Monos King

Well, only in regards to direct support. Cold has monster debuffs that makes it by no means lacking compared to therm.

Don't get involved Don't get involved Don't get involved Don't get involved

Yes. Apex issues. Like the highest magnitude of issues. Perhaps I should have made that clearer hahahaha

We're hoping that some of the changes proposed here (like adding auras to equip that will be enhanceable) will help mitigate that particular issue. Pets die they will die, always have and even if all of our suggestions went through should die, and I don't think it was ever meant to be expected that anyone would be "keeping them alive with ease". Part of the MM experience is definitely meant to be the sacrifices you make (like involvement with heals and the subsequent endurance strain that will put, or like high offensive involvement with traps) to keep both your pets, and team, alive. The issue, however, that I think we should all be trying to fix is that regardless of what you are rolling, currently the henchmen have apex survivability and contendability issues, that stem from their level difference and general weakness, and gradually lessens as you level and become stronger. Only currently, it doesn't lessen well enough, and this is what auras are able to offset. This why they should just be added to all pets equips inherently. It won't trouble the pets thematic resistances like a straight buff to them would, and would still allow a masterminds non-MM pets to benefit uniquely from being controlled by the premier pet archetype (which is a neat benefit I think a lot of us forget). Not every secondary is going to be as compatible with MMs or able to do the same things. Otherwise every secondary would be the same. Trick arrow won't be as protecting as thermal. Side note; trick arrow is also just terrible and really should be considered an outlier until it's fixed anyway. Poison won't be as protective as cold. We need to get this "let's just make everything straight up easier without considering balance and shortcoming" penchant out of our heads, because these are suggestions that will never make the cut. That is because at the end of the day, we are primarily persuading the devs, and not just the players. You have the power of choice and vast options of power customization. There may be a set that will increase damage vastly but result in your pets dying more often. Resummoning will be a risk-reward sacrifice of that option. And if that's the case, one of your penalties will be re-equipping pets. I'm all for making pet death less of such a supreme, universal frequency, but if this auto equip suggestion is just to eliminate one of the inherent trade offs of your AT and power selection that's a serious blow to its plausibility. However it's true that sets like ninja (and less pertinent to this thread trick arrow but ill be making a MM secondary thread later) are lacking, and it's a great idea to propose improvements to their specific attributes and not cluster said shortcomings with the archetypes shortcomings. These two things are very separate, and need to be considered separate if we want a chance of any changes at all.

See, with the higher tier support core stuff like embodiment, that discount doesn't show up at all in the combat attributes.

Well IOs are usually a separate consideration from the actual attributes of the AT. I for one, can't stand that unintended disadvantage and IO viability is one of the things I've been pushing for most for MMs. That's pretty debatable, but if the community and then the devs decide that's a feasible and balanced change I wouldn't be upset. I'm not actively against it, but it does seem to be undercutting the inherent risk-rewards of being a mastermind. Controlling the pets is, of course, just the mechanic of being a MM. That doesn't alone speak to being an advantage or disadvantage without aspects that make it an advantage or disadvantage. But I do think that your suggestions about equips would be helpful, so I guess it all depends on what the developers see as acceptable a change.

@WindDemon21 I also can't get behind your suggestion of the auto-equip because of how integral they are to the feeling of progression in MMs. Unless you're saying you still purchase the power, but it's just always activated. Which would be a straight buff, you're right. But I STILL wouldn't be able to get behind it because at the end of the day, I actually like the inherent disadvantages the class has to overcome to be effective. I just don't want them to suck. The need to expend endurance often, and potential to deliberate which pets to resummon for a particular urgent instance are engaging obstacles to overcome, and would be fun if they weren't constant death sentences because the AT had problems that render it impotent. If the henchmen were in good condition, then the need to resummon them at times would just be an aspect of the archetype like blasters low survival or defenders low damage. I don't think playing MMs should be riskless, or that we should be proposing convenience based buffs that eliminate weaknesses of the class. I just don't want there to be issues that make it ineffective entirely.

This has been the point from the beginning Wind! How did I go against myself lol This is correct. MMs need to be relooked, reworked. This thread consists of proposals for doing so, and the equip changes are one of them. Maybe we've been misinterpreting each other. I agree no AT should need the auras, but again, MMs are the only AT that needs them. I don't think the minor or specific instances you mentioned will actually see themselves impeded by converting the auras. Don't forget, they'll be replaced with something else. Don't be mistaken, I'm not pushing these changes simply because I prefer MMs over trolls; I've spoken to a few. In terms of performance, they are just not impacted by these changes except for in outlier situations. See below. I agree, but I can't hammer in enough that performance in something like farms shouldn't be a component of a discussion like this. When the weakest of the control pets go up against an archvillain yeah, they're going to die. The fact that that is the only instance in which the auras actually show significance again proves my point. Especially considering they still wouldn't actually die if you were in a team with a tank and not soloing, and that if they did you could Resummon them. When you start referencing maxed out abilities in something that regards 1-50 gameplay it just becomes balancing around the elite, which is never a good idea. If we were doing that, this conversation wouldn't even be pertinent because any maxed out character is technically viable. If you slightly lose the ability to overperform for the sake of general performance elsewhere, it doesn't matter is what I'm saying. Yes, I suppose it is nice not to have to micromanage as expected, but that leisure isn't worth sacrificing easy balance changes for. Well yeah, they help if your pet's already durable. Again, it doesn't matter that you won't be as leisurely soloing AVs, if that's the reason you need auras it demonstrates perfectly that you don't need auras. With that in mind, conversion into damage or debuff procs will still actually be a straight buff to both trolls and masterminds with the correct application. Imagine your carrion being granted a reoccurring -to hit or negative energy damage with the new pet procs. It would be wonderful. This offers the opportunity for a new realm of IOs with the new Recharge Intensive and Upgrade Integral procs. Doesn't that sound great? I think it does! Thats an interesting suggestion I think I've seen a few people propose in some way. If anything, I think letting the MM ATOs get slotted into attacks would be pretty helpful too. That's one limitation both control and MMs face with ATOs, although it makes sense for them since the ATOs currently improve their CC and not damage.

You kinda proved my point though; dominators do have another means to keep him alive: CC and simply murdering everything trying to kill him. Controllers have everlasting CC and buffs. And the bigger point is, masterminds are completely dependent on every single one of their pets to survive and do their job. That is not true of the control pets, and you listing the other insane melody of different means they have like 25% base def and spirit tree just makes me further realize the huge gap between control and MM pet appeal. Not only do control pets have better stats, more or simply existing CC, but they can be resummoned immediately and with little endurance. I see why control classes don't often use the auras. Creepers literally auto die and auto revive themselves. What controller is actually running into the fray and is the sole means of keeping all the carrion and traps pets alive anyway, and can't do so with the intense CC offered by plants? Are you talking about farming? At like +4x8? Farming isn't even a given for every or even any AT, if your non-tank class ability to farm is impeded by the transformation of auras for the AT that is lacking and truly needs modification for their 1-50 ordinary gameplays feasibility, I think that is a secondary issue. A players luxury to be even more monstrously OP shouldn't be a barrier for achieving proper performance elsewhere, especially with something so minor as control pets being slightly more incredibly long lived. Of course, if your next piece of evidence shows that that is super helpful outside of highly leveled solo instances, then I'd be won over there. Despite that, my point about control pets not being necessary to control performance, however, would stand. I'm just not sold that controllers need the auras in any way. And part of this conversation is pretty much that "needing" the auras for baseline performance to begin with, needing outside additional IOs just to be viable, is stupid and needs to change. So if you can prove this caveat true, you should probably be proposing a means for innate +survivability for control pets (that they 100% do not need). Like, universal pet survivability increase without IOs. The difference between control and MM pets, especially with the instances you provided, is that the auras are not a luxury. They are a toll.

Yeah I don't think the change would. I was talking to a few controllers and it seems like a negligible bonus that they added just for reassurance. Auras seem to exist for masterminds. If you could provide specific instances of why controller/dom pets need the auras it would possibly help. Spiders? Like the VEATS? Their abilities don't hinge on their pet survivability at all so I don't consider them in this discussion. It'd be like saying "but wait my blood widow summon as a scrapper will be slightly less durable". And even without auras, their pets are *still* way more resilient than mastermind pets. To the extent I would honestly say if your using auras on VEATS you are probably wasting slots. Again, if you could give specific instances suggesting otherwise, that could change the argument a bit.

Lol no the original idea was to remove the other 4 auras and put it into the upgrades, a concept which would transform into whatever the community decided it would be. Expedient and Sovereign are recharge intensive, not ATOs. If everyone decided doing it with solely the defensive ATOs would be better overall, I would be in favor of that. I'm fine with any useful degree of buff in the equips. I know that putting the other 4 into equip and upgrade would save 4 tax slots. A lot of people seem in favor of that, and having the current auras replaced with procs of some kind. I wasn't aware any troller pets actually needed the auras; they have way higher survivability. But if they did, that could just be fixed by leaving recharge intensive pet IOs the way they are, but removing the option to slot them in masterminds. Players that actually used the Rech Intensive enhancements would find themselves able to use the new Upgrade Integral Pets IOs which have the same set bonuses and come with procs like what I mentioned on page one. If we are keeping the non ATO res and def auras, these would come in resistance, def, and damage set's and be slottable in henchmen equips and the henchmen summons. This seems like a lot more though, especially since controll pets are quite strong. Between the higher base resistances and the controller/doms ability to CC enemies and buff, I was under no impression any troller was in need of those auras. And in this case they would get an assortment of procs instead.

Ohhhh you'll have to forgive me, I didn't quite understand what you were saying at the time. I think I get it now; I believe you are saying that the slot would be used for the IO is usually used for -end enhancement, right? This could be easily remedied by simply reducing the endurance cost. That's a great suggestion on your part. And with these changes going through (higher survivability of pets through equip buffs, level being the same as caster) in combat summoning and requipping should be lower anyway. Sorry bout that. You kind of lost me here. The IO's I was referring to were the non-existing proposed IOs that would go into the newly buffed equip powers. Naturally, as the change to make equips add def and res were to replace the current auras (besides the ATO), the current aura's would cease to provide def/res buffs and would do something else. I would like to see them converted into procs or something, but I think that's something for us all to discuss.

Oh yeah no doubt. The protectors and enforcers get their +def by the first equip though right? I'm not against this idea by a long shot, definitely just needs more player reception to decide. If everyone ends up liking that I'm all for it.

lol that is correct. You would also not be getting a ranged damage buff, a heal buff, a chance to crit, higher hold magnitude, or any other specificity of playing a mastermind that other archetypes receive. Because we weren't discussing end reduction. You can always point out what wasn't being discussed, but you can't just slide it in as if that were relevant to the subject matter in any way. That would best be left for a separate reply. I'm going out of my way to make note of these issues with your suggestions because such suggestions will simply never occur; not on a server concerned with any sort of balance or connection to the original game that people chose to play. Calls to remove the main handicaps/nuances of classes will be totally ignored 100% of the time, unless there was lasting grounds for contention like the damage difference between brutes and tanks. We can't do that because it would start to impede on the relevance of buffs secondaries. Otherwise we couldn't let them be enhanceable, and the idea for the new IO set pretty much dies. I think this is an interesting idea, although it definitely depends on the playstyle. Generally, it would be bettter to get the pets sooner because of how much less damage the extra pet makes you take in bodyguard mode.

Hmmm. I think your misunderstanding the change in how they would be from how they are. There is really no way that these change would continue the pattern of slot taxing, I had removing slot tax in mind specifically when I proposed them. We aren't catering to your specific play style or personal feelings about what you'll feel pressed to do when your pets die. We're trying to remedy the general shortcomings and get necessary buffs. We're improving what has been; you're pretty much saying that even if we do improve, your going to want your pets even stronger so now it's a penalty to do so. That's just preference. That's ok, you can slot for that, but we can't consider that preference with archetype/enhancement wide changes. Here's the gist of it. Right now, you need to clear 6 slots for aura buffs that are mandatory for pet survival. With the training buff change: Res/def aura buffs split between the two Equip and Upgrade training abilities All powers have one slot by default, thus even one invention enhancement will be a straight *buff* to the existing numbers from the proposed mandatory lower values. Proposed new IO set will maintain existing aura strength as well as provide possibility for debuff res or something of that nature As compared to now: 4 slots saved (archetype origins wont be changed) If you decide that you want even more res/def on your pets and decide to slot the equips further with that in mind, that is not a mandatory slit; it's ordinary slotting. But if this went through, it would be, with one enhancement, the same strength auras, no cost, available far earlier, room for new IOs. As far as I know, we all agree that the current values of auras are quite good. Hence why they are considered tax to begin with.

Can't say I'm in favor of those changes, I like the involvement of MMs. Also it would kind of just be removing one of the inherent trade-offs of the set, it's kind of like having all of a defenders buffs be automatic because it's tedious to do that and attack debuff as well. It's just apart of the archetype, I'd rather get necessary hard buffs and IO compatibility improvements. They wouldn't be enhanceable in Supremacy. They would just be present, in the same way the dmg and to hit buffs are. Low levels very rarely even have access to the auras anyway, so it should just be generally more effective. There wouldn't be any need to waste slots for the auras, or money/merits. They would, however, be enhanceable when put into the equip/training powers, which would hopefully come with new IOs like the ones I had proposed. I'm more fond of this idea than the built into supremacy idea now.

I don't know about all that, but may I would love to see your opinions on the proposals listed here: I happen to like the feeling of progression with training the pets each time, and if some of the changes listed above go through you'll definitely want to be applying them personally anyway.

Whoa, you actively consider slows from an ice blaster in your gameplay? That's really impressive. As I stated before though, it's practically negligible. Both slow and end drain on the blast route are overshadowed by damage until the effects stack. Elec actually gets a big debuff with short circuit, making it technically better at debuffing, even. I don't recall Frost Breath or the Ice Rain power offering any significantly better slow. And even if the supposed imbalance were true, these changes would just shift -end from purportedly lacking to intensely better than something like slow until it also gets a buff. And the cycle continues elsewhere. I mean imagine blasters, who can already be considered lords of the pitch and the most coveted, entering a room and not only dying the floors red but leaving the survivors utterly helpless, because their secondary effect is now essentially a CC. Slows don't stop recharge. Once you get the enemies bar down though, that's a wrap. The advantage difference warrants the initial difference in value between slow and -end. Buutttt I'm a big fan of both the critical drainage and the ideas you just suggested in concept. If I'm choosing one I think won't set any ill precedent or have repercussions, I would really like to see your recovery scourge suggestion.

I second this heavily!

On the released servers, clicking on a power will activate the combat-only aura, which is of course useful when you want to show off your aura. Even if no hostiles are nearby, simply clicking on an attack move will cause the aura to initiate. This is not currently the case on beta, and the auras deactivate immediately after defeating a hostile rather than the usual few seconds of activation afterwards.

It's worth noting that, again I'm not opposed to critical drainage, but the reasoning for it's necessity seems like it might be going down an iffy road.

I don't see any issue with that because of how total and perfect full end drain is. Slow is a good comparison because it also comes with two effects; -speed and -rech and the strong end drains come with -end and -recovery. A blaster using ice blast could be said to do the same; that -rech isn't going to mean anything at all until it stacks a lot and by then the enemy is usually dead. But like elec, it will shine fully on more durable enemies. This is because the two of them are not CCs. They aren't in the same category as holds, stun, immobilize, sleep, the like. So we shouldn't be comparing them to things like holds at all I don't think. They just happen to be disabling of offenses in the same way -res and -def is disabling of defenses. For what end drain is, it is great. Once I get an enemy down to zero end they are staying there essentially no matter what, whereas with holds things like immunities or protections have the ability to play in. That's -ends advantage. And end technically does have an affect before full drainage, although this is highly mitigated by NPC low end costs. Certain abilities should be costing too much endurance to use even before drainage. I think what should happen is that NPCs get a decent +recovery buff, but their powers, especially strong ones or buffs, start taking A LOT more end. The +recovery would be there to offset the new end costs and prevent even non drainers from quickly exhausting NPCs as well as to make the -recovery of elec more pronounced in it's usefulness, and then -end would start to see more use as at even half end lieutenants and minions would see themselves unable to activate more end heavy abilities.

I like the critical drain idea, but I think endurance drain is plenty fine how it is now. I'm pretty sure the bigger issue is that everything is obligatorily put through the helpless-death test where if it isn't 2 second killing after a quick hold it's deemed useless because damage is king and holds are uber accessible. "Can it kill them...now?" This kind of becomes a game difficulty conversation once it's viewed from that lense. Have you guys specced high -end moves? It's debilitating, Thunderous Blast alone can leech an EB end instantly and render everyone more helpless to status effects if they ran toggles. Electrical blast otherwise is in the same zone as other blasts with debuffs; the debuff is secondary and minor. It wouldn't make sense to give it a critical drainage off of the power alone (maybe doms and trolls) just as it wouldn't make sense to give ice blast critical slows. And various enemies have high immunity to literal immunity to slows. Holds are the ultimate CC when potent, we aren't going to get every debuff there. I'm with @Yomo Kimyata , they are potent in different scenarios. I for one like total drainage more than holds, and continuously comparing everything to damage life4ever and hold-haven is probably going to cause issues since those are way too effective in the current game, to a point of spawning debates.

Can you even do that right now? What's the absorb cap, I know it's not all that. @Tyrannical Granted it could be changed, but this seems like a lot just to update powers for conceptual reasons; especially when doing so without theoretically harming their efficiency in the HP -> Absorb transfer involves large ticks of re-applied absorb that isn't really thematically appropriate to begin with. I'm really all for keeping HP powers the way they are now. Let's not forget you can hasten the reapplication of simple HP buffs through healing, whereas separate absorbs hardly overlap and can only be strengthened through another +absorb. What I'm saying is, if I cast frostwork on a pet for instance, I can have it maintain the benefit through simple healing. I can heal the increased health. But if frostwork were an absorb with +regen and an absorb over time tick, once that absorb gets blown off I can't really do anything to give back the benefit. The best I could do is wait the downtime to recast the buff. All of that is assuming the new frostwork operated like Spirit Bastion, where the absorb doesn't stack. If the absorb did stack, and eventually climbed up to the initial absorb buff, this would be a straight buff.

Don't know if recent changes screwed with his AI, but the Demon Prince waits about 3-4 seconds before attacking randomly but consistently, despite the fact his powers have recharged. Reduces overall damage from demons greatly.