Monos King

BANKAI!

It's a little bit different. I could actually see hasten becoming inherent. It's a very different suggestion from removing a power, although the 70% suggestion you gave is practically the same. You're fighting a losing battle, but power to you. I'll be watching the ground shake from my luxury suite. Oh and if you play masterminds you should check out my most recent suggestions thread found here.

I mean without taking any sides...you do realize this will 100% not happen right? I think the more effective way to go about this argument is to make a case that rechargee times across the board are inherently too low, and that the recharge centric meta is the product of flawed game design. @AbysmalyxiaI could see something like "increase powers base recharge scaling to your level" similar to how damage and debuff res works going smoother with the community, and one of your supporting reasons being "diminishing the relevance (not need) of hasten". Then you could suggest lowering hastens buff from there. Like, that's just an example. But outright removing or vacuumously changing hasten is just 100% totally never actually going to ever fly. You're new to the forums so I'm letting you know but yeah. Not happening.

Oh my phone screen cut out your first paragraph lmao. The stow idea is certainly interesting. I have a QoL thread actually, right here. Stowing as a concept is intriguing, and maybe something that all pets could get in the form of a P2W vendor temporary magic satchel item. I wouldn't call it priority since managing your pets survival with buffs and commands is the main point though. It'd probably end up OP too. But I like.

I'm going to start editing in the most popular suggestions into the front page for easier viewing, so make sure to react to the suggestions you like!

Yes please more temporary powers.

Can we talk about Mercenary Serum for masterminds? It's seriously way too OP. You're practically giving your pet a full t9 res buff. Not to mention Commandos are blasters with their own nuke, LRM Rocket. Masterminds are just too effective. That's why the devs nerfed their pets levels to -1 and -2. Let's stop ignoring the obvious guys. Replace Serum with Volcanic Gases.

Hmmmm very interesting ideas. This is a function/performance thread but I do like those concepts. Starting a cosmetic thread to get them noticed could be a way to go.

Are you saying LotG is a slot tax? Because I've been involved in a few slot tax discussions lately and I really don't think this meets the cut. It's only a tax if your performance is determined by the enhancements slotted; like it's necessary. Even base power recharges are manageable technically, once you get all the other recharge set bonuses and hasten, and whatever +rech powers you have, maybe even unrelent and adrenal booster...you can't really say LotG is a tax at all. You probably have other powers to use during whatever downtime exists after all that. It's like any other IO bonus; a benefit that you can decide if you want or not. If you're power panicking and recharge obsessed and comparing your personal rech to everyone else, then you'll probably want to invest in getting those entire pool powers just to slot LotG. But I definitely don't, that's a total waste of a pool pick. I suggest just not doing that. You said you're competitively building, right? This isn't a problem then, competition already implies challenge and sacrifice. You guys are literally going down to the slot to get whatever edge you think will have over the next guy, testing the limits of build design. Doesn't asking to make it easier kind of defeat the purpose? I'm totally ok with just flat out adding like one or two new unique global rechs because extra recharge wouldn't hurt or cause any problems but LotG is totally auxiliary and not necessary. Making game changes to further optimize optimized performance just for the sake of it though? Can't say I agree with that reasoning.

I considered that you might mention my mastermind threads, but I dismissed the notion. I dismissed the notion because I thought that after all the messages I and others had spent attempting to explain to you why those changes were something that could be considered necessary you would not be so negligent as to compare the two. You are still apparently extremely mistaken as to the nature of the ATOs, and I invite anyone reading this thread to take a look for yourselves at my thread for the specified differences (there's some really cool suggestions on there, including some new IOs that might be of interest. You can find that thread here. ) Razor if you don't understand the difference between what I am against here now and what I am a high proponent of for masterminds, we have no business talking to each other. I really wanted you to understand, but it seems you don't have the game experiences to do so. That's ok, but a good deal of posts were spent trying to make you understand. If you just don't get what all of us are talking about, I wouldn't advise using your perspective as a reference in the matter. I don't understand why you keep citing Time as if I and other people didn't literally just address it. Two of us even called it an outlier for different reasons. You just pulled out my words a sentence after I explained why there was a difference. Why would you do that? I'm a little confused. If that's the case then these changes aren't necessary then are they? You just said they already have a measure of protection, and again, they aren't scrappers or sentinels or VEATS. They shouldn't get high protection as a result of the AT design philosophies. I also don't think you addressed a single thing I said in regards to why I don't think this change is necessary (like how self buffing as persuasion to do your job as support in a group is ridiculous) aside from suggesting that the fact that CC exists isn't relevant to a discussion about extra protection for support classes. That's what it has to do with self buffing shields, by the way. I'm slightly disgruntled you had to ask that. I'm extremely opposed to this idea because I think this means of thinking will set harmful precedents and hurt distinctions of classes and thus eventually further complaints about things like balance and ease of the game. And seriously, if you even mention the MM thing again outside of it's thread, I won't be able to take you seriously anymore. I thought I was being polite at least in trying to explain my reasoning for that single suggestion, and even invited you to look at some of the others if that wasn't something you could vibe with. All I asked was that you listen to us and understand why 98% of people (including me who is EXTREMELY ANTI POWER CREEP to the extent even Galaxy Brains suggestion to give protector bots splash buffs made me uncertain) were all in favor of a change of that nature. I suppose I will also highlight that, being a tax, every MM already gets the IOs so the only buff would be indirect through better slotting, whereas this would be an outright increase to survivability. Amongst a mountain of blatant differences. If your next reply involves the MM thread and isn't on the MM thread, I won't reply. That isn't what we're discussing. I'm not obdurate; if you have an actual argument or communicate with me I can change my mind. So show me how this suggestion doesn't do what I said it will do, and how it's fixing a problem that exists, who cares about whatever misconceptions you have about my previous posts. Just as I did for you, try to show me why it's necessary. If anything, me supposedly being hypocritical should be a window for you to show me persuasively how our interests actually align.

Yeah that. And in the case of time there is still the trade off of the long recharge for the group self affecting buffs, which can be mitigated when your a maxed out god, but there are seriously no issues that can't be remedied when your epic level awesome and very few discussions should use that as a reference point. @Razor Cure Just because a few powers can potentially cross into self sentinel or scrapper level protection doesn't mean every buff set should. I'm not about to call for a nerf to time and nature just because they are universally super effective, but they are definitely outliers. The focus should always be on the others, and not the self, for support classes. I'm totally not down for this rotation of philosophy. And if the main justification is to persuade others to get the armor sets(which it certainly isn't for the OP at least) that's super silly. You have groups so controlling that people shun knockback, everyone better know that if your a support set and you arent picking up THE REASON YOU ARE INVITED that you're about to have a bad time. I PvP and don't really need blaster nukes, you better believe I still get them when I'm about to go PvE. Group armors are of an even higher magnitude of priority than that. A controller sitting around with maxed out resistance and eternal AoE holds. Imagine that. No no, I am vehemet on this one. Let's maintain the integrity and ~purpose~ of our classes. This is already seriously being harmed in light of a lot of OPness in the game, but even then I wouldn't call for a nerf. People should be strong; and I think it's the content that should update in compensation. But with the homogenization of roles in full swing because of it, I'm so not ok with this. What would even be the point of having intricacies and differences if the support classes are like this? They need to keep their trade offs and their focus. Especially when if they don't it will set a precedent for other ATs to go the same route. Edit: If you're referring to these changes convincing people to roll defenders and controllers and stuff rather than scrapper (as opposed to convincing defenders to get group shielding) that also wouldn't work anyway. People that want self protection and damage aren't rolling support ATs. No point in balancing around them.

Yeah! And while you're at it, increase the max number of targets on Ember Demon's Abyssal Reconstruction so you don't get punished for using Hell on Earth!

This kind of reasoning is the main reason I can't get behind the idea. We really can't be undermining the significance of those buffs; what are you trying to be, a sentinel? A scrapper? Support sets are squishies, if you want to solo on them you have to play a bit differently. And getting self heals + self +res is pretty good; you can't talk about what other things it doesn't get and suggest that because it wouldn't get those things it wouldn't actually be all that. Getting automatic capped fire res for instance as therm defender would be something else for instance. Support sets aren't supposed to be reinforced, I think this is silly. Some of the sets happen to have strong self affecting buffs, like time, and others like cold have weaker self affecting buffs that don't need to be recharged. Arctic Fog is a really good power. Therms focus is healing and +res, which nature also does to different degrees in different ways with different debuffs. I'm 100% sure this change won't happen anyway, and I'm speaking less to you than I am to everyone, but I would like to take the opportunity to express that changing the way powers work just to make things like soloing easier when the play style hasn't actually been ineffective in anyway isn't a good idea. Precedents and creep and all that.

Well, only in regards to direct support. Cold has monster debuffs that makes it by no means lacking compared to therm.

Don't get involved Don't get involved Don't get involved Don't get involved

Yes. Apex issues. Like the highest magnitude of issues. Perhaps I should have made that clearer hahahaha

We're hoping that some of the changes proposed here (like adding auras to equip that will be enhanceable) will help mitigate that particular issue. Pets die they will die, always have and even if all of our suggestions went through should die, and I don't think it was ever meant to be expected that anyone would be "keeping them alive with ease". Part of the MM experience is definitely meant to be the sacrifices you make (like involvement with heals and the subsequent endurance strain that will put, or like high offensive involvement with traps) to keep both your pets, and team, alive. The issue, however, that I think we should all be trying to fix is that regardless of what you are rolling, currently the henchmen have apex survivability and contendability issues, that stem from their level difference and general weakness, and gradually lessens as you level and become stronger. Only currently, it doesn't lessen well enough, and this is what auras are able to offset. This why they should just be added to all pets equips inherently. It won't trouble the pets thematic resistances like a straight buff to them would, and would still allow a masterminds non-MM pets to benefit uniquely from being controlled by the premier pet archetype (which is a neat benefit I think a lot of us forget). Not every secondary is going to be as compatible with MMs or able to do the same things. Otherwise every secondary would be the same. Trick arrow won't be as protecting as thermal. Side note; trick arrow is also just terrible and really should be considered an outlier until it's fixed anyway. Poison won't be as protective as cold. We need to get this "let's just make everything straight up easier without considering balance and shortcoming" penchant out of our heads, because these are suggestions that will never make the cut. That is because at the end of the day, we are primarily persuading the devs, and not just the players. You have the power of choice and vast options of power customization. There may be a set that will increase damage vastly but result in your pets dying more often. Resummoning will be a risk-reward sacrifice of that option. And if that's the case, one of your penalties will be re-equipping pets. I'm all for making pet death less of such a supreme, universal frequency, but if this auto equip suggestion is just to eliminate one of the inherent trade offs of your AT and power selection that's a serious blow to its plausibility. However it's true that sets like ninja (and less pertinent to this thread trick arrow but ill be making a MM secondary thread later) are lacking, and it's a great idea to propose improvements to their specific attributes and not cluster said shortcomings with the archetypes shortcomings. These two things are very separate, and need to be considered separate if we want a chance of any changes at all.

See, with the higher tier support core stuff like embodiment, that discount doesn't show up at all in the combat attributes.

Well IOs are usually a separate consideration from the actual attributes of the AT. I for one, can't stand that unintended disadvantage and IO viability is one of the things I've been pushing for most for MMs. That's pretty debatable, but if the community and then the devs decide that's a feasible and balanced change I wouldn't be upset. I'm not actively against it, but it does seem to be undercutting the inherent risk-rewards of being a mastermind. Controlling the pets is, of course, just the mechanic of being a MM. That doesn't alone speak to being an advantage or disadvantage without aspects that make it an advantage or disadvantage. But I do think that your suggestions about equips would be helpful, so I guess it all depends on what the developers see as acceptable a change.

@WindDemon21 I also can't get behind your suggestion of the auto-equip because of how integral they are to the feeling of progression in MMs. Unless you're saying you still purchase the power, but it's just always activated. Which would be a straight buff, you're right. But I STILL wouldn't be able to get behind it because at the end of the day, I actually like the inherent disadvantages the class has to overcome to be effective. I just don't want them to suck. The need to expend endurance often, and potential to deliberate which pets to resummon for a particular urgent instance are engaging obstacles to overcome, and would be fun if they weren't constant death sentences because the AT had problems that render it impotent. If the henchmen were in good condition, then the need to resummon them at times would just be an aspect of the archetype like blasters low survival or defenders low damage. I don't think playing MMs should be riskless, or that we should be proposing convenience based buffs that eliminate weaknesses of the class. I just don't want there to be issues that make it ineffective entirely.

This has been the point from the beginning Wind! How did I go against myself lol This is correct. MMs need to be relooked, reworked. This thread consists of proposals for doing so, and the equip changes are one of them. Maybe we've been misinterpreting each other. I agree no AT should need the auras, but again, MMs are the only AT that needs them. I don't think the minor or specific instances you mentioned will actually see themselves impeded by converting the auras. Don't forget, they'll be replaced with something else. Don't be mistaken, I'm not pushing these changes simply because I prefer MMs over trolls; I've spoken to a few. In terms of performance, they are just not impacted by these changes except for in outlier situations. See below. I agree, but I can't hammer in enough that performance in something like farms shouldn't be a component of a discussion like this. When the weakest of the control pets go up against an archvillain yeah, they're going to die. The fact that that is the only instance in which the auras actually show significance again proves my point. Especially considering they still wouldn't actually die if you were in a team with a tank and not soloing, and that if they did you could Resummon them. When you start referencing maxed out abilities in something that regards 1-50 gameplay it just becomes balancing around the elite, which is never a good idea. If we were doing that, this conversation wouldn't even be pertinent because any maxed out character is technically viable. If you slightly lose the ability to overperform for the sake of general performance elsewhere, it doesn't matter is what I'm saying. Yes, I suppose it is nice not to have to micromanage as expected, but that leisure isn't worth sacrificing easy balance changes for. Well yeah, they help if your pet's already durable. Again, it doesn't matter that you won't be as leisurely soloing AVs, if that's the reason you need auras it demonstrates perfectly that you don't need auras. With that in mind, conversion into damage or debuff procs will still actually be a straight buff to both trolls and masterminds with the correct application. Imagine your carrion being granted a reoccurring -to hit or negative energy damage with the new pet procs. It would be wonderful. This offers the opportunity for a new realm of IOs with the new Recharge Intensive and Upgrade Integral procs. Doesn't that sound great? I think it does! Thats an interesting suggestion I think I've seen a few people propose in some way. If anything, I think letting the MM ATOs get slotted into attacks would be pretty helpful too. That's one limitation both control and MMs face with ATOs, although it makes sense for them since the ATOs currently improve their CC and not damage.

You kinda proved my point though; dominators do have another means to keep him alive: CC and simply murdering everything trying to kill him. Controllers have everlasting CC and buffs. And the bigger point is, masterminds are completely dependent on every single one of their pets to survive and do their job. That is not true of the control pets, and you listing the other insane melody of different means they have like 25% base def and spirit tree just makes me further realize the huge gap between control and MM pet appeal. Not only do control pets have better stats, more or simply existing CC, but they can be resummoned immediately and with little endurance. I see why control classes don't often use the auras. Creepers literally auto die and auto revive themselves. What controller is actually running into the fray and is the sole means of keeping all the carrion and traps pets alive anyway, and can't do so with the intense CC offered by plants? Are you talking about farming? At like +4x8? Farming isn't even a given for every or even any AT, if your non-tank class ability to farm is impeded by the transformation of auras for the AT that is lacking and truly needs modification for their 1-50 ordinary gameplays feasibility, I think that is a secondary issue. A players luxury to be even more monstrously OP shouldn't be a barrier for achieving proper performance elsewhere, especially with something so minor as control pets being slightly more incredibly long lived. Of course, if your next piece of evidence shows that that is super helpful outside of highly leveled solo instances, then I'd be won over there. Despite that, my point about control pets not being necessary to control performance, however, would stand. I'm just not sold that controllers need the auras in any way. And part of this conversation is pretty much that "needing" the auras for baseline performance to begin with, needing outside additional IOs just to be viable, is stupid and needs to change. So if you can prove this caveat true, you should probably be proposing a means for innate +survivability for control pets (that they 100% do not need). Like, universal pet survivability increase without IOs. The difference between control and MM pets, especially with the instances you provided, is that the auras are not a luxury. They are a toll.

Yeah I don't think the change would. I was talking to a few controllers and it seems like a negligible bonus that they added just for reassurance. Auras seem to exist for masterminds. If you could provide specific instances of why controller/dom pets need the auras it would possibly help. Spiders? Like the VEATS? Their abilities don't hinge on their pet survivability at all so I don't consider them in this discussion. It'd be like saying "but wait my blood widow summon as a scrapper will be slightly less durable". And even without auras, their pets are *still* way more resilient than mastermind pets. To the extent I would honestly say if your using auras on VEATS you are probably wasting slots. Again, if you could give specific instances suggesting otherwise, that could change the argument a bit.

Lol no the original idea was to remove the other 4 auras and put it into the upgrades, a concept which would transform into whatever the community decided it would be. Expedient and Sovereign are recharge intensive, not ATOs. If everyone decided doing it with solely the defensive ATOs would be better overall, I would be in favor of that. I'm fine with any useful degree of buff in the equips. I know that putting the other 4 into equip and upgrade would save 4 tax slots. A lot of people seem in favor of that, and having the current auras replaced with procs of some kind. I wasn't aware any troller pets actually needed the auras; they have way higher survivability. But if they did, that could just be fixed by leaving recharge intensive pet IOs the way they are, but removing the option to slot them in masterminds. Players that actually used the Rech Intensive enhancements would find themselves able to use the new Upgrade Integral Pets IOs which have the same set bonuses and come with procs like what I mentioned on page one. If we are keeping the non ATO res and def auras, these would come in resistance, def, and damage set's and be slottable in henchmen equips and the henchmen summons. This seems like a lot more though, especially since controll pets are quite strong. Between the higher base resistances and the controller/doms ability to CC enemies and buff, I was under no impression any troller was in need of those auras. And in this case they would get an assortment of procs instead.

Ohhhh you'll have to forgive me, I didn't quite understand what you were saying at the time. I think I get it now; I believe you are saying that the slot would be used for the IO is usually used for -end enhancement, right? This could be easily remedied by simply reducing the endurance cost. That's a great suggestion on your part. And with these changes going through (higher survivability of pets through equip buffs, level being the same as caster) in combat summoning and requipping should be lower anyway. Sorry bout that. You kind of lost me here. The IO's I was referring to were the non-existing proposed IOs that would go into the newly buffed equip powers. Naturally, as the change to make equips add def and res were to replace the current auras (besides the ATO), the current aura's would cease to provide def/res buffs and would do something else. I would like to see them converted into procs or something, but I think that's something for us all to discuss.