DELETE Hasten, SLIGHTLY ALTER all enemies, SLIGHTY ALTER all player powers

[TheAdjustor]

4 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Where did I say any of those things?  Now you're just trying to put words in my mouth in a tantrum.

In troll thread trolls do trollish things.

 

I know this is ridiculous but this thread has required reading

 

 

to see where it came from. I wish I had captured Steampuk/Cutethulu's post before she edited it but it really does illuminate things.

Edited September 26, 2019 by TheAdjustor

[ShardWarrior]

2 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Turnabout is fair play.

Except I never tried to put words into anyone's mouth.  I simply disagree with the topic, which seems to be a capital crime to some.

[DR_Mechano]

13 minutes ago, biostem said:

So we should give everything away for free, yes?  Instant level 50s and IOs, right?  Maybe we should just let players pick whatever powers they want totally freeform, irrespective of AT.  There are obviously some things you support in the name of balance, yet you have a blind spot with regard to hasten...

Hasten is one power that you have to invest HEAVILY in IOs in order to make things work, Perma hasten is not 'free' in any sense of the word, taking hasten is free and if it's slotted with 3 level 50 recharge IOs in it isn't even close to perma, not only that unless you heavily build for sustained recovery (which you can't do until you're much later in levels) you'll burn through your endurance must faster since you're spamming heavy attacks faster.

 

Also most people don't not slot for recharge, in fact a lot of the so called 'OP builds' will actually use sets which...oh my god...they have a recharge on them. Whats that my phantom army actually has a level 50 +5 Recharge IO in it along with a 5 SET OF A RECHARGE INTENSIVE PET WHICH TAKES ALL OF THE ONES THAT INCLUDE RECHARGE since that is literally the only way possible to get the most out of PA's recharge even WITH the +recharge alpha Incarnate bonus.

 

5 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Ah, yes... The "We can't fix anything until we fix everything else" argument. The Paralysis of Lists. Good stuff.

No it's the "there is so much shit that is way more important than fixing hasten" argument.

Edited September 26, 2019 by DR_Mechano

[Fan Mail]

So you drop Hasten as an available power in a power pool so you can pick what that you already can't pick?  If it's a power pool variety issue, I'd rather see the ability to dip into more than four pools changed.  Leave Hasten be. 

[Infinitum]

Just now, biostem said:

Absolutely - take 1 power should not so drastically increase the performance of a character when compared to one who doesn't/didn't.

by that definition all power pools can do that, someone who doesnt take fly or afterburner is drastically more powerful than someone that has super speed in places like the shadow shard.

 

Should all characters have a heal? and ones that do not have one should they be required to take the medicine pool to get that heal?  Does that make medicine OP?

 

Teleportation can lead to insanely fast TF times even team skipping 90% of the content in them when combined with stealth, nerf that too?

 

thats choice though, not forced to take it or not to take it.  any of them.

 

that doesnt show how it imbalances the game.

[Infinitum]

5 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Turnabout is fair play.

 

But if people keep stuffing words into each others mouths it might become foreplay...

heh  thats funny i dont care who you are

[biostem]

5 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Where did I say any of those things?  Now you're just trying to put words in my mouth in a tantrum.

It was hyperbole, to demonstrate how you obviously have some semblance of where the line should be drawn with regard to how some powers confer a huge benefit but we shouldn't take things further;  You draw that line *after* hasten, and I'm making a case for why it should should be reigned in a bit more.

[Steampunkette]

4 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Except I never tried to put words into anyone's mouth.  I simply disagree with the topic, which seems to be a capital crime to some.

Which is why you asked when I would be nerfing Empathy and Spines/Fire. It's the same principle: A Strawman Argument.

 

You picked something that wasn't my position and held it up as my position. He did the same to you.

 

And nah, Shard. You didn't 'simply disagree'. You were insulting and fallacious. That's not a simple disagreement, that's intentional rudeness.

[ShardWarrior]

I draw the line at making changes that are no doubt going to drive a whole lot of people away, just like ED did - permanently. 

[ShardWarrior]

Just now, Steampunkette said:

You were insulting...

This coming from the person who tells people to "just go away" in "their" thread....  oh the irony. 😀

[Steampunkette]

6 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

No it's the "there is so much shit that is way more important than fixing hasten" argument.

The Paralysis of Lists is the same in any argument. "We can't fix X until we fix Y." when Y has nothing to do with X. I.E. Y is not a component of X.

 

Also known as the "Zero Sum" game.

[Black Zot]

[Steampunkette]

Just now, ShardWarrior said:

This coming from the person who tells people to "just go away" in "their" thread....  oh the irony. 😀

Being rude in response to someone who is rude to you isn't "Ironic" It isn't even unusual.

 

Honestly, it's the -expected- outcome.

 

But go ahead and keep on with the Faux Civility where I'm a 'bad person' for responding to unkindness with anything less than perfect manners.

[biostem]

13 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

by that definition all power pools can do that, someone who doesnt take fly or afterburner is drastically more powerful than someone that has super speed in places like the shadow shard.

Hmm.. seems flight in the shadow shard is a bit more specific of a case than, say, a global recharge buff.

 

13 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Should all characters have a heal? and ones that do not have one should they be required to take the medicine pool to get that heal?  Does that make medicine OP?

All characters *do* have a heal - in the form of rest and the regen from health.  Now maybe you're talking about a more burst/all in one go type of heal, but even then, it doesn't fall into the same category.  The fact that the medicine pool isn't taken as often as hasten demonstrates that.

 

13 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Teleportation can lead to insanely fast TF times even team skipping 90% of the content in them when combined with stealth, nerf that too?

Again, not the same case, and the numbers don't back it up.

 

13 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

thats choice though, not forced to take it or not to take it.  any of them.

 

that doesnt show how it imbalances the game.

The cost to benefit ratio of taking or not taking hasten demonstrates that;  1 power pick for a~70% global recharge buff is too good.

Edited September 26, 2019 by biostem

[TheAdjustor]

1 minute ago, Steampunkette said:

The Paralysis of Lists is the same in any argument. "We can't fix X until we fix Y." when Y has nothing to do with X. I.E. Y is not a component of X.

 

Also known as the "Zero Sum" game.

You can't actually fix anything until you have a clear and meaningful definition of what fixing something means or what broken is.

 

So far you have tossed out that

1) too many people take it  (after saying not enough people take it so there's no need for other options) so it should be removed

2) too many people take it so screw with it and add another power that may or may not have a net zero effect )color me confuseled)

3) It somehow violates game balance (no mention of what game balance is meant to be, or just how it violates it)

 

I suppose game balance is like porn and the supreme court, you know it when you see it, unless it's art.

[Infinitum]

Just now, biostem said:

Hmm.. seems flight in the shadow shard is a bit more specific of a case than, say, a global recharge buff.

 

All characters *do* have a heal - in the form of rest and the regen from health.  Now maybe you're talking about a more burst/all in one go type of heal, but even then, it doesn't fall into the same category.  The fact that the medicine pool isn't taken as often as hasten demonstrates that.

 

Again, not the same case, and the numbers don't back it up.

 

The cost to benefit ratios of taking or not taking hasten demonstrates that;  1 power pick for a~70% global recharge buff is too good.

Lets race in the shard then, you with ss and me with fly, i wont even use afterburner.

 

you are saying rest is a heal?  lol  come on man.  it does fall into the same category because not every character has access to a burst heal unless they take the medicine pool.

 

that doesnt show how it imbalances the game though.  it just shows what hasten does, not what it does to break the game.

 

You are attempting to make hasten something its not to prove your point but you cant do either because you dont even know where your point is here.

[DR_Mechano]

11 minutes ago, biostem said:

The cost to benefit ratios of taking or not taking hasten demonstrates that;  1 power pick for a~70% global recharge buff is too good.

According to you and Steampunkette and literally nobody else.

 

You can't prove that nerfing hasten DOES improve the health of the game.

 

Hell Steampunkette is actually offering a decent compromise that keeps things the same but moves some of the recharge boost elsewhere.

 

You're literally the only person we've seen arguing for Hasten to be straight up nerfed into ground.

 

Hell according to the ticker going off on my like thingymajig up there in the corner apparently my suggestion for making Hasten and inherent and then balancing the game around hasten BEING inherent and Perma-Hasten being a thing that can happen seemed more popular. It achieves the exact same result, it gives everyone a new base-line normal and buffs builds that otherwise can't spare the room to take hasten.

 

Straight up nerfing hasten is just going to end up causing problems, people aren't going to like it at ALL. You also haven't commented on the fact that, as I've repeatedly said, HC is no longer the only Rogue Server, there's CoXg and Rebirth...while they have lesser population (at the moment...probably not if they nerf hasten into the ground) and things are harder to do since they don't get the P2W vendor any change big enough to piss off a lot of people will result in them moving to a server which HASN'T nerfed hasten.

13 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

The Paralysis of Lists is the same in any argument. "We can't fix X until we fix Y." when Y has nothing to do with X. I.E. Y is not a component of X.

 

Also known as the "Zero Sum" game.

Sure back when the dev team was 50 people strong that would have been the case. We have ONE person working on the powers now...so yeah he literally CAN'T do X until Y is fixed...

Edited September 26, 2019 by DR_Mechano

[Steampunkette]

4 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

Sure back when the dev team was 50 people strong that would have been the case. We have ONE person working on the powers now...so yeah he literally CAN'T do X until Y is fixed...

Yes. He can do X before Y is fixed. Or Z. Or A. He can do shit in any order he and the others choose.

 

Some fixes are easier than others. The change I've offered up is low-hanging fruit. Add +25% Recharge to everyone's 100% baseline Recharge, Reduce the Cooldown of Hasten, Reduce the Recharge Value of Hasten.

 

Compare that to digging through the Pet AI and figuring out which of the three (or if it's all of the three) versions of baseline pet AI needs to be snipped to make the system work (If any of them can even be pulled out...) Plus the -rest- of that spaghetti...

 

Honestly, editing powers themselves is likely the -easiest- part of working on this game because each power is self-contained as a process. Except shit like Fury and Domination where it's actually, like, 6 separate powers working together hidden behind a single power in your UI...

[Haijinx]

I would actually agree Hasten is too good.

 

I'd totally have been against it, you know, back in beta.  

 

 

[biostem]

7 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

Hell according to the ticker going off on my like thingymajig up there in the corner apparently my suggestion for making Hasten and inherent and then balancing the game around hasten BEING inherent and Perma-Hasten being a thing that can happen seemed more popular. It achieves the exact same result, it gives everyone a new base-line normal and buffs builds that otherwise can't spare the room to take hasten.

That's an appeal to popularity.  I'm sure most kids don't like shots, either.

 

8 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

You also haven't commented on the fact that, as I've repeatedly said, HC is no longer the only Rogue Server, there's CoXg and Rebirth...while they have lesser population (at the moment...probably not if they nerf hasten into the ground) and things are harder to do since they don't get the P2W vendor any change big enough to piss off a lot of people will result in them moving to a server which HASN'T nerfed hasten.

And your point is?  In general, I don't want to see people leave, either, but that doesn't mean concepts like balance or not caving in to the masses is an all-or-nothing scenario.

 

Look, it's obvious my opinion on the matter is unpopular.  I'm not going to bother replying any more because it's just not worth the energy to do so anymore.  I still hold to my position.  Cheers!

[DR_Mechano]

4 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Yes. He can do X before Y is fixed. Or Z. Or A. He can do shit in any order he and the others choose.

 

Some fixes are easier than others. The change I've offered up is low-hanging fruit. Add +25% Recharge to everyone's 100% baseline Recharge, Reduce the Cooldown of Hasten, Reduce the Recharge Value of Hasten.

 

Compare that to digging through the Pet AI and figuring out which of the three (or if it's all of the three) versions of baseline pet AI needs to be snipped to make the system work (If any of them can even be pulled out...) Plus the -rest- of that spaghetti...

 

Honestly, editing powers themselves is likely the -easiest- part of working on this game because each power is self-contained as a process. Except shit like Fury and Domination where it's actually, like, 6 separate powers working together hidden behind a single power in your UI...

Notice how I mentioned I didn't mind your compromise that keeps things the same but distributes the recharge differently. However balancing changes like Energy Melee or Regen (which also only involve changing power numbers) are way more important. Sets that are considered the dogs dinner due to previous overnerfing need to be worked on (since it's kind of agreed that both those sets need major buffs) more than Hasten which...currently...apart from what you and Bio, doesn't really seem to be a problem...like...at all...

[DR_Mechano]

4 minutes ago, biostem said:

That's an appeal to popularity.  I'm sure most kids don't like shots, either.

Yes but Shots stop kids from dying. Hasten staying the way it is literally changes nothing. Mind you you're not going to reply to this so why am I even bothering.

 

Jesus H Christ now I know what it feels like to get involved in American Political discussions...

[TheAdjustor]

7 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I would actually agree Hasten is too good.

 

I'd totally have been against it, you know, back in beta.  

 

 

Maybe. I can see how that case could be made, but there's lots of other things that would need to changed maybe even the whole concept of recharge in the game.

 

That said, If you are going to say hasten is too good, I gotta say the ability to softcap defense while hardcapping resistance is completely bonkers by comparison. You can literally build a character with hundreds maybe low thousands the amount of survivability of character that hasn't gone that route.

Edited September 26, 2019 by TheAdjustor

[MunkiLord]

This is the results from 9-25, clearly those of us that don't want Hasten changed are speaking the will of the people, so we win.

Edited September 26, 2019 by MunkiLord

[TheAdjustor]

 

2 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

This is the results from 9-25, clearly the people that don't want Hasten changed are speaking the will of the people, so we win.

Vox populi vox dei.

Edited September 26, 2019 by TheAdjustor