high uptime on -45% with spikes around -65%, but that ain't shabby for a class many like to discount as subpar. Anyway, now on to the other Dual Pistols guy I have and make sure it works they way I want. P.S., My Corruptor is still low enough that I am tempted to restart as a Defender for the bigger debuffs. I'm quite torn about it hence the reason I keep hanging around here. Plus, Red's builds are just great inspiration and fun reads. I loved the Huntsman one too. That was one of my favorite characters back in the day. That write-up makes me really consider if I want to keep my Crab or convert it to a Huntsman... or better yet, both (Huntsman with a backpack!). I also made a SR/MA tanker because of you, Red. It had so many good ideas, I just had to make one myself with my own preferences adding to it. You're a true hero! :)

Some how you have Shinobi-Iri at level 4 in the above and it becomes available at level 6. With Achilles' in Executioner, can you run Executioner->Suppressive->Pistols? I've refined my build a hell of a lot. I was doing some testing before Justin went down, but logged in tonight to try out a proposed change on some Pylons and a few missions. I have had extremely bad luck with Tactics and Gaussian's going off. I rarely ever see the Decimation: Build-up proc going off. I think Executioner's Shot has around a 14-16% to activate it with little to no recharge mods. Pistols was worse. So bleh... I have a better chance of 3 procs with 3.5 PPM going off in Executioner's Shot (18% I think?). Anyway, give some heavy procs a try. I swapped Pistols and Executioner's Shot to Thunderstrike 3pc and put procs in the other slots. Pistols gets the Toxic Javelin, Touch of Lady Grey, Shield Breaker (approx 30% chance for one to go off). Executioner's Shot gets Toxic Javelin (whatever it is called), Lady Grey, Achilles' Heel (approx 58% chance for one to go off). Since Executioner's Shot has a high base accuracy, I could probably put a Hami-O there instead plus an Explosive Strike proc for a 4th. I may try that, but the improvement is pretty slight so may be not. Suppressive is as above with Apocalypse and Unbreakable procs (45-48ish% chance to go off). Anyway the damage procs work like a champ! Hail of Bullets has a Gladiator's Fury for -20%. It fires frequently due to the cool down. I moved the ATO sets into Empty Clips (only 5pcs no proc) and all 6 Ward into Bullet Rain. I still keep Piercing Rounds because I like it, and it works to clean up AoE. If I get a moment to share it, I will.

The Scrapper forums confirmed Achilles' Heel and Annihilation functioning as separate sources in the Pylon thread, I believe, by using the aura in /Radiation that accepts both. Another -20% proc can fit into Hail of Bullets too. I'm assuming it works with Annihilation and Achilles', but I don't currently own it. So in summary, Dual Pistols can slot 3 sources of -20% on top of what you get in Piercing Rounds with standard ammo. Using Piercing Rounds and Achilles' Heel elsewhere gives you a lot of uptime on at least -40% with some spikes of high debuffing. Edit: Removed a lot of stuff that was more a response about procs generally. It was probably too much for this thread and the response.

I have seen a few Raziel inspired Psi-Melee characters. One person had a really really good costume plus the blue tint on the psi blade was spot on.

The Sentinel ATO's add range in their bonuses. This will widen the cones on Empty Clips and Piercing Rounds. Positron's Blast also has a Damage/Range which modifies it a little more. The Annihilation chance to debuff resistance is the only one from that set I'd use. Dual Pistols has a lot of opportunity to add 2 more sources of -20% on top of what Opportunity grants which is why I suggest it.

Pages 1 and 2 have variations on builds. Is there something more specific you'd like?

Two responses back to back about Stalker WP. I feel so alone in actually liking how Stalker WP plays differently than Scrapper/Tanker/Brute versions. I also prefer DB on Stalkers over all of the other AT's that get it. Different strokes for different folks! :)

I chuckled at this. Tashibishi as a name doesn't fit the action taken. There is no singular word in Japanese for caltrop. The terms used describe what it is. Makibishi would have made more sense to me since that is an act of throwing/scattering tiny spikes intended to slowdown movement. Other terms get very very specific as to the type of caltrop like ones made of iron, or ones designed like flower petals. It feels like the original designers looked up something from Blackbelt Magazine, which had advertisements for "Ninja Tashbibishi Caltrops", and then went from there. This just adds on to how Ninjitsu is spelled the way it is verse Ninjutsu or how all Katana users are left handed which isn't how classic Japanese swordplay is traditionally taught. I have no problems with Ninja blade being left handed. There are a lot of reasons why a ninja would do that. ANYWAY. Kemuridama is one where I also laughed because it is accurate!!! It means smoke bomb, and that is what the power is! Another good laugh is the use of Bo Ryaku. That word doesn't mean what I think they thought it means. Also funny stuff. Sorry to sidetrack but that comment was too funny to pass. I use caltrops on my DP/Nin, but I like playing close range. The benefit for caltrops is it creates a nice buffer zone in which melee likes to run out and switch to range. Worried about DDR in melee on Nin? Toss out some caltrops and let those baddies back off a bit. Then pick them off at mid-range. Use it with a long-range character to create some chaos or slow them down. It's so versatile.

Take what you need as you go. That's probably a really generic response, but power value isn't that complicated. Pistols + Dual Wield should be a given. You wouldn't get another hard hitter until later (Executioner's Shot) anyway. No reason to make a frustrating single target rotation when Homecoming gives you a respec for free ever 10 levels. <-- Use one at 50 or use an alternate build for a final version. Make life easy. Work smarter, not harder. There is no reason not to use both Empty Clips and Bullet Rain while leveling. Your next real AoE is Hail of Bullets... at level 38. Piercing Rounds takes some slotting with range in order to open the default cone. So I don't quite put it in the same realm as Clips/Rain. Oh, and PR comes in the 30's too. Again, no reason to handicap yourself while leveling. Do what is fun! You can push off Suppressive Fire until a final build. You could also take it too... there isn't a wrong answer. I love the use of Suppressive as a stacking control in these builds, but you do need some IO's to really see it as functional. Anyway, don't feel restricted to following a build exactly while leveling. You won't have all of the components that make it work as you level anyway. So do what you think works while using the build as a template and fix the lessons learned with a final version at 50. That's what I do and it makes leveling decisions far less stressful. Of course, YMMV. ;)

Glad you found it useful. I use some different powers on my Sentinel vs my Corruptor. I actually decided to drop Bullet Rain on the Sent for a few reasons. 1) I kinda hate the animation. At least, it doesn't fit the concept for my character at all since the tracer rounds appear to land in arcs. It is more Wesley from Wanted and less John Preston from Equilibrium. 2) Sentinel's have a lower target cap anyway so Bullet Rain doesn't have quite the AoE advantage for Sentinels. Corruptors get Scourge so attacks like Bullet Rain have some inherent bonuses there. Oh, and I like hybrid dps-support for my Corruptor. So Bullet Rain lets me spread the debuff love to more targets. More AoE options = more targets debuffed. My Sentinel is more single target focused because AoE on the AT is "meh". If that ever changes for the AT, I'd likely change my recommendations. 3) Empty Clips has higher DPA. It takes more enemies for Bullet Rain to be more efficient, and see # 2 on target caps. It can still be efficient on Sentinels, but see #1 as well. lol -- side note. Both of these powers can take the Force Feedback Chance for Recharge. Bullet Rain will get you more targets hit to trigger the effect since you can't mess up targeting like you can with Empty Clips. For damage purposes though, Clips is fine see #4 about increasing cone size by accident on the Sentinel. 4) Sentinel ATO's have global bonuses to range. Positron's blast has a Range/Damage. Both Empty Clips and even Piercing Rounds are better cones because of this. It isn't hard to widen their cones and make more out of the limited target caps of the AT with these. 5) I use Suppressive Fire on my Sentinel but not my Corruptor. It effectively replaces Bullet Rain in the numbers of powers I took as well as number of slots spent. I really wanted to squeeze in Suppressive on my Corr to stack the hold with Petrifying Gaze or use it for additional control. I just couldn't in the end since there were other things I wanted, and in the end Bullet Rain + Scourge was more important for that build. Anyway, I've used Bullet Rain a number of ways on Justin for the Sentinel and ultimately came to the conclusion I could live without it. An IO build on the Sentinel transforms some of the functionality of Dual Pistols in greater ways than it seems to on Corruptor/Defenders. I won't comment on Blasters since I haven't bothered to investigate them. I could probably go on about some other differences like ammo types between the two, but anyone can PM for that. I don't want to derail this. Actually, I just took a peek at Blaster DP on Pine's. If it is correct, then Sentinel's are the only AT with the set that have the absolutely worst values for the debuffs. In both testing on Justin, and napkin mathing rotations (my napkin is an Excel spreadsheet) using the standard ammo took a back seat to fire ammo for damage. You might see some rotations like starting off Piercing Rounds in standard ammo, turn on fire ammo, follow-up Pistols -> Executioner -> Pistols -> repeat.. This may not work as well on all Sentinel builds (I can only speak for my specific build). I would recommend doing the above on say a Defender that gets -20% resistance with Piercing Rounds in standard ammo, or a Corruptor with -15% (Blasters too at -13% if accurate in Pine's). The Sentinel's -9.6% wasn't doing as well against a Pylon (base 20% Resistance) as the fire ammo in solo testing. Believe it or not I have had success with Piercing -> Pistols -> Executioner -> Suppressive, and never toggle off ammo. For pure damage Incendiary seems to be the way to go 24/7 (at least for my DP/Nin) because the damage contribution of the fire was contributing more for Piercing Rounds than the debuff was to the follow-up hits in total damage per cycle (starts with PR, ends with new application of PR when it is ready again). Any amounts of -resistance are going to be amplified on teams though since more of their damage will break through. So standard ammo with it's -resistance and -defense debuffs might be more valuable than whatever personal DPS increase you get in some group compositions. Chemical rounds still offer -damage which also has value at times. I'm not personally fond of cryo, but if you're teamed with a set that stacks -recharge by accident (Water, Ice, etc.) you can support them with cryo. I am sure there are other ways to get creative with Dual Pistols. It is what the set is good at, being creative with the ammo. Maybe I should write a guide one of these days. The set seems to have popped up in popularity lately since I see multiple lines of discussion in all the AT's that have access to it. I've had a lot of fun just exploring the nuance of the set across the Sentinel, Defender, and Corruptor. After toying with Defender, I ultimately opted for Corruptor for my DP/Dark/Soul due to personal preference. Anyway, I've probably derailed this topic enough, but maybe my experience will be of use to others.

That's a Sentinel question. ;) Happen to play Dual Pistols on both. I also use the powers and slotting differently due to ATO's and preferences. Anyway, the Sentinel ATOs have a lot of accuracy, recharge, and damage. The overall set bonuses are good. Using a full set in a specific power or breaking them up is preference. Either way, they are useful for their general enhancement benefits. The procs are not impressive, but you may as well put them somewhere. They both include a recharge reduction on top of the effect. All the above is pretty generic but so is the question. In short, yes they are worth slotting into attacks but they don't significantly change Sentinel game play.

I'm going to throw out some Devil's Advocate style thoughts. Maybe they will give you some ideas or reinforce how you feel about the build. It's by no means an attempt by me to say your build is "wrong" because I don't feel that way. Anyway... about resistances. You're pairing two sets with damage debuffs. Enervating Field is -20% damage. Chemical Ammunition gives a -8% damage debuff on Pistols, and -10% on your others. They will stack. If you are worried about incoming damage, change your ammo and debuff the enemy offense. I get pushing to cap S/L defense. I personally feel it is overrated when using sets that can heavily debuff enemy to hit. I am well aware that debuffs can be resisted, and some enemies have high to hit, and that August in the South is miserably humid. So there is value in having high defense in those times where the -to hit is resisted. It doesn't change the fact that Radiation on Corruptors has a base -25% to hit debuff which can be enhanced to around -40%. For most enemies and grouping situations, your debuff is going to make you pretty safe. If you plan on big game hunting solo, well then soft capping is a sound plan. For attacks in this specific set, I worry a little less about full set bonuses and a little more on procs. Specifically, I am hugely biased towards Achilles' Heel in Pistols and Executioner. You will fire these off frequently against a tough target. Why not add another -20% resistance debuff? Using the proc in both isn't about stacking, because it doesn't, but instead it is about up time. You can do just fine with the proc in one power. I prefer two. Piercing Rounds can't take Achilles' Heel but it can take it's cousin from the Annihilation set. These aren't guaranteed effects, but they do stack with Enervating Field. Dual Pistols isn't a huge damage set. However, the debuffs are pretty good. Furthermore, it makes use of procs that debuff. This can work as a force multiplier in teams and it allows for more of your middle of the road damage to actually impact the hit points vs being resisted (even if Ammo only converts around 30% of the damage away from lethal). One more thing about Piercing Rounds. The cone is narrow. Positron's Blast has a range enhancement. That will open that cone a little. Ok, I lied, one one one more thing about Piercing Rounds. You know how I said that the Annihilation proc isn't a guarantee? Well standard rounds includes a -15% resistance debuff for Corruptors. So the proc there may not be what you want if you plan to juggle ammo types. See, I can Devil's Advocate my own ideas! :) Anyway, I just wanted to share some food for thought.

I don't know. I doubt "undervalue" is a fair statement to apply to yourself. I hope I didn't come across as overstating it's use. While the effects of Opportunity are better than nothing, did we really need an ATO to let us use the inherent slightly more often in the first place? I think the criticism of it being underwhelming in comparison to other gameplay changing ATO's is absolutely fair.

Hope you don't mind, but I'd like to share some observations/experience with these. I know you didn't ask for them but the thread title is generic enough others casually browsing may find it useful. ;) The Ward proc hasn't impressed me on defense-based sets. However, the full set has a lot of recharge within the enhancements themselves especially in the Superior version. So the full 6pc set can bring down the cooldown of a T9, for example, pretty dramatically. For sets not pushing a lot of defense the absorb may have greater value within in a regular attack chain. You still may not want to put the full set into powers that make strong use of damage procs. That's totally preference of course, but my observations have been this set works better for me outside of my single target rotations. The Strikes ATO proc gives you a burst of Opportunity which improves uptime on whatever mode you want (Offense/Defense). You'll likely want that in your regular attack cycle. Specific power choice is preference. I happen to like this proc in my single target chain vs the Ward which sits in an AoE for me most of the time. I'd love to hear how others uses these in their sets and what they feel it contributes to the playstyle.

Pine's still has a lot of things wrong for Sentinels. The damage scale is one of those. BUT here is the TL;DR - Even considering the scaler issue in Pine's lower damage is an AT vs AT thing. The rest of my discussion here is comparison against set I personally play. I have several Sentinels. Here are ones I have made: Dark/Regen Dark/Dark (replaced my /Regen) Dual Pistols/Ninjitsu Beam Rifle/Willpower Sonic/Energy Aura Assault Rifle/Bio Armor I have a build for Water/Super Reflexes I want to experiment with on Justin whenever it pops back up. Anyway, per Pine's both of Dark's AoE powers have fairly consistent DPA (compared to each other). This is actually quite good compared to the other sets I play. Empty Clips (DP) falls just behind both of those, Shockwave/Howl (Sonic) falls behind, Cutting Beam (Beam) falls behind, Buckshot (AR) is better, M30 Grenade (AR) falls behind, and Flamethrower (AR) breaks even etc. Beam is kind of an odd duck in that it gets a bouncing chain attack that actually does surprisingly well on Disintegrate targets as does Piercing Beam. Those numbers don't reflect in Pine's. Sonic just has really anemic options for AoE outside of the T9. Anyway, that's just to give an idea on comparisons. I'm not going to advocate specifics on what powers to take or not (not the point of this discussion). Real numbers are a bit higher but the comparisons still hold true. As for single target, Dark holds its own well against the sets I play. Of course I am playing a lot of middle of the road primaries but breaking roughly even in the pack isn't really a horrible place to be. It's not dead last. Sonic Blast on Sentinels is kind of an outlier because Screech is insane. It is the next highest DPA to Dreadful Wail doing about 85% of a T9's damage on a 3 second cooldown with how I have slotted those. The other single targets are all pretty 'meh' but they do stack -9.6% resistance which leads into my Screech. Anyway, Dark Blast is an "OK" damage set on an AT that doesn't really wow anyone for damage numbers. So I can see how it will look like it is even worse when compared to Blasters. However, it's AoE is actually better than it looks when compared to some other sets, and it's single target isn't bad either (it's not great either).

I like vanilla ice cream and I also like chocolate ice cream. I can't really pick a favorite so I eat which ever flavor suits me best in the moment. It is that very logic as to why I have so many alts. I have made seven Sentinels now. One I retired early in the 30's and remade, and two are brand new. I just like the AT overall. It fulfills a lot of concepts I wish I could have made a long time ago and I am just having a blast rotating these characters. I have made versions of them on Justin to test builds so I also have a good feel for what they are like as a finished product.

May I ask, what game have you been playing? (I do mean that playfully) More specifically, what power combos of Defender/Controller are you talking about, and have you played a Stalker at all with the quality of life changes that were included? For Controllers, of which I have several, I have never felt like "I'm not strong enough to handle things on my own". There comes a point when I look at teams and say "why am I bothering with these people". Granted some power combos for Defenders and Controllers can be challenging solo, but by God a level 50 IO'ed Controller can be a beast. Do they all finish 4/8 missions in seconds without Kinetics? Nope. However you can have an incredibly safe experience arresting targets. Want to beat down Giant Monsters and AVs? Controllers can do that too. "I'm not strong enough to handle things on my own"... LOL indeed. Stalkers can struggle in the low levels because Hide displaces a defense power and attacks are often a priority for a lot of players (myself included). This means you don't start filling out defenses until 20's. However, by the 30's when you start getting more slots your overall survival should be decent. By end-game a Stalker should be sailing along far smoother than they did at level 10. There should be no situations where you're dropping Hidden and feeling like a Blaster. Not even as Regen, not by a long shot. Shadow Meld alone makes any Stalker build very survivable in the 40+ range. - As to the original question, I agree with the basic breakdown others have stated throughout the thread. Scrappers have higher base damage and better hit points. Certain power sets have their own perks that Stalkers don't have (and vice versa, really). Stalkers offer more control over combat flow and how they deal with critical hits. They are different enough to me that you really have to ask yourself which style of play you like more vs just asking if one basically makes the other obsolete. Same goes for the argument of Brute vs Tanker, Defender vs Corruptor, yadda yadda.

I've been playing a Dark/Dark Sent recently. I decided to reroll from Dark/Regen since I got bored with it a bit. ;) I can't comment on Fire, but I will share my thoughts on /Dark. First off, Dark Armor likes to be in melee. Obscure Sustenance is pretty strong. The initial heal it has is smallish, but it buffs your regeneration AND endurance recovery. Those two effects last for as long as the cooldown (effects last 60s vs a 60s cooldown). You do want to give this power love. I 6 slot it. The armor toggles can be fine with 3 slots. You want them. I see no reason to skip them. I highly suggest you take Cloak of Darkness. In addition to all it does, it has a stealth component. With the Celerity +Stealth you can hop right into a melee spawn and go to town. It's a bit easier for me to say that since Dark is my primary and the T9 has a massive -to hit. Cloak of Fear, Oppressive Gloom, and Soul Transfer are options. Dark Armor doesn't have a T9 buff like Electric does that caps off your resistances or makes you harder to hit. Instead you get soft control tools. Cloak of Fear has a fear effect which can be useful, and it has a small -to hit debuff. It is PBAoE and I'd consider it for your pairing. OR you could take Oppressive Gloom which is a stun with a much smaller endurance drain (it will take health - your regeneration can easily match it). Either one of these, slot them and make them stronger. They are effectively your replacement to a T9 combined with the regeneration from Obscure Sustenance. Soul Transfer is a strong revive power, but I'm not fond of revives. Still, Soul Transfer may suit your purposes. Beyond the base primary/secondary stuff, consider Fighting for Tough and Weave. Maybe even Sorcery for Rune of Protection (it's kinda like a Tier 9 lite). Maneuvers from Leadership also helps. Dark Armor is actually pretty straight forward and doesn't take a lot of slots to make it work. You won't cap any resistances without pool powers, but you have other things that will help you out. Edit, plan to buy either the Karma or Steadfast IO's for KB protection. Gladiator's armor could also work with the 3pc bonus.

I disagree, but I'm genuinely curious. Do you feel this way across archtypes as a general rule or do you feel this way for certain archtypes?

I tend to either use standard ammo (for groups) or incendiary ammo (for solo, and some groups). The other two have situational uses which varies by game content as well as over all build.

You brought this up in another thread. I just wanted to say, I have been testing this a bit more and in practice it works very very well. It is a lot smoother than the typical attack chain that other AT's with Dual Pistols use. So thank you for bringing up the Unbreakable Constraint proc because I had completely overlooked it. It makes Suppressive Fire a lot better. You've probably already considered that several powers can take Forcefeedback: Chance for Recharge (Bullet Rain/Dual Wield/Empty Clips/Hail of Bullets). I'm experimenting with a no-hasten build on Justin with the FF proc in Bullet Rain. It's been pretty hilarious running in x4/x8 missions spamming these and seeing occasions where Hail of Bullet's recharge just skips several seconds of time. Adding that would break the bonus from Sentinel's Ward, but may be worth playing around with for you.

Dual Pistol is a versatile set. The damage is decent but not exceptional. The real strength of the set though is the flexibility of what the different ammo modes do and the pistol secondary effects in general. Fire ammo is your dps ammo. It adds a damage over time effect in addition to changing a portion of the damage from lethal to fire. Cold ammo add a slow. Toxic ammo adds a damage debuff. Standard rounds have negative defense and resistance on certain powers. It's a pretty flexible set if you go into with the mindset that it's strength is choice. While solo, you can use the fire ammo to speed things up. While teamed you can use the debuffs, or the damage if that is better in the moment. The toxic ammo damage debuff isn't as strong as the Defender version, but it is far from weak. With a secondary that also debuffs damage you can pile on those effects a bit more. Hail of Bullets is a PBAoE, and it also gives you a short duration defense debuff. You can pop it from stealth and likely dodge a lot of return fire while living out your Equilibrium fantasy (seriously, watch that film). So overall a solid choice for those that want to hybrid play damage/support.

That's the VEAT specific power "Tactical Training: Maneuvers". The Leadership power numbers are different.

Paralyzing Dart is a single target hold which has uses if you're into that sort of thing. You need 2 powers from Ninja Tools to unlock smoke bomb (Kemuridama). Neither of those are important though. You can make a solid character skipping the Epic Pools if you like. Blinding Powder on the other, can actually be pretty fun. It is a Confuse and you can open with it from stealth thus making targets attack each other instead of you. It also has a -to hit with it, but that's not the real draw of the power.

Can confirm, Suppressive does take hold enhancements. I ran some tests using it with the two purple procs and it turns into a really nice damage tool even without the bonus fire DoT. Piercing Rounds with Annihilation and Pistols/Executioner with Achilles' Heel work as expected.