modest

I've been doing some bug testing over the past few days using Pylons, and that gave me an excuse to test some "proc-light" builds. These are builds that try to use as few procs as possible while maintaining a reasonable damage output. Storm Summoning/Dark Blast Defender: 150 seconds (383 DPS), Alpha: Musculature Radial T4, Hybrid: Assault Radial T4 (slotted, not clicked). Radiation Armor/War Mace Tanker: 195 seconds (324 DPS), Alpha: Musculature Core T4, Hybrid: Assault Radial T4 (slotted, not clicked). Psychic Blast/Cold Domination Corruptor: 166 seconds (358 DPS), Alpha: Musculature Core T4, Hybrid: Assault Core T4 (slotted, not clicked). My older proc monster builds are capable of dealing higher damage, but these are pretty good times for builds that do not use procs to provide a significant source of their damage. Obviously, clicking Hybrid: Assault improves these. I may craft a Hybrid Assault: Core T4 for the Tanker. Hybrid: Assault Core T4 produces better Pylon times on the test server (and therefore as a solo player), but Hybrid: Assault Radial is more helpful when I play in groups where I often find my character at the damage cap.

Here is a screenshot that was taken on a Cold Domination character that entered the map at recommended graphic settings, and then lowering the graphics to minimum graphic settings: Here is a screenshot of a Storm Summoning character that entered the map at recommended graphic settings, and then lowering the graphics to minimum graphic settings:

After additional testing with @Bopper, I believe that I've discovered the cause of this bug. This behavior is replicable indefinitely with the same result. If a character enters a map while on minimum graphic settings, then Sleet and Freezing Rain do not apply their debuffs properly. Sleet and Freezing Rain produce the behavior that I observed in the initial bug report: intermittently they drop all debuffs after 14 seconds. If a character enters a map while on recommended or higher graphic settings, then Sleet and Freezing Rain stack perfectly: If a character enters a map on recommended or higher graphic settings, and then lowers the graphic settings to minimum graphic settings, then Sleet and Freezing Rain continue to operate correctly.

Attached is a combat log from the Cold Domination Corruptor. The behavior that I described above is erratic. I tested it further and discovered that sometimes Sleet will function properly and stack three times. Other times the debuffs associated with the patch will disappear completely after 14 seconds. I do not know what causes this, but it does mean that both Sleet and Freezing Rain are intermittently operating correctly. It is very easy to replicate this by casting the powers and observing the target with a Power Analyzer. Here is a screenshot showing what happens when Sleet lasts 45 seconds rather than 14: I do not know what causes it to disappear after 14 seconds some of the time, and 45 seconds other times. I have measured this effect on multiple characters on multiple days. chatlog 2020-07-27.txt

This is a continuation of the bug report. After 14 seconds, the debuffs disappeared: I tested it a second time with the same results: Notice that the Sleet (and Freezing Rain) patch(es) remain on the ground, but the debuffs disappear after 14 seconds.

Last night, I was Pylon testing a Storm Summoning Defender while monitoring the Pylon with a Power Analyzer. I noticed that the behavior of Freezing Rain has changed. Tonight, I tested Sleet on a Cold Domination character and found that it has also been affected by the change. Previously, Freezing Rain and Sleet were coded to summon a pet that lasts 15 seconds. The pet applied debuffs that last 30 seconds. Previously, it was possible to stack these pets so that Sleet or Freezing Rain could be applied multiple times against the same target. Here is a screenshot of how Freezing Rain and Sleet previously behaved: Now, the effects of Freezing Rain and Sleet end after 14 seconds. If Freezing Rain or Sleet is cast upon a target, the pet disappears after 14 seconds and the 30 second debuff is not applied to the target. In short, the debuffs associated with Freezing Rain and Sleet end after 14 seconds. Here is an example of this behavior on a Storm Summoning Defender. Freezing Rain recharges in 14 seconds on this Defender, so it should always have two stacks permanently up on a target. However, it is unable to maintain a single stack because the buffs disappear after 14 seconds. Here is an example with Sleet on a Cold Domination Corruptor. On this Corruptor, Sleet recharges in 15 seconds. I monitored a Pylon with a Power Analyzer, cast Sleet, and then clicked Sleet again so that it would cast on its 15 second cooldown.

Wild Fire can't be considered a "Page 6 guess" given that it has already been confirmed by the developers.

Bill, on both a Brute and a Tanker, Stone Armor caps Smashing and Lethal resistances with three skills: Granite, Stone Skin, and Tough. I verified this by creating a fresh Battle Axe/Stone Armor build in Mid's. The build exceeded the cap for S/L resistances prior to slotting any attacks. A Brute with this combination will be able to slot the same damage procs as a Tanker with this combination. It's my opinion that your perception of the archetypes, and the specific power sets that have been mentioned in this thread, are being heavily influenced by your personal build philosophy. Your build preferences will heavily alter the performance of each archetype and power set.

Due to the rampant negativity on the forums, I stopped sharing my builds here. I am happy to share builds and offer suggestions on Discord. 🙂 It has been my experience that Scrappers with Bio Armor pylon test between 65-80 seconds (Titan Weapons), and 85-135 seconds (Dual Blades, War Mace, Rad Melee, Claws, Katana, Fiery Melee, Battle Axe, Broad Sword). Scrappers without Bio Armor pylon test between 135 seconds and 180 seconds. Tankers with Claws (@Dismiss), Kinetic(@Sir Myshkin), or War Mace (@modest) top out at ~195 seconds without Hybrid: Assault clicked. Super Strength can push 115 seconds with procs (@Bopper, @Sir Myshkin). I have not personally Pylon tested Claws on a Brute, but I have a lot of experience with /Super Reflexes. This experience combined with the screenshots that Bill shared directed me to conclude that one component of @Bill Z Bubba's complaints, that Brutes do not have enough durability, is at least in part due to his build. The only player that I know who is actively Pylon testing Brutes at the moment is @Werner. His Katana Brute averages 163 seconds. It seems reasonable to me that a Scrapper with the same melee set would average 135 seconds, a Brute 163 seconds, and a Tanker 195 seconds.

Why do you find it to be irrelevant? Your complaint is that the ratio of survivability to damage is skewed in favor of Tankers when compared to Brutes (and Scrappers). I am telling you that I, and others, have tested this extensively and found it not to be true. Your Brute feels less durable because of your build choices. A group of HC players, including myself, have tested Tankers (and Scrappers, Brutes, etc.) fairly thoroughly on the test server. We share our results through Discord. 🙂 I'd be happy to share builds and help you work on your build if you are on the HC Discord.

@Bill Z Bubba There are a few things working against your Brute. The first is that the power sets that you picked are optimal on Scrappers and Tankers. Certain power sets favor some archetypes over others due to damage bonuses, differences in the powers, slotting options, ATOs, etc. Claws and Super Reflexes are both power sets that favor Scrappers and Tankers over Brutes and Stalkers. The second issue is your slotting. Based on the screenshots that you provided, you are not slotting your characters optimally. It is your personal choice to slot your characters however you please, but your slotting has significantly lowered the survivability of your Brute and Scrapper. In comparison, here are the totals of the Katana/Super Reflexes Scrapper that @Bopper and I designed for Pylon testing: This Scrapper was able to achieve the fastest Pylon time for any Katana/ Scrapper that wasn't paired with Bio Armor. With Weave and Maneuvers, it reaches the incarnate cap. Without Weave and Maneuvers toggled on, here is what the totals look like: These screenshots were taken without incarnates factored in. You can raise survivability even further by taking Destiny: Rebirth and/or Hybrid: Melee Core. Note that with proper slotting, this character is more durable than your Scrapper or your Brute. I am willing to bet that it also does more damage. In short, your slotting will dramatically affect your perception of how these archetypes and power sets play.

Obviously, the only sane and reasonable solution to this very real and extremely serious problem would be for the Homecoming developers to immediately delete the Brute archetype. But that's not going far enough. I posit that all players who previously had a Brute character over the level of 40 should be required to level a new Defender character up to 50. Only then will balance be brought to the game and this genuine injustice be resolved.

I use a rotation of Clobber, Jawbreaker, Shatter, Gloom on my Rad/WM Tanker. I found that this led to the best Pylon times (~3:15 without Hybrid: Assault). Clobber should have the Hecatomb: Chance for Negative proc, and at least one other damage proc (Gladiator's Strike, Touch of Death, Mako, Perfect Zinger). Shatter should have Armageddon: Chance for Fire and Fury of the Gladiator: Chance for -Res. You can choose to proc out Shatter with Obliteration, Scirocco, Eradication, and/or Zinger. Jawbreaker should have at least one damage proc (Gladiator's Strike, Mako, Touch of Death, Perfect Zinger). Gloom should have the Apocalypse: Chance for Negative proc and at least one other damage proc (Cloud Senses, Gladiator's Javelin). Avoid Decimation: Chance of Build Up. I found that slotting this actually lowered DPS. Radiation Therapy takes good procs: Obliteration, Scirocco's, Eradication, Fury -Res, Perfect Zinger, Touch of the Nictus. You could also 5 slot it with Panacea for the global recharge and set bonuses, and use the final slot for a damage proc. I wasn't able to make Ground Zero worth using, but it might be useful with melee sets that don't have high damage AOE attacks. I found Shatter and Crowd Control to be better options for AOE.

Black Lives Matter. ☮️

@r0y As Bopper mentioned, I Pylon tested a build earlier today based on @Sir Myshkin's Kinetic Melee "proc monster" build. I found that a Kinetic Melee attack chain of T3 - T2 - T1 - Gloom - Repeat maintained a damage bonus over 100% at all times. Specifically, the build reached a permanent 100% damage bonus from Power Siphon, a 25% damage bonus for a few seconds of overlap when 5 stacks were reached, an additional 10.5% from Leadership: Assault, and a bit more from set bonuses. I was testing a proc build, so I'm not sure how this attack chain would translate to a build that was focused on set bonuses and survival. I also had 148.8% global recharge, stacking global recharge from Beta Decay, and the global recharge provided by Ageless. I'm not sure that it would be possible to maintain Power Siphon permanently without those advantages.

I had a feeling that Hjarki was incorrect in both their numbers and conclusion, so I took my Rad/Sonic Defender to Dark Astoria for some testing. By following the Screech -> Scream -> Shriek -> Scream attack chain, I reached -88.8 Resistance from Sonic Attack skills alone. With Enervating Field it reached -122.10%. I unslotted Annihilation and Fury of the Gladiator before performing this test, and I did not use Dreadful Wail or Howl to stack additional -Res.

I posted every single Sentinel time that was listed in the Pylon thread, regardless of the date when it was posted. You may use whatever sources you like to provide more data. I don't read the Sentinel forums regularly, and I am not familiar with Pylon times that are posted there. I have not ignored anything that you've written. If I haven't addressed a specific statement that you wrote, it is likely because I agreed with that sentence and saw no reason to debate it. What you are asking for is unreasonable. You are asking me to create builds for each of these power sets and Pylon test them myself which is simply not something that I'm willing to do. I am happy to accept the numbers that other players have posted in the Pylon thread, or the Defender forums, or the Sentinel forums, or any other source that you feel is reasonable to cite. I offered to send you my Cold/Fire and Poison/Fire Blast builds because those are builds that I have already Pylon tested. I am not willing to invest the time into personally testing every build posted. I trust that other players are posting times in good faith. I have not "dissed the /psi epic for Sentinels". I have pointed out that it is used in all of the top Sentinel Pylon times. Frankly, as @Zeraphia wrote, "it's concerning IMO, that Sentinels and Defenders are even mentioned in the same sentence for damage comparisons, and they're valid... That is not good." This entire debate regarding the comparison of Sentinel damage to Defender damage is indicative that Sentinels are not competitive with Scrappers. It serves no purpose to fixate upon this debate, and it has become a distraction from the purpose of this thread. If you put a sentence in quotation marks, it indicates that another person has written or said what you are quoting. No one in this thread has written this sentence. This is the point where I step back and disengage. I have no obligation to continue a conversation with a person who is unwilling to communicate respectfully. I am also not responsible for meeting your personal standards for discussion. I mentioned your passion for the archetype because I was attempting to empathize with your point of view. I also complimented your contributions by writing that "the reason that I used your Pylon times is because they provide a good, helpful reference." I was extending an olive branch, and you have interpreted that olive branch as a nefarious plot to undermine your argument.

I have shown you nothing but respect. If you are unable to have a polite conversation, then we can simply agree to disagree and I will cease to reply to your posts. I understand that you are emotionally invested in this topic because the Sentinel archetype is one that you enjoy playing, and I am trying to respect that while also suggesting that improvements can be made to the damage output of the archetype. I have not said "Sentinels suck". The Pylon thread in the Scrapper forum includes submissions from all classes. More data would provide a broader perspective. Perhaps you could encourage people from the Sentinel forums to post their Pylon times in the Pylon thread. I think that players in that thread would enjoy seeing more submissions from an underrepresented archetype. I have not insinuated that "any posted proof of high damage sentinels is invalid because an edge case". I have stated that the majority of Sentinel Pylon times that we have are sub-250DPS. This compares unfavorably to Scrappers, Blasters, and Stalkers, the three primary damage dealing archetypes. The fact that it also compares poorly to Defender Pylon times illustrates a further divide between the archetypes. I would be happy to send you my Poison/Fire or Cold/Fire Mid's file for you to Pylon test. Because you already have a Poison/Fire, your build might outperform mine. It is likely to do so since you outperform me in Pylon testing. In response to your personal attack, I've shared all of my Pylon builds on the forums and on the HC Discord. The DPS numbers that I post, which are much lower than the numbers that you have achieved, are based on Pylon kill times. I build a character on the test server and kill Pylons repeatedly until I have a good idea about what a build can achieve. There are a group of players on the HC Discord that do this regularly. We share times and compare builds. The numbers that we share are very consistent with very few outliers. Please quote where I said that Sentinels must have no procs, and that Defenders can be fully procced out and use all the powers that they want. I have pointed out that Sentinels must use the Psychic epic tree to achieve top DPS times. Would you disagree? I am not as familiar with Time Manipulation as other posters in the Defender Proc thread. I refer you to that thread for examples of Time Manipulation builds. I also cannot confirm that they are able to deal 300+dps. I would estimate that most min-maxed Defenders are in the ~230-250DPS range, which is above most min-maxed Sentinels based on Pylon times. Builds that slot for high global recharge do not require Ageless, but I agree with you that it does improve most builds. I take Clarion on most of my builds for the reason that you stated. Again, I understand that you are very passionate about the Sentinel archetype, and therefore you feel a need to defend any perceived slight against the archetype. Please try to understand that I am not criticizing the archetype in an attempt to insult it. My criticisms are motivated by a desire to see the archetype improved. I am also not attempting to insult you. You appear to believe that you are being personally attacked by suggestions to improve the archetype. You are not. In fact, the reason that I used your Pylon times is because they provide a good, helpful reference. If I did not think that they were helpful, I would not have posted them.

The reason that it is important to consider the number of people who have reported high damage Sentinels is that this helps us consider whether those high damage builds are an accurate representation of the archetype's damage output. If a very small number of players are able to produce results that are wildly outside of the norm, then those players are not an accurate measurement of the performance of the archetype. I will point out that the Pylon time that you posted for your Fire/Radiation Sentinel in June of 2019 was 215DPS (436 seconds). This was when you were using the Sentinel's blast set as your primary attacks. I would argue that this number is more indicative of the innate damage output of the archetype. Defenders are able to reach the numbers that you quoted using Dark Blast, Rad Blast, Fire Blast, and Ice Blast when paired with Cold Domination, Storm Summoning, Poison, and Time Manipulation. It is possible that they can reach these numbers with other sets as well. Defenders have a defense buff modifier of 0.100. This is the same modifier that Tankers have. As a result, it is quite possible to cap the majority of typed or positional defenses and have a good amount of resistance (typically S/L capped) simply by running tough, weave, maneuvers, and an epic shield.

You're incorrect. Based on Pylon tests, Defenders that are focused on dealing damage (often referred to as offenders) out-damage all but two players' Sentinels. There's a thread in the Defender forum entitled "Proc Monsters - The New Offender" that has good information about this if you are interested in learning more. Additionally, Defenders get the same Defense Buff modifier as Tankers. This means that a Defender can more easily cap their defenses and resistances as compared to other ranged classes. The only objective measure that we currently have are Pylon times. I compiled a list of these times in a recent post. As you can see, on average Sentinels have worse Pylon times than Defenders or Corruptors. Only two players have shared times that compete with Blaster Pylon times. By comparing averages, we can see that the average Blaster does close to double the damage of the average Sentinel. If you would like to contribute to this data set, then I invite you to post your Pylon times in the Pylon thread. More comparisons are always helpful for other players. Based on Pylon, Dominators also significantly out-damage Sentinels on average. In fact, the player with the majority of the top Sentinel Pylon times also posted a Dominator Pylon time that is significantly better than his Sentinel's times.

The only objective data that we currently have is the thread with player-submitted Pylon clear times. Let's take a look at those. Here is the every Pylon clear time in the Pylon thread posted by a player using a Sentinel. I have only listed the best clear time listed in each post: Zephira, Fire Blast/Bio Armor, 111 seconds, 473DPS Assault Radial clicked. nihilii, Fire Blast/Radiation Armor, 133 seconds, 416DPS. T4 Hybrid Assault Radial clicked. nihilii, Fire Blast/Radiation Armor, 135 seconds, 411DPS. T4 Hybrid Assault Radial clicked. nihilii, Electrical Blast/Invulnerability, 137 seconds, 407DPS. T4 Hybrid Assault Radial clicked. nihilii, Fire Blast/Radiation Armor, 158 seconds, 371DPS. T4 Hybrid Assault Radial clicked. nihilii, Fire Blast/Radiation Armor, 159 seconds, 369DPS. T4 Hybrid Assault Radial clicked. nihilii, Fire Blast/Radiation Armor, 172 seconds, 351DPS. T4 Hybrid Assault Radial slotted, not clicked. Microcosm, Dual Pistols/Energy Aura, 329DPS. Hybrid Assault clicked. Microcosm, Dual Pistols/Energy Aura, 309DPS. Sovera, Radiation Blast/Ninjitsu, 229 seconds, 295DPS. T4 Hybrid Assault Core clicked. Sovera, Radiation Blast/Ninjitsu, 240 seconds, 287DPS. T4 Hybrid Assault Core slotted not clicked. microcosm, Dual Pistols/Energy Aura, 282DPS. Hybrid Assault Core slotted, not clicked. nihilii, Dark Blast/Invulnerability, 264 seconds, 273DPS. Hybrid Assault T3 clicked. Astredax, Fire Bast/Bio Armor, 275 seconds, 267DPS. T4 Hybrid Assault Radial clicked. nihilii, Fire Blast/Radiation Armor, 320 seconds, 247DPS. T4 Hybrid Assault Radial clicked. Extor Prime, Electrical Blast/Willpower, 600 seconds, 192DPS. itaalh, Fire Blast/Bio Armor, 645 seconds, 187DPS. Based on these numbers we see that two players have wildly better Pylon times as compared to every other player. Most players reported dealing under 300DPS with their Sentinels. It's important to remember that all of these Pylon times were achieved with what can be considered min-maxed builds. I suspect that the average player will deal less than 200DPS with a Sentinel at level 50.

Every player that has posted a DPS number with a Sentinel over ~250DPS has used Mind Probe and Dominate to get there. I have argued this before; if an archetype relies upon two powers from a single epic set to provide the majority of their damage, then the damage that those two powers deal is not reflective of the archetype as a whole. It is an indication that Sentinel primaries (Blast Sets) are not dealing enough damage. If players create an attack chain out of Mind Probe, Dominate, and the two strongest attacks from a Sentinel blast set, then the blast set itself is partially inconsequential. The primary attacks are almost fillers while Mind Probe and Dominate refresh. Sentinel primaries need to deal more damage. The Psionic Mastery epic should probably be balanced with the other primaries.

You are incorrect. Several of the support power sets were released long after Hasten was introduced to the game. Key powers in those sets were given recharge times of either 120 seconds or 90 seconds specifically so that they could be made permanent with the recharge bonus provided by Hasten. This is not debatable; the original developers of the game discussed this on the old forums, and each power set was beta tested with this intent clearly stated. Cold Domination is a good example. Benumb (a -Regen power) is designed to be made permanent so that a player can prevent a difficult enemy from regenerating during combat. If the power was not able to be permanent, then it would lose a significant portion of its value. Temporal Selection from Time Manipulation is a second example of a power that was created long after Hasten was in the game. It was given a 120 second recharge. This set received a lot of feedback from players while it was in testing, and the developers actively responded to that feedback. i.e. They made their intent clear. Nature Affinity is a third example of a power set that was introduced later in the game with powers that have high recharge times that encourage a build to slot for high global recharge. Overgrowth and Wild Growth both fall in this category. Dominators were introduced to the game in Issue 6. Their inherent is intended act as a "feast and famine" mechanic that heavily promotes builds with high recharge. These high recharge builds force Dominators to sacrifice in other areas. Again, this was the design of the original developers of the game.

Every debuff set is balanced so as to require permanent Hasten to achieve permanent debuffs. Without the recharge offered by Hasten, most Defender/Corruptor/Controller buff/debuff sets would be strongly affected in a negative way. Players would have little incentive to play these sets because their powers would be unavailable for most fights. Illusion Control is balanced around the idea that the player will maximize their recharge. Without Hasten, Illusion Control will completely lose its singular draw of permanent Phantom Army. Dominators would be heavily affected in a negative way because the inherent ability Domination relies upon high recharge to be made permanent.

No reasonable person thinks that Hasten should be nerfed, and anyone who argues for Hasten nerfs is trying to diminish the play style that other players prefer, indifferent to the damage such a nerf would cause to other players' fun. No reasonable person thinks that a volunteer development team should spend the time to rebalance the recharge times of every power in the game.