Sovera

All sets care about Rage drop. Perhaps at most Invulnerability since it's such a beast. Don't fall into the mistake of thinking that resistance armors don't care about defense because they do. At 50% base chance for hitting us the mobs gain another 20%. We go from being hit 50% of the time to being hit 70% of the time. When that happens we take more damage and 90% resistances stop being enough. At that point kill fast or be in trouble. Oshi-... Right ,we can't hit things for 10 whole seconds when Rage drops 😄 Anyway, jokes aside, for regular play the Rage drop is not that bad depending on when it happens. If it happens as we go to another pack of mobs and we jump in, debuffed, unable to damage them, then yeah, bad. But if it happens once we are down to 3-4 mobs then its okay. Also teams can handle th mobs even if we can't damage them. The unpredictability of it since we only have a tiny icon without even a timer on it, is what kills the set for me. If I had a nice timer I could just glance and see when the drop is happening I could at least plan around it. But it just happens too often and it's too annoying. No damage -or- defense drop. Not both. Super-Strength is nothing special that it deserves such drawbacks, but like Stone Armor it's an old mechanic. A common trick is keeping Hand Clap for Rage drops. KD with Footstomp, Handclap for CC, whittle away those 10 seconds of waiting.

EM has poor AoE and its heavy hitter only comes at 38. Oh, hello there Fire Armor... Katana works very well. Hard hitting, nice place for FF procs. Decent AoE. It's main sin for me is that it exemplars like crap with both heavy hitters at 35 and 38. One of those should have been at level 28 to space things out. But if you don't intend to exemplar its otherwise great. Pair it with resistance armors for extra defense (doesn't stack unlike for other ATs) or just ignore Divine Avalanche on a defense based set.

Sad as it may be if you're going to ignore Rage you might as well not play Super Strength. The saving grace of the set is Rage and without it no optimizing will save it. Look perhaps into something like Martial Arts (some of the animations can be replaced by crude punches that have no bearing whatsoever with martials arts) or if you can bear the FX then Energy Melee (sadly no FX option). Sadly not much option for super strong animations that don't look like martial arts (Street Justice, even Martial Arts will still do fancy kicks since not all animations can be replaced). I suggest giving Energy Melee a stab and color the pompoms the darkest shade you can, that usually makes FX near not noticeable and you can then RP it as super strength.

No inspiration used, no clickies either. It was just a test of -res VS damage procs done in a vacuum.

Where I have 'damage procs' I have the build I posted. Where I have '-res procs' I have an Achilles in CAK and a Fury of the Gladiator in Burn. I calculated 5-8% by doing a run with -res procs for 5 minutes then see what the AV's HP is. Then do another run but with damage procs. The AV's HP is 30.600 so I deduct the current HP at the 5 minute mark from the total HP and see what percentage of damage I did. I then look at the difference between the -res and the damage proc run and see the % separating both. Looking at Neuron, for example, with the -res run I did 67% damage to him. The damage proc run did 61% damage to him. So without overcomplicating it I call it 5% more damage by having used -res procs over damage procs.

Not yet, today was a different set of testing.

But... the one who died in less than five minutes and the one who only had 18% shaved off both had the same 5-8% despite wildly different resistances. Regardless and to get to the bottom of it (I hope you appreciate the effort, @Bill Z Bubba!) Neuron: Black Swan: Chimera: Nightstar: Booyah, no wonder 5 minutes of wailing on her was only 18%. Tested on a Martial Arts so all Smash damage. CAK, Storm Kick, Crane Kick, Storm Kick. Burn when ever it is up.

But you see this is the testing I am trying to make. I'm trying to ask Bopper if the 5-8% damage boost is 40%+ for the team or not. I have no clue so I'm asking better heads. As my example above giving a boss a 5% damage debuff in WoW means just that. 5%. Not 5% multiplied by the whole raid, suddenly the boss taking 5%x20 persons = 100% extra damage boss. I don't need to tell you it doesn't work that way. The boss is simply taking 5% more damage. IS a single someone with the -res procs slotted actually multiplying everyone's damage? Are they instead giving an additive buff? Multiplicative and additive are not the same. In CoH? -res involved? Who da heck knows. Not me 😄

I don't think that the AV's resistances matter. If you look at the list there were quite the opposites of the spectrum. Some AVs were so resilient that after 5 minutes I only took 18% HP. Some were so squishy I actually killed in 5 minutes. But the % of the damage increase from having both -res procs remained consistent averaging a 5-8% damage boost over damage procs. I went to do a quick test on a pylon. Swapping both -res procs for damage procs my 3 minute kill build turned into 4:03 - 4:20 minutes. This is not a 5-8% increase. If I am not sucking too much in mathing it's a 25% damage boost from having both -res procs slotted in. Builds have had pylon testing so ingrained that we now equate -res procs = 25% damage boost, and damn, yeah, for 25% it's defs worth it. 5-8%? Not as much further considering it does not stack. And when tested in a farm map just to somewhat mimic gameplay not involving AVs the times with -res procs did not increase finishing the map faster. Damage procs averaged the same time, with the bonus there would not be non-stacking problems. But this part I can't rely on since Burn loves damage procs so it probably skewed that test. Though it's not super important in itself but building for the 'real world' may be showing that the -res procs are not nearly as important as pylon testing has trained us to think.

+4, but +3 with Alpha T4-ed, but that was not the ball court thing, sorry for being obtuse. The test rose from how the use of -res procs became prevalent in builds because of pylon testing. I recently doubted of the effect of -res procs on AVs because of their resistances to -resists and purple patch, which is where this sudden bout of testing came to be. To simplify this my testing showed that two 20% -res procs averaged out around 5-8% in extra damage (not killing time) after five minutes of bashing AVs. The reiterated question is: are those 5-8% just 5-8% in a team of 8? Is it multiplied becoming 5% x 8 = minimum of 40% extra damage the AV takes? My confusion raises from how in WoW (and in other games I'm sure) it's common to bring a class just because it can apply a boss debuff increasing the damage it takes by 5%, but no one says the boss is now taking 50% more damage from everyone combined! It's just taking 5% more. But I have heard it both ways. A 5% debuff means 5% while others say it's 5% X everyone. In this case it's from a -res effect which further muddles things.

Y'have the numbers in front of you, man 😛 Sheesh, such utter lazyness makes me proud. Like I said here: I'll throw the ball on@Bopper's court. Does a non stacking 5-8% difference in a team mean the boss dies 5-8% faster, or does that 5% become a 40% damage increase once multiplied by 8 people? I've heard it both ways.

All tests are 5 minutes long to smooth the 5% miss rate. Bigger numbers = better. Chimera. - Degenerative 75% chance for DoT and -res procs: 62% / 68% / 72%. 10% difference. Damn you RNG game! - Degenerative 75% chance for DoT and damage procs: 60% - Degenerative 75% chance for DoT, one -res in CAK, damage proc in Burn: 54% / 65%. 11% difference again. - Degenerative 75% chance for -HP and damage procs: 54% The rest of the testing can be found here.

Following @Sir Myshkin suggestion I tried Degenerative 75% chance for DoT and was pleasantly surprised at seeing it cut down the map times from 7:20 - 7:40 to 6:40-6:50. While this is a bit unreliable to test since mobs may flock or spread around and etc it may show a nice half term for an Interface choice that serves for 'real' play and AV. The effect is pretty minimal anyway as it takes 7 minutes of fighting to shave 30-40 seconds off. Following @Bill Z Bubba's suggestion as well I found the Praetorian Invasion and used it to test. All tests are 5 minutes long to smooth the 5% miss rate. Bigger numbers = better. Neuron: - Degenerative 75% chance for DoT and -res procs : 67% HP beaten out of the AV. - Degenerative 75% chance for DoT and damage procs: 61% HP beaten out of the AV. - Degenerative 75% chance for -HP and damage procs: 54% Nightstar. This one messes with testing with the constant knockbacks interrupting things. Still, it would be a nightmare to kill it with its resistances: - Degenerative 75% chance for -HP and damage procs used: 25%. - Degenerative 75% chance for DoT and -res procs used: 23%. - Degenerative 75% chance for DoT and damage procs used: 18%. Shadowhunter: ... waste of time, he healed up so a worthless AV to test things on. Chimera. The best I found to test. But not to be taken lightly as he can be quite dangerous by causing defense debuff cascades and messing with endurance. I ended up doing more tests on him. - Degenerative 75% chance for DoT and -res procs: 62% / 68% / 72%. 10% difference. Damn you RNG game! - Degenerative 75% chance for DoT and damage procs: 60% - Degenerative 75% chance for DoT, one -res in CAK, damage proc in Burn: 54% / 65%. 11% difference again. - Degenerative 75% chance for -HP and damage procs: 54% Black Swan: - Degenerative 75% chance for DoT and -res procs: killed in 4:53 minutes. - Degenerative 75% chance for DoT and damage procs: 95%. That's about all I had the patience to test. Poor Black Swan is the runt of the litter and funny enough it is not the living electricity or the android, or the avatar of darkness... but the normal guy with a sword that ends being the most dangerous. Chimera shaves defense like no one's business and then plows through 90% resistances. Pure resistance builds might get owned pretty badly by him. I'm curious as to how a Radiation Armor would do since they at least have a heal and a shield but it didn't look good. The damage procs are invariably last in the testing though the difference is not huge unlike with pylons and it took two -20% to have about 5% better times, but it can be argued it would multiply the damage of the whole team. Small as it turned out to be I personally prefer damage procs for regular play considering they do not stack with other players using them. But this is a personal decision and I'll just leave the data for others to decide for themselves. Degenerative 75% DoT ended up being on par with its -HP counterpart for AV beating but the effect outside AVs while minimal is still almost as much as Reactive 75% DoT who on the other hand has little to no effect on AVs. I did not test Reactive against AVS but since it is half the -res of a single -res proc and it took two of those to give about 5% better times I do not see the point. Edit: I ended up doing one last test with just one -res proc in CAK. I've added the numbers to the list.

This is a common tip, but slotting just the Theft of Essence proc in Dark Regeneration turns that end hog endurance neutral at best and a bar refiller if used on a full spawn. It does not work that way for single target, but a Recovery Serum from the P2W vendor (super cheap and stacks to 50) takes care of business on that end.

But you see, this is what I am talking about and why I requested tests. From my own testing normal mobs did not die faster from having -res slotted in. Maybe there is some math behind it. Maybe the amount of extra damage we obtain from -res is not enough to account for a 'last hit' and since we have to do a last hit it nullifies the shaving obtained by the -res. I don't do the maths, that's very much Bopper's side of things. Just like you do I merely test stuff, although you did it on a scale that shames my pale efforts. I still remember the -hours- you spent with each build in the proc monster thread. And this is what I saw so far: damage proc slightly ahead or same as -res on an AV where on a pylon it is an immediate 40 second boost. So that's what I'm talking about: testing. Testing clears all doubts and just provides proof. Well, definitely more testing is needed then which is why I did my request. During the week-end I may just set up a mission with a varied assortment of AVs and clear my doubts. One run on one AV is definitely a terrible expression of the scientific method 😄

He certainly kicked my butt in PvP 😄 I'm not used to meleers smacking me around but I expect he built for PvP. DM/Rad is super sturdy but calling it a beast might be overeaching. Playing a Scrapper to have Tanker level of damage we might as well play a Tanker. A Scrapper will still be squishy for debuffing enemies. But it will excel at taking down hard targets such as AVs thanks to three heals. Heals just tend to be overrated. It's better to not take the damage in the first place. Invulnerability, for example, lacks all the bells and whistles of Rad Armor and only has one heal in an obscenely long cooldown, but it can AFK in the ambush of ITF's first mission where Rad Armor would be torn to pieces. I personally go full on damage so barely played Rad Armor other than one character to 50 and never touched Invulnerability other than one test once. I have the Rad/MA linked in the first post. It has a ton more bells and whistles and debuff protection than Fire Armor, just not the damage output.

You can swap Crippling Axe Kick for Eagle Claw if you'd like, especially now that I'm abandoning -res procs. In its favor CAK does animate faster and I loathe being stuck in super long animations to then whiff. But Eagle Claw has a 33% damage buff lasting 3 seconds. This is long enough to do Crane Kick and Storm Kick (as long as the animation starts within the window of opportunity it does not matter if it finishes when the buff has expired), or Burn and Dragon Tail. Kind of like having your cake and eating it too with Build-Up and a sort of Follow-Up. I personally dislike long animations (nearly 2.8 seconds) but the main reason for taking CAK may be gone so I should test it and see how that buff plays. It's just not a huge buff. For example Burn goes from 363 to 403. Nice to have, but, 2.77 animation *cringe*.

Dragon Tail. Despite having low damage it animates fast and takes the Force Feedback proc which speeds everything. Neither EM nor Ice have that and having it in the AoE makes everything recharge faster which means more damage, more AoE. But I'll be honest with you that if you are having fun with Ice then carry on. You don't need to chase the most min maxed version. Then again this is CoH and we have 5k character slots so go nuts if you want to try it. Personally I'm rather enjoying it. With the changes to everything from dropping the heavy proc approach to dropping the -res procs everything feels nice and chunky even in the low levels. Or even more so in the low levels where there is little recharge due to not having access to all the bonuses. And as Parabola mentioned kicking people while wreathed in flames plays well with my aesthetics. I barely restrain myself from macroing 'HURRICANE KICK!' and 'HADOUKEN!.

It's surprising they don't seem to have a big effect on normal mobs compared to regular damage procs. It is as you say that the point in slotting them seems low unless more testing with different ATs and power sets changes results.

I speak from a very min maxed angle to take it with a grain of salt. Scrappers are great, but they are an AT to deal damage with. That means focusing on damage. Picking a non damage boosting secondary pulls the damage back to what I call Tanker levels of damage. Talking purely in terms of pylon times (as a metric, not as a goal) if a scrapper takes 3-4 minutes to destroy them they are dealing Tanker levels of damage and not having Tanker levels of sturdiness. At that point just play a Tanker instead. Can still 'scrap' but be much tankier. This is a very fantasy destroying approach though. Like, ignore theme and flavor approach. CoH has no need to be played in such a fashion, but it's not a bad thing to be aware of this when deciding on a new alt. Regarding the original question, it would be better to rely on passive protection all the time than on keeping tracks of buffs and debuffs, or even, heavens forbid, inspirations. There was a time that 33% defense builds were a bit more common in these forums. 45% is a lot, so aim for 33% instead and then eat small purple inspirations to reach 45%. Most of the time the time the game is easy enough that 33% is enough and when it isn't then just eat a small purple. They can either be combined or just quickly type /ah between missions and buy new ones (in fact, buying 20-40 at a time and just /ah and pick them up between missions). I tried this approach and it got old -fast-. I didn't want to keep an eye on my buffs or go oshitoshitoshit at seeing my HP dip all of a sudden, but instead of trying to force Shadowmeld to do tricks for you it's one you can try to achieve. I believe that 33% defense to Smash and Lethal is perfectly doable without Weave. Something like this. It's an old unfinished build I tweaked a bit.

I've been testing a few things and since the Tanker forums are a bit stagnant I'll post my findings here along with a request. I was testing the Interface incarnate choices and found them to have very little impact in the 'real' world. My tests on a Tanker over the Comic Con farm map, no inspirations, Hybrid assault used on cooldown, were: - Degenerative 75% chance for debuff: 7:20 - 7:30 - Reactive 25% chance for DoT: 7:20 - 7-30 - Reactive 75% chance for DoT: 6:20. - No Interface slotted: 7:20 - 7:30 The tests were repeated and the numbers held. Basically it seems like the DoT is what influences things and normal mobs don't care about the -HP debuff or the -res has too little of an effect on +3 (+4 downshifted). One minute less is still okay and I can see farmers flocking for it with their influence-per-minute goals, but for regular playing the impact is truly minimal since we are not at agro saturation for 5-7 minutes at a time. While this seems more interesting for playing I then tested against an AV since they notoriously resist -res effects. I randomly picked Mako and wailed on him for five minutes. This is a simple and dirty one run test which is not the best way of testing due to the 5% misses variance: - Reactive 75% chance of DoT: shaved 23% HP off. - Degenerative 75% chance for -HP: shaved 46% HP off. - No Interface slotted: shaved 22% HP off. The 'no interface' and Reactive 75% are so close they can account for whiffing but the difference VS Degenerative is pretty substantial. What I can extract from this is that the -res resistance of AVs squashes the Reactive Interface. In the tail of this testing I had a nagging feeling about -res procs. These are tremendous and can influence a build's output between 30 to 40 seconds to one minute on a pylon run. But. Pylons do not have -res resistance. AVs do. A quick and dirty run removing my Tanker's -res procs and substituting them for damage procs yielded 50% HP off from Mako after a five minute beating. The 4% difference between -res and damage procs is close enough to be from whiffing so exchanging procs is either a wash or a small gain. But what I seem to extract from this testing is that since the -res procs do not stack then multiple players with damage procs instead will do more damage instead of re-applying a non stacking -res effect. The slotting of -res procs have become a staple of builds since they are tested on pylons. The builds end being tailored for the testing being done even when an effort is made to be generalistic. Now, some caveats: - The testing was done on a Fire Armor Tanker. Burn takes notoriously well to damage procs so it skews the results for them. - All testing except the map runs was one run only which is not the proper way to test. All it takes is the 5% to happen to Burn instead of Storm Kick and end results will show variance. My request: - Whomever has the inclination try using their own builds and test a run of Comic Con with their Interface of choice and then with it unslotted. - Find an AV and hit it for five minutes (or if it dies before that *jealous*) with -res procs and then with those swapped out for damage procs.

That is exactly how it works in terms of applying the -res debuff. That's why they don't stack and the usefulness is dubious in big teams. All it takes is one person having the -res procs for the other seven to have theirs obsolete. Except in terms of keeping it up. While a damage proc will just do damage, period. I don't think the -res procs bypass resistance resists. It is the first time I have heard of this and the simple test versus an AV seems to indicate this is not the case because otherwise a mere regular damage proc would not have kept up with -40% res from both procs. On a pylon the -res proc swings the end result noticeably. I don't know how much of the -res remains once it goes through the +3 level shift and then the AV's resistance resistances, but a case can be made that even if only 5% (random number) goes through it's still 5% for the whole team wailing on it. But the testing on normal mobs does not seem to influence things much mostly because it is not a matter of removing the proc and leave the power with nothing, but of swapping the -res for a damage proc, and the damage proc seems to keep up handily.

Quick and dirty test replacing the -res in Burn and Crippling Axe Kick. - One run of the comic map with Degenerative netted about the same time between 7:20 and 7:30. - A single run against Mako for 5 minutes: 15k out of 30.6k So basically it seems to be a wash. But it was only one run. There was a small gain over an AV but CoH is a pretty terrible game to test things thanks to the 5% chance of missing that can happen on the important powers (missing with Burn is certainly a lot worse than missing on Storm Kick). Still, that was one extra 1.3k which says that at worst its a wash, at best a small gain. Furthermore Burn skews things since it -loves- procs. Two damage procs skews the damage more than a -res proc since what dies just dies and does not need to be debuffed. And this does not include how two damage procs in Burn gives more burst to kill things faster. Looking at the map run the times were about the same but in normal non agro saturation play it is better to down mobs with burst so that they don't have extra seconds to debuff (romans, I'm looking at you) or even hurt back (Vahz, we hate you). What it does seem to indicate is that on a pylon, and looking at past times, a -res bettered the times by as much as 40 seconds. In this case it worsened the times or did not improve them. We slot -res procs despite that they do not stack (two players using a Fury of the Gladiator -res does not mean two -20%) to help killing hard mobs, but hard mobs are AVs and GMs and they resist the effect we are seeking. In the end we have a whole school of thought revolving builds tailored to pylons and their quirks but we are not facing pylons when we go out and play.

Just monologuing here, but after testing in the lower levels the non proc version meshes well with Burn. Sadly pressing Burn is no longer that deeply satisfying affair of insta-killing 3-4 minions, but recharging faster makes it do the same. My next testing is the worth of -res procs. Considering the minimal effect that the -res Interface had in the 'real world' and how badly it then performed against an AV I'm now curious at how well, or how badly, the -res procs actually behave in real world testing. On the other hand they are more substantial than the 10-12% of Reactive at 20% x2. They have become a staple of the 1% builds because the testing for them revolves around pylon bashing who do not resist -res effects. If normal mobs don't show a good effect then AVs are bound to severely neuter them as well, which leads back to the simpler affair of slotting damage procs instead. It does seem counter to regular testing, but again, that testing is done on pylons who do not resist -res. That means for a pylon the -res will always be better, but for normal mobs a damage proc may well perform the same, and then give better results on an AV. Regardless actual testing is better than just pondering or gut feelings.

Another round of testing since something had been nagging me since the last test. I'm going to abandon the proc heavy approach *shock* at least for this build. Yeah, testing shows I'm getting about the same numbers with and without. Where the powers are heavy nukes with the proc approach I am still getting the same results simply by firing them more often. This runs a bit counter with the testing with Fire/Claws but I'm not one to argue with testing. Testing on pylons I had: - 3:05 - 2:58 - 3:20 This makes the damage no better, but also no worse. It does bring QoL to the build where powers are both more seamless at higher level . For example the 'normal rotation for 95% of the game ended up being Burn, Dragon Tail, Crippling Axe Kick, Crane Kick, Storm Kick. Repeat. All the things a body needs with the +FF proc in Crane kick, the -res in Crippling and the defense/+res in Storm kick having a place. For things with more HP it ended up being Burn, Crippling, Crane, Storm Kick. Less Storm Kicks helped closing the gap in damage from the loss of the procs. But the non proc slotting also helped at lower levels if exemplaring when I did a quick solo Posi 1 for testing. The extra 30% acc is of no particular use but the extra 20% is pretty good on a build that is already pretty recharge oriented and then Burn comes back much more often with it slotted for recharge. It's no longer that mini nuke that immediately downs 3-4 minions, but the result ends being the same. Testing with a farm map (not because farming is an important goal but it serves as a metric just like pylons do) shows the numbers remain the same pre/post procs as well. The interesting find that Interface seems to have very little effect in the open world remains with the new slotting. The change to non proc slotting altered little in the 7:20-ish Degenerative/no Interface slotted and 6.30-ish Reactive 75% DoT. If someone else wishes to test this with their own build please let me know the findings. The only 'rule' is not using inspirations (Hybrid Assault on cooldown) and then test the different Interfaces and let me/us know the results. Because, damn, it seems pretty weird that no Interface slotted gets the same results as Interface slotted. And only Reactive 75% DoT chance actually makes a measurable difference. Albeit a small one since it takes six minutes to shave one minute. I'm thinking it has to do with the small health pools. Take Degenerative, for example. Does it matter if it shaves 13% HP off if we still need to do one last hit anyway that would hit for 20%? Be the HP at 20% or a 7% (from the shaved HP) the last hit is still needed. The same applies with the10%-ish -res that Reactive has. Does it matter if our hits did 20-30 points more damage if it still needs one last hit to kill that would include the 20-30 points? Empirical testing seems to say yes, and empirical is the best. Bopper could do more with his penchant for maths but just basing myself in practical testing I see two ways to approach the Interface angle: 1 - Reactive still shows a difference. Since Degenerative is so common then stick with Reactive and it will help a little bit with clearing maps which is 97% of CoH's game. Since someone else is bound to have Degenerative as long as players are teamed up someone else will put the stacks on the AV. 2 - Reactive's difference is pretty minimal. It takes six minutes of agro saturation non stop pounding enemies to shave one minute off. Most of CoH's game is not played at agro saturation and there is plenty of downtime jumping between packs of enemies. This stretches the benefit. In practical terms something like 30 minutes of regular playing might see it being done 5 minutes earlier. 3 - Degenerative sees little effect in lower HP mobs to the point of not being noticeable. They die too fast, and the real benefit which is cutting down on the regeneration is of no consequence when enemies die fast. But it makes a large difference against an AV who completely negates Reactive's benefits. Maybe -you- are the one bringing Degenerative so someone else has Reactive. And if you are a person that solos then this is a given to help with the AVs. So it boils down to: - Reactive helps a little bit with maping, but has no effect on AVs (probably GMs too). - Degenerative has no effects in maps but helps with AVs/GMs. Make your decision based on this. I'll throw the changed build to the OP.