Bopper

Sonic Attack does one thing well...and it does that one thing well for essentially one archetype. Overall, the set could use some love. So why not add a new mechanic that would be thematic to the set? How about we give Sonic Attack an Echo? I propose a mechanic that would apply a unique Damage over Time effect that diminishes in strength for each tick of damage. This would be 3 ticks of damage, with the 1st tick doing 20% of the attack's damage scale (enhanceable), the 2nd tick doing 10%, and the 3rd tick doing 5%. Each tick will be cancel-on-miss and the percent chance for each tick will be dependent on the power. So your T1 and T2 (Shriek, Scream) may have a 75% chance for their ticks, but Shout could get an 80% chance for their ticks. *All numbers are simply thrown out as examples*. The ticks would be spaced by 1s with the first tick having a 1s delay. The nice thing with this DoT, the extra damage will be able to benefit from the power's own resistance debuffs and possibly follow-on attack's resistance debuffs. So it synergizes nicely in that regard. But let's look at just the damage portion, how much of a buff is this, exactly? It will depend on the percent chance of the ticks, but let's assume an 80% chance: Extra Damage = 20% x 80% + 10% x 80% x 80% + 5% x 80% x 80% x 80% = 16% + 6.4% + 2.56% = 24.96% So roughly, it is a 25% increase to the attack's damage, but spread out over a span of up to 3 seconds. That increase will benefit from the resistance debuffs, but the majority of that benefit exists during the opening burst of attacks as sustained attack chains will level out and the increase in damage settles back to the same 25% increase. If we look at 65%, the numbers become: Extra Damage = 20% x 65% + 10% x 65% x 65% + 5% x 65% x 65% x 65% = 13% + 4.225% + 1.37% = 18.60% Overall, the weights, the percent chances, and the number of ticks can all be configured to something that feels balanced. Challenges: Implementing a dampened DoT is probably not as easy as it sounds. Especially if it will be cancel on miss. If it wasn't cancel-on-miss, this could easily be implemented by replacing the DoT with a delayed damage effect for each "tick". So 20% happens at X% chance after 1s delay. 10% happens at X% chance after 2s delay. 5% happens at X% chance after 3s delay. However, that is a lot of effects to add just for a thematic mechanic. If we were to aim for a cancel on miss, this may require a DoT that does a grant power, with that granted power being the weighted damage. Could get messy, but still seems do-able. Anyways, that's the proposal. Short, mostly simple.

You only have a 16.24% chance to proc off of each target hit (not great). But you can hit multiple targets, so if you managed to hit 4 targets each time in your shockwave, you'd see a 50.78% probability of FF proc going off for you. 100% - (100% - 16.24%)^4 = 50.78%

It is my understanding that if the Preventative Medicine Absorb Proc is slotted anywhere, it just works. But as Doomguide mentioned, the global120 procs, like Nunina, requires you to activate it. It will trigger 100% of the time and will last 120s, so keep that in mind.

It could be. If you can, I'd try to rebuild it.

What is your operating system? If its windows, go into control panel, then go to programs, select uninstall program. Scroll down to Mids Reborn and uninstall that.

It will depend on how someone presents it. But if folks are doing a Short/Long forum post, it will provide information about the Archetype, Primary, and Secondary. Those all follow a format. So you can do a search for... let's say: TankerPrimary Power Set: Stone ArmorSecondary Power Set: Super Strength Your search would be: "Tanker Primary Power Set: Stone Armor Secondary Power Set: Super Strength" And anyone who posted in that format will have the build available to you.

I don't think it's a good idea to do it how you suggest as there are both Primary and Secondary to consider. If I want to talk about a Rad/Sonic defender, I don't want to have to post in both the Radiation Emission sub-forum and also the Sonic-Attack sub-forum. What I'd rather see is Powerset sub-forums. So if I want to talk strictly about Time Manipulation, I can be talking to Defenders, Corruptors, Controllers, and Masterminds who play the set. If I want to talk Street Justice I can talk to Tankers, Brutes, Scrappers and Stalkers who play the set. If they can do something like that, cool. But it's fine as is, mostly.

Don't think so. Try Check for Updates in the Mids program. For more info on the latest, go here.

What version of mids do you have? You might want to ubinstall, them reinstall the program.

I tend to have trouble with Long Forum too. Try doing Short Forum post instead.

I didn't mean to overlook this, i just didn't have time to look into tonight. But I have my combat logs saved, I'll take a look at the double-hit rates soon to see if I'm also getting 100% or if it's more like 90%.

ugh...it's like it never ends. It's be interesting to see the test without Death Shroud on...in fact, why haven't I tested without Mud Pots on? SMH, alright, I would like to see what happens when I do that. As for other reasons why Core > Radial on a scrapper is crits. Not sure how often you get crits, but the global damage will boost that whereas the double hit only will proc off the casting of the power, not the special effects that may also trigger. Alright, give me 20 minutes, I'll do a few runs each for my build without Mud Pots on. Will be interesting to see. Update: Ran 3 tests for Core and 3 tests for Radial, with no Mud Pots. Core: Run 1: 3:47 Run 2: 3:53 Run 3: 3:54 Radial: Run 1: 3:44 (got KB'd...forgot to have Rooted toggled) Run 2: 3:10 Run 3: 3:14

In general, it seems we are seeing what we would expect. When your base damage values are high, Core will likely benefit more. When your base recharges are low, Core will likely benefit more. When your attacks are AoE, Core will likely benefit more. Granted, there is wiggle room there. For instance, I use Dark Obliteration, which is an AoE, but it greatly benefits from the fact is has 32s recharge (30s is capped double-hit damage, so some of the recharge is wasted), and the base damage is really low (Tanker's epics are a 0.8 scale for damage, and the scale for D.O. is only 0.9). I think in the case of Scrappers, Blasters, and Stalkers you will see Core almost always win out. Tankers generally will want Core (lots of AoE), but there are situations where proc-monster builds leveraging long recharge attacks for higher proc probabilities will be geared towards desiring Radial. But if they have a Damage aura, then probably not. In the end, I think every build will need their own analysis to determine what's best, but in general, as you said, DPS characters will generally prefer Core and Support will generally prefer Radial. Woof...Blizzard is not going to do good with Double-Hit...if it's even working. First thing, it's a pseudopet, so we would have to find out if the Double-Hit effect is passed to pseudopets (and maybe pets?) when you summon them. Let's say it does, let's see what kind of damage we could expect from a Blizzard pseudopet that has an activation period of 0.2s and a 30 foot radius. DbleHitDMG = 0.4 x 107.0897 x 0.11 x minmax(ActivatePeriod, 0s, 2s) / AreaFactor DblHitDMG = 0.4 x 107.0897 x 0.11 x 0.2 / (1 + 0.15 x 30) = 0.1713 damage per proc. How often will it proc? I think it would be this: ProcChance = 6 x 10s / 60s / (1 + 0.15 x 0.75 x 30) = 22.857% So every 10s you will have 22.86% chance at doing 0.17 damage (would that even show up as an orange number?). So yeah, Blizzard needs Core. Or they need to fix Double-Hit to use the 10s activate period if the procs are only going to happen every 10s anyways. Are you referring to Base Damage or Base Recharge? I'll assume Damage, but please correct me if I'm wrong. I use RubyRed's API tool (link in sig). I might not be dead-on-balls accurate, but it should be close. I should double check in game, but sometimes the in game numbers lie. For example, Tanker's Gloom is way off (it does less damage than the 113.53 or whatever it says it does). I also used this tool to verify the Double-Hit damage formula, which is why I am using 107.0897 instead of the standard 107.09 or 107.1 we tend to see. I trust their tool is reading in the number exactly. As for mids with Titan Weapons, I wouldn't trust it...the redirected powers are needing a full sweep for damage updating. If there is a number specific that you see as possibly wrong, let me know and I'll double-check. But to be certain, I'll share everything I see from the API tool (note, while typing these out, I noticed I missed the fact the Titan Weapon's with DoTs are cancel on miss, so I need to correct my mistake here): (all base_values are 52.8297; damage = base_value x scale) Punch: scale = 1.0, damage = 52.83 Haymaker: scale = 1.64, damage = 86.64 Knockout Blow: scale = 3.56, damage = 188.07 Foot Stomp: scale = 1.42, damage = 75.02 Follow Through: scale1 = 2.156, scale2 = 4 ticks (85% cancel on miss) of 0.1 scale damage = 52.8297 * [2.156 + (0.85+0.85^2+0.85^3+0.85^4)*0.1] = 52.8297*2.426863125 = 128.21 Whirling Smash: scale1 = 1.15, scale2 = 3 ticks (85% cancel on miss) of 0.1 scale damage = 52.8297*[1.15 + (0.85+0.85^2+0.85^3)*0.1] = 52.8297*1.3686625 = 72.31 Clobber: scale = 1.804, damage = 95.30 Rend Armor: scale = 3.212, damage = 169.69 Arc of Desctruction: scale = 2.596, damage = 137.15 For the epics all base_values are 44.4882 Gloom: scale = 8 ticks of 0.22 scale, damage = 44.4882 x 0.22 x 8 = 78.30 Dark Obliteration: scale = 0.9, damage = 40.04 Since I did notice some wrong numbers, I will go back and edit previous posts to reflect the correct numbers.

Ok, quick test using Assault Core: Run 1: 2:53 Run 2: 2:43 Run 3: 3:25 (This I might throw out. There's a chance I didn't wait for Rage to wear off and I corrupted the test with an extra crash). Run 4: 2:39 Run 5: 2:52 Run 6: 3:22 (Legit run...just didn't go well, got a rage crash when I was one knockout blow away from ending it) However, I went back and looked at my Radial Times and they are actually very close to these as well. 2:37 2:43 2:46 2:47 2:52 2:54 So I'm starting to wonder if my non-Hybrid times of 3:01, 3:03, 3:27, and 3:33 just included two unicorn times in the span of 4 runs. I should test more without Hybrid and see what the true performance is.

First off, I owe you testing. I'm sorry I haven't had time to get to it yet, but I'll try it tonight. But I love discussing theory, and I think it's fun if I can provide my thoughts now so that I can eat crow later when I know you'll prove me wrong haha. Ok, on with the show... There are really so many variables in play that it is hard to say there is a definite consensus on what should be used. In general, Core might be better on DPS sets and Radial might be better on Support sets. However, I don't think it is a hard set guideline. I think it is all based on base damage of an attack, the recharge, and the AoE. I looked through most of your Proc Monster Tanker thread (first 6 pages, I think), and I came across two things you tested (Bio/SS and SR/TW) that seems to merit comparing here. You tested a Bio/SS/Soul build and threw in a couple of runs with Core active (but I never saw Radial active). The rotation I believe you said you used was Punch>Haymaker>Gloom>KoB>Haymaker>Punch (I assume you meant Punch>Haymaker, as a back-to-back Punch might not be what you did). I added those powers to my spreadsheet, assumed no recharge slotted, and factored in the 6 PPM Double Hit proc probability into the difference (positive diff means Radial is better). Base 75% Dmg (core) 6ppm Proc (radial) DblHit Chance diff Cross Punch 87.22 65.42 56.01 81.21% -19.93 KoB 188.07 141.05 186.76 90.00% 27.04 Foot Stomp 75.02 56.27 46.92 82.23% -17.68 Gloom 78.30 58.73 97.67 90.00% 29.17 Punch 52.83 39.62 42.84 52.00% -17.35 Haymaker 86.64 64.98 70.25 90.00% -1.75 Dark Obliteration 40.04 30.03 68.01 90.00% 31.18 With your chain, Punch benefits quite a bit from Core and Haymaker slightly does too. Knockout Blow and Gloom prefer radial, but assuming a chain of P>H>G>KoB>P>H, you're looking at a net of Core only losing 18.01 points of damage over a course of roughly 10 seconds. So the 1.8 DPS loss probably does not matter given the gains you would get from your damage toggle (which gives +2.972 DPS). So in the case of the build and the rotation, I would think, Core would be very similar to Radial, with Core winning out. But I'm not totally certain this was tested on this build. So I'll turn my focus to the SR/TW build that you used that compared Core with Radial. In the case of TW, the base damage is so inflated and the recharge is low, and the AoEs are large, that I would think Core should win out, but I'll run the numbers. I'll use Fast Mode for all Proc calculations. I don't know your rotations, but it might not matter. Here is a breakdown of the most popular attacks from the set: Base 75% Dmg 6ppm Proc DblHit Chance diff CB 95.30 71.48 70.25 90.00% -8.25 FT 128.21 96.16 83.96 90.00% -20.59 RA 169.69 127.27 125.08 90.00% -14.69 AoD 137.15 102.86 94.13 90.00% -18.14 WS 72.31 54.23 34.27 55.81% -35.11 As we can see, in every case, the Core is far superior than the Radial. So, the numbers you saw when comparing Core with Radial are completely believable to me. Even without having a damage aura, the fast casts of that much superior performance would likely results in much higher DPS disparities. So...where does that leave us? I should test...and see. I didn't see as much of a difference with my Radial as I hoped, which makes me wonder if I just got lucky with my two near-3 minute times in a sample of maybe 6. Radial has been consistent for me, almost everything in the 2:35-2:45 range with my build, so I'm very curious if Core could break free for me a sub 2:30 time. I'll try to do a run now before dinner and try some more tonight before bed. I will definitelly keep you posted.

Aside from the higher resistance (assuming tank has Tough, Tanker ATO) and the higher HP. But yes, SR scrapper hitting iCap will likely be survivable enough. But...I'm going off track with the topic. I mentioned my thoughts, but I'm probably not adding anything else to the conversation at the moment. Sorry @Replacement if I distracted from the topic too much.

Given the Scrapper ATO, and the higher base damage, the Scrapper should easily win out. But yeah, it would be an interesting examination.

This is mostly my sentiment as well... There are obvious huge benefits that come with going for proc-monster builds. But the benefits don't seem any more so than what set bonuses in the game can already do, especially with all the new sets like ATOs and Winter that just throw tons of survivability at you. I view it all as trade space. You want to do proc damage? It will cost you survival. You want survival? It will cost you proc damage. If we get rid of one, everyone is just gonna gravitate to the other.

that being said, AoEs would get penalized quite a bit by incorporating the Double-Hit formula (it uses actual Area Factor, not PPM's dampened version), so that will help with some of the buzzsawing we're seeing in AoEs.

Still waking up...so I did not fully dive into the thread, so this is possibly already mentioned. But Double-Hit uses PPM. So although yes, the damage can scale, the PPM is still there. Double-Hit implementation just changes the game, but it will still be exploitable. Epics would be the big beneficiary as their damage from the higher base recharge is quite excessive. Being able to still get those to proc at 90% while giving them increased proc damage is probably not the route the devs want to go with.

I probably will when I get time this weekend. I'll probably do it like before, post the build, then fill in the details after. It will be a separate thread, but I can ping you when I post it.

I won't say anything definitive, as I would have to test it on beta and just see which works out better. However, using napkin math (excel math, honestly), you'd be surprised just how much Radial brings to the table and my numbers might suggest it's actually better than Core. However, the reason why I can't say with certainty actually has to do ENTIRELY with Mud Pots. I'm sure you're aware, but not everyone else is so I'll present this for education purposes. The Assault Radial gives your damaging attacks a 6 PPM proc and the damage from that proc will depend on the base recharge and Area Factor of the attack (similar to the design formula). For click power attacks, the formula is: DoubleHitDMG = 0.4 x 107.0897 x 0.2 x [0.8 x minmax(BaseRecharge, 1s, 30s) + 1.8] / AreaFactor where Area Factor is: AreaFactor = 1 + Radius x (11 x Arc + 540) / 30000 For toggles (and pseudopets, I imagine), the damage is calculated as: DoubleHitDMG = 0.4 x 107.0897 x 0.11 x minmax(ActivatePeriod, 0s, 2s) / AreaFactor In this case, the ActivatePeriod is the activation period of the toggle (for Mud Pots this is 2s). So when I crank out the numbers comparing the Double-Hit Damage from Radial with a maxed out Core (+75% damage), I get the following. Base 75% Dmg 6ppm Proc diff CP 87.22 65.42 56.01 -9.41 KoB 188.07 141.05 186.76 45.71 FS 75.02 56.27 46.92 -9.34 Gloom 78.30 58.73 97.67 38.94 DO 40.04 30.03 68.01 37.98 Mud Pots 9.51 7.13 4.28 n/a I left off the difference on Mud Pots for a reason, which I'll get to later. But if we just look at the attack rotation, only Cross-Punch and Foot Stomp improve from having Core over Radial, and it's only 9 damage different. However, Knockout Blow, Gloom, and Dark Obliteration each do roughly 40 more damage. But, we also must factor in the fact that as a 6 PPM proc, Cross-Punch and Knockout Blow are 81.2% and 82.2% chance to proc, respectively. All others are easily capped at 90%. So if I evaluate my rotation: CP>Gloom>D.O.>KoB>CP>Gloom>FS, we can calculate that to be an arcanatime of 12.144s. So let's call it 13s to factor in occasional gaps in fluctuating recharge. Now let's consider the 120s duration, with a 13s attack chain I can fit in 9.23 chains. Let's round that down to 9 chains to be fair...to factor in other things I might cast, which is really just Rage (Hasten and Ageless are on the same 120s duration). So 9 chains of 12.144s = 109.296s, which suggests I will have 10.704s of gaps and Rage casts. That is probably more than generous to assume. But it gives me a number to use, so let's use it. With 9 chains of the above mentioned rotation, we can expect the following added damage from Core and Radial (factoring 95% chance to hit and proc probabilities) Per Chain 9x Chains Attack Chain Core 451.85 4066.62 Attack Chain Rad 507.89 4571.01 A difference of 504.4 damage over the duration of the Hybrid. Or in another words, Radial adds 12.4% more damage than Core for the attack chain. Ok...so that was my motivation for choosing Radial, however as I was putting together this exercise I had to factor in Mud Pots (which I didn't really focus on before). This is where Core catches up...big time. Not only do we see Mudpots doing more damage with Core than it does with Radial, but that damage is applied every 2 seconds. HOWEVER (and I don't know if this is technically working as intended...but it's working as designed, I think), the Double-Hit proc seems to still check once every 10 seconds roughly. I did a 2 tests to see how many procs I got from Radial over the duration of the Hybrid, and those tests produced 5 and 7 procs. So I strongly suspect the probability to proc is equal to 6 x 10 / 60 / (1 + 8 x 0.15 x 0.75) = 1 / 1.9 = 52.63% every 10s. So if I wanted to compare Core to Radial for Mud Pots, the numbers would suggest the following, assuming 95% chance to hit per tick every 2 seconds. Not applying the 95% chance to the proc as I think if a tick misses, it will still get a chance on a subsequent tick. So I'll assume 52.63% chance to proc every 10 seconds: Total DMG Mud Pots Core 406.41 Mud Pots Radial 27.05 From these numbers, we can see Core GREATLY outproduces Radial for Damage Auras. By 379.4 damage! Combine this with the analysis from the attack chain and we get: 9x Chains Core Total DMG 4473.03 Radial Total DMG 4598.07 This shows Radial still outproduces, but it's only +125 damage (+2.8%). So...that all is mostly just food for thought. If I had a non damage aura like Invulnerability or Radiation Armor, then Radial would have been a clear choice given my slotting and attack chain. Since I have a damage aura, it is a bit of a toss up (should still test this though). As for Bio, I don't know which is better honestly. Bio has a damage aura, so that plays a big part, but I think either would do very well.

Foot Stomp is a gap filler. And I do hit double stacked rage...at least some of the time. I should record a run to see for certain, but I assume if my Hasten is perma, double stacked rage should be pretty close. I tend to be so laser focused on my rotation that I don't really monitor my attributes in real time. I did do some tests with Hybrid Assault Radial, and my runs tend to be pretty consistent in the 2:35-2:45 range. I would think Radial would be preferred over Core, but not sure. Gloom, KoB, and Cross Punch could get some good benefit, but yeah, I'll definitely try it out.

Love that you're playing the set. Be on the look out as I intend to also post my alternate builds of my Stone/SS tank. This is my DPS build, but I also have my Tank build which has some more regeneration and very high Psi Resistances (80+% iirc). Its damage isn't good, but it TANKS. Eventually, I also hope to also post the 3rd build, which is the more exemplar friendly non-granite build. It still uses granite but doesn't rely on it. As for this build, it's a lot of fun. I enjoy casually power leveling folks in AE using this DPS build as it's fun to roleplay as "Cocky Rocky", the Granite Tank braggart who will carry doorsitters to the greatness. Or splitting off from a team in a cave mission as I take half the map and they take the other half. Silly fun shennanigans.

I agree that every attack should do 5% chance to crit. But I also like having the primary get the benefit of 10% chance to crit on Bosses, etc. In your testing, did you try using the ATO to proc a Critical Buff? There's a chance it simply is bugged in the console log. Might need to watch for orange numbers