Monos King

Whoa that's an interesting thought. Removing the minion rank at certain difficulties. Either not spawning certain minions at all, or upgrading them; making sappers Lieutenants or something?

Yeah it's about like that, as long as by caster you mean the enforcers themselves. Enforcers do in fact have the 80% dmg scale, t1 pets gets 60% and the big boy pet gets 100% value, just for future reference. Big boy and fodder pets don't get to hit modifiers (accept for wolves, who can't actually slot Gaussian's for whatever reason) so they can't even use Boost Up from it anyway.

lol whoops. I was just bouncing off of what you said and stating why I don't think that would be a good reasoning on HC teams end. I was replying to you, but addressing everyone with that argument I kept seeing. Sorry about that confusion. I don't think I ever said Gaussian's wasn't worth much, I'm rather sure I've repeatedly reiterated it is quite helpful. When I said it isn't "that good", I meant as in not OP. I'm pretty sure we're on the same side here.

I considered that, but Gaussian's isn't even that good. It's a beneficial way of increasing damage and more importantly to hit in the support class Enforcers, but other pets from different primaries should have their own unique abilities, and thus, different IOs. If the ability to have Boost Up were such a deciding outlier, than the balance between certain damaging powers would've been disrupted long ago. It's just a attack boost. Grave Knights and Jounin without it still do more damage than enforcers with it. If IOs are going to be worked on for MMs, then like I said there should have been a notice so we didn't all freak out. It's like they don't actually understand the significance of these changes or the issues for MMs with IOs. And I really don't want to hear another "well that's not what it was ever supposed to do" comment. Not only is that just not true, but even if it were we are CLEARLY distancing ourselves from original intentions to benefit the game. The devs and I share that opinion, that change is ineluctable and can be positive. So let's stop pretending that we are being limited by upsetting strict constructions of nebulous intentions.

Thanks for that @Blackfeather , it doesn't look like the sleep IO conversation is going anywhere now. What should be drawn from all of this is: Sleep powers in general are vastly inferior to every other Status effect, and should be reworked to bare any signifiance As of now, the only real utility sleep powers had was to act as carriers for the heal "Call of the Sandman" Call of the Sandman, when firing off only once, in any circumstance, is effectively useless. Call of the Sandman needs to be reworked as a proc (as well as all procs like it that cannot be slotted into auto powers.) The state of Sandman and sleep as of now is simply unacceptable, so if there are long term plans, they should at the very least be stated to be in design or in development before changes like this with no warning. The issue with the Pet IO's and pet relevant IOs are still in face down position. Suggestions on those, or for a look at some proposals can be found at this thread:

I'm willing to concede on the notion, primarily because it is secondary to my big issue with mastermind related procs. I've already made my point on the matter, if the dev team isn't going to shift the paradigm on IO situational benefit or compatibilities, in spite community preference, I'll let other people make further cases. I highly doubt, however, that the explanation for Gaussian's and Soulbound will have such a crutch to stand on. And the issue surrounding MM IO viability is a far more prevalent conversation that needs to be addressed anyhow. I'll just wait for @Captain Powerhouse.

I think it is wise to shut down purist arguments. It allows us to move into an era where necessary changes can be made for the benefit of everyone. I haven't once made the "well the original devs made it this way, so it should stay this way" argument. I believe that is counter-productive, as things have very much changed. I will, however, cite their intentions when something is labeled a glitch or acceptable to the games balance. Their rulings then still hold relevance. What I have been mentioning from that era, however, is the effectiveness of certain procs. That they were not deemed a problem then, and in the Homecoming Age of Leniency, most certainly should not be considered one now. Noteworthy in that category is Gaussian's providing pets with Boost Up, and Soulbound shortly providing players with Boost Up. These two procs have had, even to this very moment, no explanation for their change. I am adamant in the belief it was a pointless alteration, and should be reversed. Sandman's newfound effectiveness contrasts definitely with the puritist attachments to live rules, and you yourself have suggested that there is little intention to stay tethered to them. I agree, that any argument latched to them is invalid. So let's not waste time with the fact that their original intention wasn't to be a strong heal, their original intention sucked. So with that in mind, I think it would help to look at the instances of using Sleep abilities with theft slotted in for reference. Let's look at their base recharge times. Mass Hypnosis: 1 min 30 sec, let's bring it down to 26 factoring in 120% rech enhancements and 137% recharge buffs. Big values. Salt Crystals: Same changes as above, around 26 sec Spore Burst: 13 sec Static Field: 11.5 Static Field is a pseudo pet so it doesn't even activate in the way it would with the others, so I won't consider it. Controllers maximum health is 1606.35. 1 Sandman fire would provide 80 health. The highest amount of targets any of these can hit at once is 16. So at most, with these EXTREMELY exaggerated values, a controller will benefit is 1,280, at potentially every 13 seconds. That seems like a lot until you remember a power boosted troll using something like Twilight Grasp heals 946 every 3, 1892 every 6, 2838 every 9. On top of various other buffs, on top of debuffs, on top of the fact that I took almost peak values of benefit from sandman and assuming it hits every target. Speaking in reality, it isn't OP. It's just helpful. So there is no need to change it. In the case of tanks using Salt Crystals, it is effective. I will hand that one over, as a maxed out tank will heal to full health assuming he doesn't miss every 26 seconds. But on the account that tanks survivability is already god tier, this fact makes almost no difference. So with the knowledge that Sandman isn't OP, isn't complained about by players, and the fact that the original intentions are a total non factor here...why change the proc? Why change any of these?

That was a joke. My actual points are still valid. The current changes to Sandman being better than they were on the live server is also rather meaningless, because if that's the case it just means they are slightly less pointless to get as compared to live. Evidently, changes to its efficiency were needed. Based off of what you said, these changes were made, and were now rescinded. That recent rescindment really warrants reversal. Soulbound still needs to be put back to the way it was because there was no reason for it to be changed. It just accentuates the already troublesome MM IO situation. Gaussians need to be put back for the same reason. Unless there is some grand plan that's intended to perfect IOs for MMs and the lot that would make these changes understandable and needed from the future foreground, this is just a big, needless, upset. And if there IS that grand plan, it would make more sense to install all these changes at once with full player awareness of said improvements so we can avoid tremors like this one. Right now it just looks like isolated deprecations that underscore existing issues.

Regardless of the reception to aura changes, there are a lot of other changes that would be effective at solving problems. I'm curious as to how people felt about giving Lich containment and Self Soul Extraction.

Noted the same thing, happening in every zone.

This is without any Power Boosts of any kind, as well.

Repel and Teleport Protection is only there due to Gladiator's Armor; not a bug.

As the title suggests. Attempting to monitor smashing res simply shows a Knockback Resistance value, even in something like Charged Armor. Faraday Cage may actually be providing knockback protection, and the aforementioned bug might simply be preventing its display.

As the title states, the end drain with high stacks of Static on defibrillate is...too much. Behold the results on a tank with 86% end resistance. Diminishing Returns were disabled. Things were even worst when they were not, as expected. Within the video image is also an interesting bug with Defibrillate, which displays a "miss" despite very clearly hitting the opponent. I don't call for any nerfs in PvE instances, but with the very quick recharge of the move Defibrillate is far too effective in PvP. It should be flagged not to benefit from static in PvP scenarios, or reduced to 10% effectiveness or something. I think the first proposal should be enough.

Oh cool, so I can use the purist argument to convince Power House to change it back. Nice. Seriously it causes no issue at all, it was purely beneficial on situational basis.

From my last thread on Mastermind high demands: Masterminds have been struggling to find IO compatibility for what feels like eons, desperately dispensing pets with little end-game enhancement backing. While masterminds, like any class, will be fine once maximized through incarnates and the lot, the reward and efficiency from enhancements is both limiting and necessary to the extent that upgrading the class can feel like litte more than a catalog of constraints. Not surprisingly, I've seen many become disinterested in the archetype as a result. Here are some suggestions (and a few definite must fixs) to help brighten up that dismay. Return player proc to Soulbound Allegiance Debuffers such as cold and therm with the knowledge have found GREAT utility in the ability to have a minor build up through the faculties of their own build, with no outside source. The Boost Up from Soulbound is definitely nothing new or unique, but was a surefire assurance that your next Heat Exhaustion or Benumb or Weaken was going to hit your elusive opponent. This was true of both PvP as well as PvE instances. Return pet proc to Gaussian's when placed into a pet with +to hit These last two were changes recently added to the beta server, and they really need to be reverted as quickly as possible. Mastermind IO advantage was hyper low before, and this change removes a cherished, long recognized benefit to powers that thug users have benefitted from for ages. Enforcers gaining the boost up proc was considered integral and removing it without warning or request was truly silly. This one NEEDs to come back. Additionally, even more IO proc changes were dispensed that were wholly unecessary, and I will address both those and changes that should NOT occur. Return Call of the Sandmans multi-fire Proc AoE sleep effects are not an effect that I personally make use of, however I haven't seen a single complaint in all these years warranting the sudden change. At most, it is a nice increased survivabilty measure for those that select the move. In its current state, I cannot see the proc having ANY purpose what so ever. Trolls/doms have pitiful health. It should be returned, I do not like the precedent these changes are setting AT ALL. Maintain Changes to Power Transfer multi-fire With the advent of electrical affinity, and its quick recharge AoE +endurances, this proc should be kept in it's current beta state as single fire. Energizing Circuit becomes too potent with power transfer slotted, and while I have no issue with that I realize others will find ire in its superiority. Slotting the proc in something like Inexhaustable or Stamina maintains the effectiveness of the Power Transfer proc in a manner analogous to Panacea, so I think it is in a fine position. Sustain Current Theft of Essence proc, make it UNIQUE The effectiveness of this proc is pretty impressive. But, it does essentially transform certain heals into Dark Consumption, so if it is intended to be nerfed it should be made unique. A single powerset can't even have many Accurate Heals (at most 3 if you are bio/dark or bio/rad), so there couldn't be many existing players stuffing an obscene amount of this proc into their builds. Let me state i am NOT FOR ANY KIND OF NERF ON THESE PROCS. I would like them to be left alone. But in the event the devs are considering changing this one next, which they should not but current events suggests, this should be the only alteration made. Every AoE heal of this nature sans Dark Regeneration already has a +end component, making this proc a sort of natural conclusion for many. But IOs should be effective, and all of these unwanted changes reduce the procs to completely pointless (besides Power Transfer).

@Razor Cure Actually, let me give it one more shot. An emp/arc defender isn't suppose to do damage. It's role isn't inhibited by that shortcoming, but IOs can circumvent it. A EM brute can do damage outside of high recharge, it's role as tank and damaged isn't hindered by the shortcoming, but IOs can circumvent it. A thugs/poison MM is supposed to support and do things with pets. But it's pets die instantly without auras. So it can't. A demons/emp is supposed to do the same. But it's pets will die swiftly without auras. So it can't. The reason this is an overlying MM issue and not a power specific one is due to the fact the disadvantages are disproportionate. Thugs is *supposed* to have low res, that itself isn't an issue because it trades low defenses for high damage, but even the high res pets will die very quickly without added resistance and defense buffs. Sets that can provide this will prosper, and dodge innate weaknesses, so the compatibility is actually just disproportionate advantage. ALL MMs need auras. Especially at lower levels or high content, exempt only to instances of therm, cold, and maybe dark depending on the primary. Even force field and sonic will get shredded at the +4 or x6 or beyond level because of the squishiness of pets. They can barely team. To compete with those generally effective secondaries at all, auras are necessary for every single MM, or their role as support/damage ATs is quickly jeopardized. Because the pets are vaporized.

Yes, but I highlighted the difference when I said "disproportionately bad" and "crippled compared to even other MMs". I'm not sure I can actually explain it in greater depth than that, I think you'll just have to take the majorities word on this one if you haven't seen personally the scenarios where these complaints arise so often. Otherwise I think we just can't see eye to eye here, which is fine, because that was just a topic for thought suggestion anyway. There's still a lot of other proposals here I think we both can push for.

You keep talking about instances of survivability suggesting ATOs are fine, I think you're confused as to what is being lamented. IOs. What holds back the archetype itself, aside from specific issues like ninjas total defenselessness and what I highlighted previously, are the issues with enhancements. A lot of people see the huge problem, so I'll do my best to bring you up to speed. Not all masterminds are thermal, cold, or another strong protective set. You might be. And some masterminds are thugs, with no inherent resistances beyond bruiser, and ninja, which might as well have no inherent resistances. This means that compatibility issues will arise, because choosing a defensively weak primary with something not *devoted* to protection results in disproportionately disadvantageous performance. You don't need the auras at all if your something like demons/cold, but if your thugs/poison you are completely doomed without it; not only in many instances of solo play but overwhelmingly so in any instances of group play. This makes them necessary. But because they are necessary, they are constraining. A set like ninjas doesn't have a throw away power to fill up with aura procs the way demons or necro does. They are limited by what they can enhance because they absolutely NEED to get the auras to be viable in groups. Pets, even when sharing casters level like in incarnate trials, are intentionally squishy without support. Few exceptions. This intention goes stale when they can't receive benefit from support due to their lacking resistances, die or attract unwanted aggro, and reduce the mastermind to little more than a less potent defender or corruptor. So the slots, 6 not 2 by the way, are crucial. Being crucial, 6 slots are now taken up, preventing the mastermind from optimally IOing out. And that's a huge problem compared to other classes when masterminds have limited benefit from IOs to begin with! That's the issue. Compared to other ATs, or even other types of masterminds, most masterminds are effectively crippled, and less than viable as a result of the above.

I'll need you to expand on this idea a bit as well. Pets themselves seem fine from my perspective, conceptually. I'm really here to push for changes to MM viability, not reworks of the class and class functions. What you're suggesting seems like it will be way more difficult, controversial, and generally less likely to happen because of how unnecessary they are. I'd rather look at the list of fixing what's holding MMs back before installing an array of additions like pet power diversification, if that's what your suggesting.

That should answer your question.

More temporary powers!? Yes, my king.

I agree that the core issue should be fixed, so I would prefer they leave things be in that department and fix it all at once with a cohesive plan rather than make small sets of controversial changes now without any future reference available. This change was just a huge, unwarranted upset to most thug users. The ideal MM IO plan probably wouldn't need something like Gaussians across the class, and putting it into enforcers might just become a trade off as simple as putting Force Feedback vs Devastation proc into Duel Wield. But for now, I'm viciously against this seemingly vaccumized reduction.

I actually agree beasts need some work. By functionally perfect, I mean it fulfills its intended purpose well; it's good at what it's supposed to do which is single target melee dmg. That purpose just isn't viable. I happened to address the change in base values above so I'm glad we're on the same page there, but as for Gaussians I am adamant it needs to return. With all the issues of IO viability, stripping a pet of one of the *only* instances of said concept isn't something I will ever get behind, especially when it's been around for so long. It will seem like less of an advantage when MMs get a few IO touch ups (hopefully one of the options proposed in the poll) but Enforcers gaining the Boost Up isn't nearly as tide turning as you might think. It pretty much just ensures they do decent damage and don't miss when it matters. Pets dmg cap is only 300%, so their damage is more dependent on effects or base power damage. I don't think zombie is in any need of AoE, but I think it would also be a very welcome change if it's in the form of Grave Knights Slice. The only issue is that adding it to the rotation would reduce their quick sucession single target DPS, but if zombie mains agree that's for the best it's probably fine.

I like the idea of any and all improvements to serum, and changing to AoE buffs is definitely effective. I just thought it would be good to maintain the intention of the "godmode" aspect of the power, which is really fun at lower levels when you want your pet to fight way out of your weight class whilst you watch from a distance. @Rosewire To that end I wouldn't mind keeping the resistance and losing the defense buff, as high levels would shred through the serum buffs here. The idea was their superhuman strength would make them hyper agile and swift. While they would be generally more helpful and definitely better for the high leveled, it wouldn't prevent one shots or quick succession two shots. Although one might argue that's ideal.