jack_nomind

I mentioned earlier that I'm opposed to pet classes in general, and I have a few specific objections to this one. So: Is this ultimately a melee/support class? It looks like the player has direct button control over the melee powers and the support powers. What's the point of the pet, then? Or to put it differently, are we subtracting the pet's average DPS from the mentor's, making the mentor feel like a weaker, melee-required Defender? Or is the pet additive to the mentor, making it more like a perma-Lore'd Tanker? Pet classes are perpetually hampered by pet positional AI. Most Masterminds already skip their own attacks -- which are all ranged to some extent, and so less position-dependent -- and still have a full plate with handling pet positions and support powers. Reducing the pets to "just the elite one" reduces that opportunity cost, but not in a smooth "one sixth of the pets means one sixth of the time" kind of way. The most successful MM sets have mostly-ranged pet damage because melee is inherently dangerous. Beastmaster and Ninja MMs have huge challenges, very much associated with their melee pet focus. Isn't this pet going to spend most of its time face-down? Is it supposed to be 'expendable' like MM pets are? Or is it going to tank Recluse for a team? The middle ground might be narrower than you think... it's not as easy as saying "somewhere in the middle" and being done with it. For static mitigation sets the difference between +0/x1 and +4/x8 is a mere few percentage points, and involving active mitigation with a pet means eating more and more opportunity time from the primary. Finally, and I can't believe I have to say this. How on earth did you propose a Duo class and never once manage to include THE most-asked for Duo feature from CoH. See image below -- and get on it!

I'm one of the people who think Quants are too cool and lore-rich to do away with entirely. I'd like to see Cysts make a comeback, too. But you're right that it's rather misplaced as a tool of game balance. So I think a better kheld-specific effect for quant attacks would be something like a regen and/or recovery and/or defense and/or damage debuff that "saps away" kheldian strength... ...and I think that strength should be enough to warrant having something that takes it away. I'd change basically all Kheldian defensive toggles into auto powers, remove the end cost on the few that remain (eg kheldian 'hover'), tune up damage and effect strengths very slightly across the board, turn most of their KB into KU or KD (with one or two strong KB powers for fun, herding, and range mitigation), and give them bonus slots somehow. I'd also probably change their inherent a little bit with an eye towards making status protection easier to obtain... and on top of all of that, I'd make some Kheldian EPP choices. Kheldians are meant to be the Superman/Green Lantern of CoH. Right now they're more like Krypto the Wonder-Dog. which for the record would also be a great EAT. If all of these changes were made, the Quants really *would* be a balancing factor, and so I'd be opposed to the OP suggestion. If Khelds are going to languish as-is forever, instead... yeah, the toggle sounds fine.

this was a poor choice of topic title for this question, but it sounds like you'd enjoy Dominator or a VEAT. With several exceptions, Defender and Corr action economy is often used on a debuff cycle at the beginning of combat that means you still sort of "stand back and do X," and then combat's over. VEATs, particularly Night Widows and certain Crabs, have a more involved cycle that requires mixed ranges and awareness of team position. Dominators need to use melee, range, and controls to get the most out of their class, and so have a multi-stage engagement process that can be very satisfying when it comes together.

You're getting a bit beat up in comments and I think you've actually been fairly respectful this entire thread, even though you and I disagree about exactly what the ideal profile for Tankers is. Your initial suggestion for changing the aggro cap for tankers is absolutely the first step, though. If you wanted to correct anything, it's just that "mob" refers to a singular enemy NPC, not a group of them. Now if we can persuade you that Tanker utility absolutely does require further steps and get you to link to some of the ideas in this thread from an edit in your top post... 8)

here's my "prototype" Titan Weapons / Radiation Armor brute. It's built with an Alpha Slot (in this case Spiritual) in mind, since that strongly affects what set bonuses to look for. You'd have to find something to take out for Hover or FA if those are important to you. The highest damage single-target attack chain is Rend Armor -> Follow Through -> Arc of Destruction -> Crushing Blow -> Follow Through. It takes a ton of recharge and obviously, Crushing Blow as well. You could swap in Whirling Smash or Titan Sweep without much DPS loss if you absolutely have to free up that power slot, but it'll hit your endurance noticeably and you'll have to find a way to reslot for the lost bonuses.

Oh, good point. I'll go get the tanker investigative team right on it.

The short answer is, we can't. Until some industrious person looks into the code, we're still not sure exactly how it works. My best understanding is the formula on that page. Threat is kept by damage or psuedo-damage (e.g., mezzing), multiplied by your Taunt magnitude (generally 4). The Taunt power does psuedo-damage, as does Gauntlet (what you call punchvoke). But it isn't very much -- almost never enough on its own to pull enemy mobs from another melee player. You have to use AoEs (damage or mez) to continue to generate threat on groups of mobs... and the damage you do has to be at least a quarter of what other melee players are doing, and about (1/8th? I think?) what ranged players are doing.

It's not that WP does healing better than Regen; Regen vastly outheals WP. It's that this "little bit of everything" is both easy to level and plays really nicely with set bonuses, and that WP doesn't have any real need of (or use for) +rech to get that "little bit of everything." If all of WP's +def and +res powers were on cooldowns like so much of Regen's... regen... is, it would be fighting itself for slotting space. Instead, each WP power can be slotted almost entirely for {whatever it's supposed to do} and then a little bit for endredux. It still takes some careful work to get to softcap, but it's possible to do without seriously cutting away the utility of other powers in a way that just isn't true for Regen. (I've seen people deliberately use perma shadowmeld to softcap Regen, even though it eats 20% of their DPS with its 3s recast every 15s.) Heh, now I want to go make a WP toon.

This isn't a democracy. This "debate" isn't about coming up with a singular idea so that we can then go implement it. It's a show of interest in some change, and an examination of as many possibilities or permutations as we can manage specifically so the very small number of people who control the server's code can decide what they want. Having five, or ten, or thirty pages of (polite and reasonable) discussion is actually ideal, since it helps to show the general interest. But I will say... unlike you, I'm here because I enjoy it; even if nothing happens from the discussion, I like talking about this stuff. If you'd rather make your point and move back to playing... that's absolutely a sane and reasonable thing to do. 110%. Did you happen to see my earlier suggestions?

Oh, wow, I just remembered the Drudge Watchmen. Is it too late to change my list?

eldriyth, you don't deserve to have everyone pile on you, but you are the only one who didn't see it. ::)

Your math isn't quite on point (though I did your addendum) because you're leaving out a dimension -- the absorb refresh over time we're suggesting. If those two hypothetical powers started at full absorb capacity and refreshed 10% a second, and the attacks occurred at 1/s, neither example would end up with any HP damage in that time. Leaving out regeneration (or absorb refresh) rates when talking about Regeneration the set is really easy since we so rarely bring it in to mitigation discussions, but it really undercuts the issues at hand.

I almost always wish there were more Nature/ defenders and pretty much any type of non-farming Controller. I mean I'll take the farming ones, too.

Just friendly competition. I wouldn't have had anything at all if not for your example. I typically build for def breakpoints (20%+, 32.5%+, 45%+) for much the reason you indicate; I like being x purple insps from cap with an emphasis on sustain. In your example, having 35% s/l defense but 67% cold resist is slightly better than having 45% s/l defense and no resist. Exactly how much regen -- or in FA's case, their click heal's cooldown timer -- plays into survival depends a bit on exactly how much incoming damage there is. But if it's really that important to you...

The AT is a pet class, eldriyth. There's no other person involved. Also, OP, the formatting is beautiful. I'm a hard sell on pet classes, but seriously, that's a gorgeous post.

So the great thing about Absorb is that if it ticks fast enough, it works as a sort of less-broken Damage Protection. (Real Damage Protection is a bad idea.) It's less broken because Absorb actually has two stats -- current and max. Basically, if you give someone 10 points of max absorb and 10 points of absorb every second, after twenty seconds they have... 10 points of absorb. The max absorb you gave them doesn't permit any more than that. Because of this behavior, Regen *could* benefit from a very fast-ticking +absorb power without being OP. As far as exactly how much Absorb powers give, afaik it's based on the base HP of the caster's AT. Since in this case the caster and recipient are the same AT, it means any given % would be the same regardless of build specifics. ...I think. I do actually need to research Absorb again at some point.

Aaand since the width and height img tags don't appear to work on this board, it's in glorious GIGANT-O-VISION. 10. Fir Bolg Their powers will bore you to tears, but c'mon. Who doesn't want a pack of these guys running after you? 9. Dominatrix Followers No, no, I meant to pick a different one, my finger slipped all the way to Radial Superior. OH WELL. (uhhh... no image.) 8. Skulls Iconic baddies who've gotten enough visual and practical upgrades to actually maybe even be interesting to use. 7. Freakshow Speaking of iconic baddies, these guys are literally in the very first trailer! C'mon already! 6. Legacy Chain Pets that summon pets! Also, a great lore group and a good 'rp' fit for many characters. 5. Crey "These are the pets that never die; yes, they go on and on, my friends..." 4. Malta Narrowly losing the award for "most OP lt class" to Nemesis, we have the black market cyborg army of Malta. BONUS: When they're about to die, the robots upgrade and transform! 3. Devouring Earth "Wait, what kind of buff does this one plant?" 2. Resistance Here to punish you for being a pretend fascist, we have thirty seconds of knockdown! Plus, nearly all of their attacks have -Res. Isn't it ironic? 1. Dr. Aeon We've got Punk Aeon, we've got Disco Aeon, we've got Mean Skateboarder Aeon... and so much more! 110%, the intangible Support version of Aeon should only have the Clone power and summon a new one every 30s or so. You can never have too much Aeon.

Pfft! I still softcapped melee and beat you everywhere else defensively except s/l typed defense. Don't be sour just because I stole your build for the headstart. ;D Edit: And -- let me make a special note of this -- didn't have to four-slot Boxing to do it.

For -regen, you're really going to be leaning on Lore pets and trying to burst him down in that window. The Interface -regen probably isn't going to make a dent; you're going to get a net of -10% regen and no DoT with Diamagnetic. I'd strongly recommend Degenerative and Reactive. He resists Toxic more than Fire (Fire, Cold, and Psi are his lowest resists), but the -maxhp is still useful; you get slightly more effective -regen (since he'll lose just over 10% of his maxhp), lower his actual hit points, and still get some use out of the DoT.

Generally on Regen, Dull Pain doesn't have downtime (indeed, most /Regen goes for permahasten, which actually stacks the power). The new version of the power looks like something intended to be skipped. ...In general, I love the formatting, but I don't think these changes make Regen noticeably more attractive for PvE. If anything, putting yet another click power into rotation (by splitting Dull Pain into two different clicks, Abate and Revitalize) and making Abate require more frequent re-casting complicates it even further.

non-Granite Spines/SA this was a blast to build although i'm disappointed i didn't quite hit softcap on f/c/e/n. it was the cost of aiming for high recharge and high damage. it does manage some pretty strong regen/healing, at least. I built it around Agility Alpha because Alpha is so relatively easy to max and important to balance set bonuses around. I didn't set up any other Incarnate abilities, but you'll probably want to consider either Support Radial Hybrid or Ageless Destiny (either, Core is incredibly easy but actually exceeds your needs, while Radial fills in some debuff resistance at the cost of an uneven haste). Doing both would be overkill on a DPS. Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.962 http://www.cohplanner.com/ Click this DataLink to open the build! Level 50 Magic Brute Primary Power Set: Spines Secondary Power Set: Stone Armor Power Pool: Leadership Power Pool: Fighting Power Pool: Speed Power Pool: Teleportation Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery Villain Profile: Level 1: Barb Swipe -- SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBrtFur-Dmg/Rchg(42), SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), SprBrtFur-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43), SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43), SprBrtFur-Rech/Fury(43) Level 1: Rock Armor -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(3), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(3), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(15) Level 2: Spine Burst -- Erd-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Erd-Dmg/Rchg(5), Erd-Dmg(5), Obl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42) Level 4: Stone Skin -- Ags-Psi/Status(A), Ags-ResDam(9), Ags-ResDam/Rchg(9), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(21), GldArm-3defTpProc(39) Level 6: Earth's Embrace -- Ags-EndRdx/Rchg(A), Ags-ResDam/Rchg(7), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(7), DctWnd-Heal/Rchg(15), DctWnd-Heal(50) Level 8: Impale -- Empty(A) Level 10: Mud Pots -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(11), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(11), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(45) Level 12: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(13), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(13) Level 14: Boxing -- Empty(A) Level 16: Rooted -- Prv-Absorb%(A), Prv-Heal(17), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(17), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(48), Prv-Heal/Rchg(48), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(50) Level 18: Quills -- OvrFrc-Dam/KB(A), OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg/End(19), OvrFrc-Dmg/End/Rech(19), OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg/End/Rech(46) Level 20: Brimstone Armor -- UnbGrd-Max HP%(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(21), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(39), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(40), Ags-ResDam(40) Level 22: Tough -- Ags-ResDam(A), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(23), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(23), Ags-ResDam/Rchg(40), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(36) Level 24: Weave -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(25), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(25) Level 26: Ripper -- SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg(A), SprUnrFur-Dmg/Rchg(27), SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(27), SprUnrFur-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), SprUnrFur-Rchg/+Regen/+End(34) Level 28: Crystal Armor -- Rct-ResDam%(A), Rct-Def(29), Rct-Def/EndRdx(29), Rct-EndRdx/Rchg(37), Rct-Def/Rchg(37), Rct-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(37) Level 30: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(31) Level 32: Throw Spines -- SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg(A), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx(33), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(33), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(34), SprFrzBls-Rchg/ImmobProc(34) Level 35: Minerals -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(36), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(36) Level 38: Superior Conditioning -- EffAdp-EndMod(A), EffAdp-EndMod/Rchg(39) Level 41: Physical Perfection -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(46) Level 44: Granite Armor -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A) Level 47: Build Up -- RechRdx-I(A) Level 49: Teleport -- WntGif-ResSlow(A) Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A) Level 1: Fury Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A) Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A) Level 4: Ninja Run Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A) Level 2: Health -- NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(A), NmnCnv-Heal(48), Pnc-Heal/+End(50) Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A) Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(46) Level 0: Born In Battle Level 0: High Pain Threshold Level 0: Invader Level 0: Marshal Level 50: Agility Radial Paragon ------------ | Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1530;700;1400;HEX;| |78DA6D94CB4F135114C6EFB453B02FFAA0056A4504A4056A4B0BB8362AE0421A31F| |88A9BA6816B99A4B6CDB426B274AF1B376E7C808FAD2B9F7F810808FE05A83B91A7| |1A17C6C47A3AE7B334D69BB6BF3BDF3DE7DE73BE9969F2FA88E3E9A91BC784623F9| |94D178BA913FAB592B424D3196DCA2C6834D2D76B88A9A4CC4A199B2C6839590CB0| |3422AFC85C91C4523E2753C7F5AB795DB826F2F96C6C5CA6A7A55E9CD10A4EE37A4| |CCBCC94B45CC6665C4D16A49CF61AD373B46B21AF97D2252D9F0B8C16B4A9D8684E| 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The toggle sustain powers are definitely advantageous for Blasters, and there doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason about who got what. Sustain powers that were on Live or Test don't seem to have been adjusted to match utility with the i25-improved sets, either.

The Sentinel secondaries are probably mostly overtuned for similar reasons as Bio Armor or WP are on melee, to a higher degree. I'm not calling for a nerf or anything, because by no means are Sentinels breaking the game as an AT, but I'd be very leery about porting anything over from them. (As much as I like Sentinel /Regen.) For MB in particular I feel like it takes an already very easy-to-build kit and takes away the one interesting wrinkle it had. I'm happy that it gives SR a responsive combat tool, which makes it a bit more interesting to actually play, but it actually IMO worsens the "low build ceiling" issue I'm on about here.

Autocast powers don't auto-target. You could do it with PBAoEs but... you can already do it the same thing with damage auras and a PBAoE. I tried it on live. The efficiency is, let's say, "negligible." You'd need to run a full team to get any kind of real return and... well, again, the thing that's stopping people from doing that isn't the lack of autocast powers. I think the potential for abuse here is a lot less than multi-trigger macros. This is a definite "yes" for me, if only because my wrists aren't getting any younger. I can only play my /cold Corr for an hour or two at a time as it is.

Permanent SD requires +300% recharge (more if you cared about it affecting its own next cast, but I'm assuming we don't). OP's build has 282% recharge on SD. If only there were some way to get a +20% recharge buff...