Monos King

So, in light of Electrical Affinity and all the new degrees of debilitating -end that's going to unleash, I want to bring up something underperforming in PvP. Slows Slows just aren't worth their salt in PvP. -Movement doesn't seem to do a single thing over there, and every other IO comes with slow res to only heighten the issue. Now, I don't know whatever pretenses caused PvP IOs to all come with heaps of slow res, so I won't have any complaints there. Especially since if these changes go through, it won't be an issue as much anyway. Let's take a second to consider: Reducing the PvP rech res cap to 95% in line with all the other debuff res Increasing the strength of -movement debuffs on debuff-centered powers for PvP, similar to what currently happens with -regen debuffs like Heat Exhaustion or Envenom I think that's fair. Everyone goes zipping about in zones right now, kiting and the likes, usually blasters, and controllers have little relevance outside of very specific scenarios. I think starting with making slows actually MEAN something would be a good first step in allowing all the archetypes to have a degree of relevancy again. Obviously, we aren't going to see trolls 1v1ing (competent) blasters or scrappers like ever, but not everything is a 1v1. One of masterminds biggest issues is being thrall to chase tactics, giving them something other than unreliable immobilize (which really only helps if it's web grenade anyway) wouldn't hurt at all. Frankly, the fact that people can walk around IMMUNE to a cold doms primary debuff is ridiculous, and it's no wonder people don't roll support as much in PvP. Some of my stuff can be literally ignored, and that's without the intense numbers of recharge that most PvPers jump around with. Am I wrong on this one?

May I direct you to....

I'd like to follow this statement with that while I do think the beasts do single target damage well, they should probably use some of their war-cry buffs within combat. Spit Suggestion: heavily reduce damage buff on one of the roars and give it a "bleed" or "lethal wound" proc that functions sort of like Frost Bite but with a greater damage.

Luckily, that is one of the proposals here we've been pushing for!

Well it does make sense to me, but I'm not against making some of the pool powers less suck. I did address the storm kick thing though, being a martial arts master for whatever mystical or elite means is definitely beyond the likes of just fighting. My theory is that that pool just existed to give the non-damage non melees some moves for thematic purpose before the desired res/def buffs. Or just fluff if you want an extra attack. Flurry shouldn't be as bad as it is lol, although it is pretty good in PvP. But if my theory of pools is right, since the travels were the objective that's still why flurry sucks. I know what they were trying to do; since speedsters are known to hit fast but not strong. It really does affirm they made it for thematic purpose beyond anything else, and deliberately wanted the first moves to suck, with hasten being that odd outlier. It's silly it sucks that much though. So it's likely moves are bad right now from pools because 1) their fiction deems them less potent 2) they just exist as thematic supplements (besides PvP where most of them actually do deal good damage and such). Just look at cross punch. It isn't until the final level of fighting you unlock it, and it's literally just Sweeping Cross from Street Justice with some +acc and +rech. No melee would ever actually turn in their primary moves for a pool variant, because in their current state, they aren't alternative abilities.

Well I haven't been apart of any pool power conversations before and I find it interesting so here's how I've seen the placement of pool powers. I always thought they were simply thematically potent. You know, something like hasten being really good because super speed is a much coveted, much esteemed power. The same with sorcery, which gets Rune of Protection, and presence which gets unrelenting (those last two were in the original dev plans so I include them). Then there's something like fighting, which would obviously pale in comparison to our super-powered combat like super strength or martial arts, so it sucks until the last power. I also thought most of the travels existed solely to offer transportation, and the first few powers were more like a mandatory step to sustain a sense progression in the game. Slow, steady hover as you like learned to fly. Low, lax jumps as you gained control. Utility seemed completely secondary. So while I think there are abilities other than hasten that are useful from pools, I'm pretty sure the pools that are lacking always existed for the sake of the end tier abilities, the early abilities being just progress steps. Changing that might start having a lot of pools be replacements for actual primary and secondary powers. And if that's the case, we're discussing making pools alternative abilities rather than supplemental ones, which is also an interesting conversation.

Oh, well I'd agree. No doubt. It seemed like he was taking it in a "let's make all the other leading pool powers similarly useful" direction, which is probably on the same road as power creep since that use in question is dependent on community set paradigms. Buuuttt I see that isn't the case. Ignore me hahaha

That's really only because players have made it that way, right? I don't actually need hasten for any of my builds. Depending on your priorities some abilities will be more useful than others. Hastens definitely super useful but it's not like that makes all other pools useless by comparison or that they all have to be as potent as it is.

I really like the idea of the additional pet for mercs, while I like improved serums as well. A lot of the merc suggestions seem like they would actually over-compensate for its weaknesses though, and make them pretty overpowered. It should be worth noting that I'm all for being extremely powerful, but it's probably a bit too much if more than two of those suggestions were implemented for mercs. I agree with letting passive mode split damage, but I'm fine with the current state of defensive mode, the rewards of being in defensive mode make up for the usual lack of concentrated damage. Having damage split along with "attack my target" for instance is too effective in a few instances (for instance fighting another MM), and kind of mitigates the purpose of those that use the hide in the back and let pets run in tactic, as just camping in defensive mode would always be the ideal alternative. It also makes sense, you can't really be in defensive when your ordering everyone to concentrate on damaging one person. It's a fine risk-reward for the archetype IMO.

Well, progress. Technically just back to stage 1 but with less, but it's a start. Any reason the player proc is officially removed? I think people will be happy with this.

I quite like the idea of sleep shining more frequently, or even getting improved after effects, though I imagine it would be some work. However, let's not forget this is not a thread soley, or even primarily, about the utility of sleep. @Captain Powerhouse There is still a great deal of explanation in regards to proc changes on the MM side of things that is required. Preferably an announcement of reversal. As well as on the greater plans for procs that are rendered useless by changes of this nature.

I would love to learn that sleep has a greater application than I'd thought. However, it currently seems that even the developers I have been debating with agree that sleep requires a rework. If you could provide more evidence of the contrary, that would actually save us a lot of time and effort. My understanding of sleep is heavily based off of the reception I've gotten asking the experienced, and in more general situations. I'm more prioritized on the MM IO debacle myself currently, and I think the people over at Blackfeather's referenced thread would probably need to hear it most. But I wouldn't mind seeing said evidence here either.

Agreed. That MM above is completely unbeatable in 1v1 right now. Like, genuinely. The end drain is inescapable and vast.

Just dropping in to say Defibrillate is a whee drop too potent in PvP instances after static is wracked up; not sure if that's been touched upon yet but there's some images in this thread here:

They actually changed Gaussian's and Soulbound before Sandman, which is curious (and appalling) as it didn't change the way it functions for players, just the pets it is slotted in. According to my poll, there isn't any desire to add new pet IOs amongst the forum majority. And those that did want new pet IOs didn't have any ideas as to what they would like added. So loosing boost up is a big bash for current and future pet related IOing with no big picture established. I frankly can't think of any end goal that would even make this necessary or acceptable to begin with, less they were going to add a new universal damage unique that did the same thing. I think feedback speaks for itself that all of these changes need to just get reversed.

Whoa that's an interesting thought. Removing the minion rank at certain difficulties. Either not spawning certain minions at all, or upgrading them; making sappers Lieutenants or something?

Yeah it's about like that, as long as by caster you mean the enforcers themselves. Enforcers do in fact have the 80% dmg scale, t1 pets gets 60% and the big boy pet gets 100% value, just for future reference. Big boy and fodder pets don't get to hit modifiers (accept for wolves, who can't actually slot Gaussian's for whatever reason) so they can't even use Boost Up from it anyway.

lol whoops. I was just bouncing off of what you said and stating why I don't think that would be a good reasoning on HC teams end. I was replying to you, but addressing everyone with that argument I kept seeing. Sorry about that confusion. I don't think I ever said Gaussian's wasn't worth much, I'm rather sure I've repeatedly reiterated it is quite helpful. When I said it isn't "that good", I meant as in not OP. I'm pretty sure we're on the same side here.

I considered that, but Gaussian's isn't even that good. It's a beneficial way of increasing damage and more importantly to hit in the support class Enforcers, but other pets from different primaries should have their own unique abilities, and thus, different IOs. If the ability to have Boost Up were such a deciding outlier, than the balance between certain damaging powers would've been disrupted long ago. It's just a attack boost. Grave Knights and Jounin without it still do more damage than enforcers with it. If IOs are going to be worked on for MMs, then like I said there should have been a notice so we didn't all freak out. It's like they don't actually understand the significance of these changes or the issues for MMs with IOs. And I really don't want to hear another "well that's not what it was ever supposed to do" comment. Not only is that just not true, but even if it were we are CLEARLY distancing ourselves from original intentions to benefit the game. The devs and I share that opinion, that change is ineluctable and can be positive. So let's stop pretending that we are being limited by upsetting strict constructions of nebulous intentions.

Thanks for that @Blackfeather , it doesn't look like the sleep IO conversation is going anywhere now. What should be drawn from all of this is: Sleep powers in general are vastly inferior to every other Status effect, and should be reworked to bare any signifiance As of now, the only real utility sleep powers had was to act as carriers for the heal "Call of the Sandman" Call of the Sandman, when firing off only once, in any circumstance, is effectively useless. Call of the Sandman needs to be reworked as a proc (as well as all procs like it that cannot be slotted into auto powers.) The state of Sandman and sleep as of now is simply unacceptable, so if there are long term plans, they should at the very least be stated to be in design or in development before changes like this with no warning. The issue with the Pet IO's and pet relevant IOs are still in face down position. Suggestions on those, or for a look at some proposals can be found at this thread:

I'm willing to concede on the notion, primarily because it is secondary to my big issue with mastermind related procs. I've already made my point on the matter, if the dev team isn't going to shift the paradigm on IO situational benefit or compatibilities, in spite community preference, I'll let other people make further cases. I highly doubt, however, that the explanation for Gaussian's and Soulbound will have such a crutch to stand on. And the issue surrounding MM IO viability is a far more prevalent conversation that needs to be addressed anyhow. I'll just wait for @Captain Powerhouse.

I think it is wise to shut down purist arguments. It allows us to move into an era where necessary changes can be made for the benefit of everyone. I haven't once made the "well the original devs made it this way, so it should stay this way" argument. I believe that is counter-productive, as things have very much changed. I will, however, cite their intentions when something is labeled a glitch or acceptable to the games balance. Their rulings then still hold relevance. What I have been mentioning from that era, however, is the effectiveness of certain procs. That they were not deemed a problem then, and in the Homecoming Age of Leniency, most certainly should not be considered one now. Noteworthy in that category is Gaussian's providing pets with Boost Up, and Soulbound shortly providing players with Boost Up. These two procs have had, even to this very moment, no explanation for their change. I am adamant in the belief it was a pointless alteration, and should be reversed. Sandman's newfound effectiveness contrasts definitely with the puritist attachments to live rules, and you yourself have suggested that there is little intention to stay tethered to them. I agree, that any argument latched to them is invalid. So let's not waste time with the fact that their original intention wasn't to be a strong heal, their original intention sucked. So with that in mind, I think it would help to look at the instances of using Sleep abilities with theft slotted in for reference. Let's look at their base recharge times. Mass Hypnosis: 1 min 30 sec, let's bring it down to 26 factoring in 120% rech enhancements and 137% recharge buffs. Big values. Salt Crystals: Same changes as above, around 26 sec Spore Burst: 13 sec Static Field: 11.5 Static Field is a pseudo pet so it doesn't even activate in the way it would with the others, so I won't consider it. Controllers maximum health is 1606.35. 1 Sandman fire would provide 80 health. The highest amount of targets any of these can hit at once is 16. So at most, with these EXTREMELY exaggerated values, a controller will benefit is 1,280, at potentially every 13 seconds. That seems like a lot until you remember a power boosted troll using something like Twilight Grasp heals 946 every 3, 1892 every 6, 2838 every 9. On top of various other buffs, on top of debuffs, on top of the fact that I took almost peak values of benefit from sandman and assuming it hits every target. Speaking in reality, it isn't OP. It's just helpful. So there is no need to change it. In the case of tanks using Salt Crystals, it is effective. I will hand that one over, as a maxed out tank will heal to full health assuming he doesn't miss every 26 seconds. But on the account that tanks survivability is already god tier, this fact makes almost no difference. So with the knowledge that Sandman isn't OP, isn't complained about by players, and the fact that the original intentions are a total non factor here...why change the proc? Why change any of these?

That was a joke. My actual points are still valid. The current changes to Sandman being better than they were on the live server is also rather meaningless, because if that's the case it just means they are slightly less pointless to get as compared to live. Evidently, changes to its efficiency were needed. Based off of what you said, these changes were made, and were now rescinded. That recent rescindment really warrants reversal. Soulbound still needs to be put back to the way it was because there was no reason for it to be changed. It just accentuates the already troublesome MM IO situation. Gaussians need to be put back for the same reason. Unless there is some grand plan that's intended to perfect IOs for MMs and the lot that would make these changes understandable and needed from the future foreground, this is just a big, needless, upset. And if there IS that grand plan, it would make more sense to install all these changes at once with full player awareness of said improvements so we can avoid tremors like this one. Right now it just looks like isolated deprecations that underscore existing issues.

Regardless of the reception to aura changes, there are a lot of other changes that would be effective at solving problems. I'm curious as to how people felt about giving Lich containment and Self Soul Extraction.

Noted the same thing, happening in every zone.