Small suggestion: No more nerf herding threads

[TheAdjustor]

They were forbidden on live because they did little but upset people, and even in the best case, that there was a real issue that needed to be fixed left a giant gulf of bitterness.

 

There's little to no change on homecoming.

 

Possible exceptions would be where there has been a meaningful effort by the author to demonstrate why something "NEEDS" to be done.

Edited September 26, 2019 by TheAdjustor
left out the word case

[Snakebit]

The only exception I would make is regen. 

 

Nerf that sumbitch. 

[Infinitum]

3 hours ago, TheAdjustor said:

They were forbidden on live because they did little but upset people, and even in the best case, that there was a real issue that needed to be fixed left a giant gulf of bitterness.

 

There's little to no change on homecoming.

 

Possible exceptions would be where there has been a meaningful effort by the author to demonstrate why something "NEEDS" to be done.

Second and Third this.  

 

Its getting ridiculous in here.

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, cejmp said:

The only exception I would make is regen. 

 

Nerf that sumbitch. 

And Energy Melee

 

Energy Transfer should have a 9 second animation time, and an additional 22 second interrupt.

 

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

And Energy Melee

 

Energy Transfer should have a 9 second animation time, and an additional 22 second interrupt.

 

And whirling hands radius is TOO FREAKIN LARGE, 1 ft thats it.... no more no less, otherwise the servers will soon melt.

[Purrfekshawn]

[TheAdjustor]

@Purrfekshawn

 

Love that pic.

 

[Rathulfr]

One person's "nerf herd" is another's "improvement".  There's no way to determine which is the appropriate descriptor unless/until we are free to discuss it.

How about, "no more suppressing dissenting opinions"?  Would that be a "nerf herd" or an "improvement"?  YMMV

 

/jranger

 

[Starforge]

Suggestions for making a power worse than it would currently be is indeed a nerf. The OP would like, I'm assuming, to see more threads about suggestions for improving under-performing powers/sets. I'd like to see more of that also.

[Rathulfr]

30 minutes ago, Starforge said:

Suggestions for making a power worse than it would currently be is indeed a nerf. The OP would like, I'm assuming, to see more threads about suggestions for improving under-performing powers/sets. I'd like to see more of that also.

 

I'm pretty sure the OP is referring to the "Delete Hasten" thread, which -- while poorly titled and half-baked -- wasn't actually intended to be a straight-up "nerf".  The OP of that thread thought they were offering a legitimate improvement to the game (albeit of admittedly limited utility), that did turn out (after much discussion) to be an actual nerf.  Should the post have been shut down immediately when this net-nerf was pointed out?  Or should we, as a community, have the opportunity to discuss and/or refine such suggestions before crying "NERF!" and stifling further comments?

 

To paraphrase an old adage, "one man's nerf is another man's treasure".  That may not always be the case, as indeed it seems was the case with any suggestion that a change to a sacred cow like Hasten might be worth considering.  But that doesn't mean we should pre-emptively shutdown any further such discussions, no matter how sacred or unpopular the topic might be.

 

Ask not for whom the censorship bell tolls, because soon enough, it will toll for thee.

 

Edited September 27, 2019 by Rathulfr

[TheAdjustor]

49 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

 

I'm pretty sure the OP is referring to the "Delete Hasten" thread, which -- while poorly titled and half-baked -- wasn't actually intended to be a straight-up "nerf".  The OP of that thread thought they were offering a legitimate improvement to the game (albeit of admittedly limited utility), that did turn out (after much discussion) to be an actual nerf.  Should the post have been shut down immediately when this net-nerf was pointed out?  Or should we, as a community, have the opportunity to discuss and/or refine such suggestions before crying "NERF!" and stifling further comments?

 

To paraphrase an old adage, "one man's nerf is another man's treasure".  That may not always be the case, as indeed it seems was the case with any suggestion that a change to a sacred cow like Hasten might be worth considering.  But that doesn't mean we should pre-emptively shutdown any further such discussions, no matter how sacred or unpopular the topic might be.

 

Ask not for whom the censorship bell tolls, because soon enough, it will toll for thee.

 

Actually I am referring to all threads of the Form "X is too good please nerf"

 

Matter of fact anything of the form

 

Dear Devs

Scissors are fine, please nerf paper

 

Sincerely yours

Your friend Rock

[Heraclea]

38 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

Actually I am referring to all threads of the Form "X is too good please nerf"

 

Matter of fact anything of the form

 

Dear Devs

Scissors are fine, please nerf paper

 

Sincerely yours

Your friend Rock

FWIW, the drama started with the proposed destruction of Titan Weapons. 

[TheAdjustor]

7 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

FWIW, the drama started with the proposed destruction of Titan Weapons. 

This was a "Forum Sport" back on live, largely fueled by Castle building a cult of personality.  I had hoped it would be gone with him especially seeing as the homecoming developers don't have those kinds of problems yet. Silly me for being an optimist.

 

 

 

[Burnt Toast]

Frankly I am tired of all the "buff/change" these powers/options etc to make things easier threads... seriously the game is super easy already, but it seems like a lot of people want an "I win" button. There is a CoH server that offers that.... they need people there so....have at it. 

[TheAdjustor]

5 minutes ago, Burnt Toast said:

Frankly I am tired of all the "buff/change" these powers/options etc to make things easier threads... seriously the game is super easy already, but it seems like a lot of people want an "I win" button. There is a CoH server that offers that.... they need people there so....have at it. 

Fair enough, I will just make the observation that the buff /change threads don't generally tick people off the way nerf herding does.

 

That's probably because anyone who wants to play a harder game can always do so. They can play without incarnates if they think they are game breaking, they can play without IOs if they think it makes the game to much of a walk, hell you can just not slot your build and take powers off your bar if you want a challenge.

 

It doesn't work the other way, and if somebody's toy gets broken it's usually not fixable.

[Infinitum]

8 hours ago, TheAdjustor said:

Fair enough, I will just make the observation that the buff /change threads don't generally tick people off the way nerf herding does.

 

That's probably because anyone who wants to play a harder game can always do so. They can play without incarnates if they think they are game breaking, they can play without IOs if they think it makes the game to much of a walk, hell you can just not slot your build and take powers off your bar if you want a challenge.

 

It doesn't work the other way, and if somebody's toy gets broken it's usually not fixable.

Yeah, I was going to say this but you beat me to it.

 

I have all kinds of characters, some of them are min maxed and OP but I like those that way.

 

Those are the ones you call in when thanos is about to snap his fingers.

 

I also have ones that are SG themed - an all MM Praetorian team, an all villain side blaster/corruptor theme, an all scrapper theme hero side.

 

We are slow leveling those on purpose and not slotting heavily to enjoy the stpries plots and surroundings.

 

I also have several other themes for solo characters Billy Lee from double dragons, a sj/Sr scrapper, and a few others.

 

But the maxed ones I don't waste my time on what Billy Lee would be fighting - billy Lee is save the city, Shadowstryke is save the universe, just like in the comics there are lesser heroes that have yet to realize their full potential.

 

You can literally play this game ANY way as it is now and I like that.

Edited September 28, 2019 by Infinitum

[Replacement]

When I see people against nerfs, I see "these are my toys and if you take them I'm going home."

 

Imagine a scenario where an FPS game buffs all the guns to compete with the best gun.  Congratulations, you just nerfed everyone's health.

 

Nerfs prevent the game from losing its core gameplay loops.  It's really the heart of the cottage rule: no one wants to log on and find the game isn't what it was supposed to be.  And you do that by reigning in abuses before they distort the game. 

 

I wish the gaming community writ-large would grow up and realize it's good for a game.

 

But hey, continue on with your popular +10 likes posts.

 

Edited September 28, 2019 by Replacement

[TheAdjustor]

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

When I see people against nerfs, I see "these are my toys and if you take them I'm going home."

Well that's a mistake and shows why it's important to actually read things.  I am not against nerfs I am against nerf herding threads and I am not even against all of them just those  that are either deliberately or by accident take the form of giant trolls.

 

The delete hasten thread is a good example of this.

Quote

Nerfs prevent the game from losing its core gameplay loops.  It's really the heart of the cottage rule: no one wants to log on and find the game isn't what it was supposed to be.  And you do that by reigning in abuses before they distort the game

 

What are it's core gameplay loops ? and just how do you think the cottage rule applies here ?

 

The way gameplay loops, is used there looks like it's meant as a signifier meant for people to just look at and say "yeah we can't have that". If you fill in the details of what gameplay loops you want preserved you are going to find lots of disagreement on that. Personally much of live gameplay was there because originally paragon studios was desperately worried that people would drop the game like a hot potato if they didn't include a large amount of grinding, and or wanted to maximize the amount they took off the players. $10 for a name change or a respec ?

 

I'm not a great fan of the cottage rule, seeing as it was mostly used as an excuse and was violated  when convenient, even so  it's hard to reconcile how you view making changes to a game that has been gone for 7+ years will preserve things and keep cottages cottages instead of anything else.

 

Quote

Imagine a scenario where an FPS game buffs all the guns to compete with the best gun.  Congratulations, you just nerfed everyone's health.

 

 

Errr no not even close.  Unless you are talking about PvP and PvP doesn't play by the same rules as PvE in this game.

[MunkiLord]

Nerf threads don't bother me, I'm all for keeping them around, so I disagree with the OP

 

2 hours ago, Replacement said:

When I see people against nerfs, I see "these are my toys and if you take them I'm going home."

This game is a toy. It's quite literally a thing we use for entertainment. So if it changes in a way that makes it less and/or not fun for a person, they should take their stuff and go home. Because if it's not fun, then it is 100% pointless.

 

So I ask, what's wrong with the attitude of "these are my toys and if you take them I'm going home." as it relates to entertainment?

[Rathulfr]

1 hour ago, TheAdjustor said:

Well that's a mistake and shows why it's important to actually read things.  I am not against nerfs I am against nerf herding threads and I am not even against all of them just those  that are either deliberately or by accident take the form of giant trolls.

 

The delete hasten thread is a good example of this.

 

The "Delete Hasten" thread is not good example of this.  The OP was not trolling in any way, shape, or form.  The OP pointed out a problem they thought was important to them, and they suggested a constructive (albeit flawed) solution.  That is not "trolling", by any definition.

 

And this is precisely my problem with this thread: you're trying to impose your own definition of "nerf-herding" and "trolling" too broadly, to apply to any suggestion that you happen to dislike, and then assert that any opposition to such a definition should be preemptively censored.  That is a thing that should not be.

 

Edited September 28, 2019 by Rathulfr

[TheAdjustor]

28 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

 

The "Delete Hasten" thread is not good example of this.  The OP was not trolling in any way, shape, or form.  The OP pointed out a problem they thought was important to them, and they suggested a constructive (albeit flawed) solution.  That is not "trolling", by any definition.

 

Sorry it may have been important to them but it was still a troll. You can tell by the effects and the fact they had put nearly zero thought into the delete hasten thread. That isn't an opinion that's fact. You can tell by the time between their post in the Add a smidgen of recharge thread and the time they created the delete hasten thread.  Idea pops into head, it's written up with zero consideration of pretty much anything, and even less thought of what it was trying to do.

 

Quote

And this is precisely my problem with this thread: you're trying to impose your own definition of "nerf-herding" and "trolling" too broadly, to apply to any suggestion that you happen to dislike

So you are saying I am only against nerfs ? If you recall I dislike your suggestion of giving everyone extra recharge for free. I haven't called for anything against that, or any of the vast number of suggestions of that form I disagree with.

 

The delete X, X is to powerful must be toned down,  anything that purports to "restore balance to the game" without even communicating an idea of what balance should where it is now and why it needs to be moved back is going to be incredibly divisive no matter what because everyone has different ideas and opinions of what those things should be.

 

Take a look at the Nerf TW thread. Where you had people arguing on the basis of a spreadsheet that had TW at the top and Claws at the bottom of all melee primaries, while actual testing so far shows Claws in the #2 spot and much less differential overall. 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2019 by TheAdjustor

[Infinitum]

31 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

 

The "Delete Hasten" thread is not good example of this.  The OP was not trolling in any way, shape, or form.  The OP pointed out a problem they thought was important to them, and they suggested a constructive (albeit flawed) solution.  That is not "trolling", by any definition.

 

And this is precisely my problem with this thread: you're trying to impose your own definition of "nerf-herding" and "trolling" too broadly, to apply to any suggestion that you happen to dislike, and then assert that any opposition to such a definition should be preemptively censored.  That is a thing that should not be.

 

Yeah it was, perhaps not initially or intentionally, but it stubbornly ended up there through the "obey my math rules and bow before my supremacy" attitudes getting thrown out at those of us that just want a fun escape from reality.

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, MunkiLord said:

Nerf threads don't bother me, I'm all for keeping them around, so I disagree with the OP

 

This game is a toy. It's quite literally a thing we use for entertainment. So if it changes in a way that makes it less and/or not fun for a person, they should take their stuff and go home. Because if it's not fun, then it is 100% pointless.

 

So I ask, what's wrong with the attitude of "these are my toys and if you take them I'm going home." as it relates to entertainment?

Buzz was a Child's plaything.

[Haijinx]

9 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

Sorry it may have been important to them but it was still a troll. You can tell by the effects and the fact they had put nearly zero thought into the delete hasten thread. That isn't an opinion that's fact. You can tell by the time between their post in the Add a smidgen of recharge thread and the time they created the delete hasten thread.  Idea pops into head, it's written up with zero consideration of pretty much anything, and even less thought of what it was trying to do.

 

 

Oh I don't know she had a hard job, trying to come up with an alternative that reduced the problem she perceived but not anger too many people in the process. 

 

Trying to predict other people's reactions and what they might find acceptable is tough.  

[TheAdjustor]

6 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Oh I don't know she had a hard job, trying to come up with an alternative that reduced the problem she perceived but not anger too many people in the process. 

 

Trying to predict other people's reactions and what they might find acceptable is tough.  

Well she claimed it was for game balance, we never did get an idea of what game balance she was trying to restore, and finally had a series of proposals that were to have no net effect, and would require an incredible amount of work to implement.

 

At what point do you say troll ?

 

Quote

Trying to predict other people's reactions and what they might find acceptable is tough.  

Come on, really ? It's hard to predict how people will react to "I want to nerf something 80%+ of the game is using ?

Edited September 28, 2019 by TheAdjustor