Focused Feedback: Tank Updates for October 1st, 2019

[DreadShinobi]

2 hours ago, csr said:

 

IMO, Captain Powerhouse's comment about Scrappers not being meant to hold aggro of multiple foes is as dated as the idea that Tankers shouldn't be damage dealers. 

100% agree here.

[MunkiLord]

I took Provoke on my Arch/Time Blaster, so I think the solution is more taunt for everyone, not less.

[Haijinx]

Im okay with the current scrapper situation personally. 

 

I just brought it up in response to the suggestion Kheld Dwarfs don't need Taunt Auras.

 

 

[Vanden]

3 hours ago, csr said:

MO, Captain Powerhouse's comment about Scrappers not being meant to hold aggro of multiple foes is as dated as the idea that Tankers shouldn't be damage dealers.

100% agree, but only on the semantic level where the idea that Tankers shouldn't do damage isn't dated, but rather entirely off-base. Otherwise, 100% disagree. What exactly has changed about the game since launch that means Scrappers should be filling the role of aggro management, where that wasn't expected in the past?

[Haijinx]

Perhaps taunt auras should be normalized by AT. 

 

Scrappers generally dont care how good the auras are just that they exist.  Tankers care a lot, which leads to suggestions that WP and SR tankers are not good.  

 

How does Scrapper Inv taunt aura compare to Tanker WP taunt aura atm?  

[siolfir]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

I find it funny to think the caps on Scrappers mean they can't take aggro....

 

Back in I8 an invul tanker had less survivability than many scrapper blaster builds do now.

Fixed that for you.

 

36 minutes ago, Vanden said:

What exactly has changed about the game since launch that means Scrappers should be filling the role of aggro management, where that wasn't expected in the past?

Player capabilities, both through new powersets and enhancements.

 

Honestly, the role of "aggro management" on small teams consists of "who has mez protection?" because you want someone taking the attention who isn't going to be immediately stopped after the first mez. Scrappers fit the bill there - so do Stalkers, but they have powers that specifically shed aggro and redistribute it to other team members. Taunt auras make it easier but they aren't essential.

 

Also, Energy Aura originally was available only for Brutes and Stalkers, and didn't have a taunt aura. It was changed to have one for Brutes because not having a taunt aura and having a stealth power made it the worst set for maintaining Fury on teams, if you could get on one in the first place due to Brutes being the only "aggro-gathering" AT redside at the time. I had a pre-buff DM/EA, and you were either always switching targets or using Taunt every time it recharged just to keep a small spawn's attention on you if anyone else was doing damage. I think that Scrappers get the taunt as part of the port, just because a lot of the proliferation decisions seemed to be based on the porting low-hanging fruit with the least amount of changes required.

[Vanden]

6 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Player capabilities, both through new powersets and enhancements.

I think you're going to have to expand on this, because it sounds like you're saying that because there are some new sets with taunt auras, it means the whole AT's intended team function should shift. That's like saying that since some newer Stalker melee sets have more AoE attacks than earlier ones, Stalkers should be an AoE damage AT now. And because you can build for better defenses with IOs, Scrappers should be encouraged to take the aggro of bigger and bigger spawns, simply because they can survive it now where they couldn't before. But that's true of every AT, and by that logic you could claim that Defenders or Blasters should be able to manage aggro, too.

[macskull]

2 hours ago, siolfir said:

I think that Scrappers get the taunt as part of the port, just because a lot of the proliferation decisions seemed to be based on the porting low-hanging fruit with the least amount of changes required.

Scrappers also get the taunt component as part of the port. I've had at least two people quote me saying that it isn't shown ingame or in Mids and those people are correct - the ingame numbers and Mids often lack all the information about the power so you have to look in places like City of Data, which shows a 2.25s mag 3 taunt. This makes it one of the weaker taunt auras from any defensive set, but it is there.

[macskull]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

I think you're going to have to expand on this, because it sounds like you're saying that because there are some new sets with taunt auras, it means the whole AT's intended team function should shift. That's like saying that since some newer Stalker melee sets have more AoE attacks than earlier ones, Stalkers should be an AoE damage AT now. And because you can build for better defenses with IOs, Scrappers should be encouraged to take the aggro of bigger and bigger spawns, simply because they can survive it now where they couldn't before. But that's true of every AT, and by that logic you could claim that Defenders or Blasters should be able to manage aggro, too.

So... almost every new Stalker melee set keeps all the AoE of its non-Stalker version and in some cases (hello, Staff Fighting and Elec Melee) the Stalker versions are better than the version every other AT gets - and with the changes to the way Stalker crits work on teams (plus the Stalker ATO procs) Stalkers absolutely are an AoE damage AT now. They're basically slightly squishier Scrappers that can crit on command. If you really wanted to, you could dip into the Presence pool on a Blaster, Defender, Sentinel, or whatever else, and given the right build, manage aggro, at least until a Tank/Brute/Kheld shows up and pulls mobs off with their more-effective taunting.

 

Issue 18 blurred the lines between ATs when side-switching was introduced and it's been getting blurrier and blurrier ever since.

[Vanden]

27 minutes ago, macskull said:

So... almost every new Stalker melee set keeps all the AoE of its non-Stalker version and in some cases (hello, Staff Fighting and Elec Melee) the Stalker versions are better than the version every other AT gets - and with the changes to the way Stalker crits work on teams (plus the Stalker ATO procs) Stalkers absolutely are an AoE damage AT now.

I think you misunderstand. Stalkers get more AoE attacks than they used to, yes, but they're still the same smallish AoEs that Scrappers get (with a few notable exceptions), not the large and ranged AoEs that ATs like Blasters and Corruptors get.

[macskull]

Just now, Vanden said:

I think you misunderstand. Stalkers get more AoE attacks than they used to, yes, but they're still the same smallish AoEs that Scrappers get (with a few notable exceptions), not the large and ranged AoEs that ATs like Blasters and Corruptors get.

So are you saying that Scrappers aren't an AoE damage AT either?

[ryuplaneswalker]

37 minutes ago, macskull said:

This makes it one of the weaker taunt auras from any defensive set, but it is there.

All of the Scrapper Taunts are weaker than the brute/tank ones.

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, macskull said:

So are you saying that Scrappers aren't an AoE damage AT either?

Yes.

[macskull]

Just now, Vanden said:

Yes.

Ooooooookay then.

[Haijinx]

Just now, ryuplaneswalker said:

All of the Scrapper Taunts are weaker than the brute/tank ones.

For the same set.

 

What about different sets?

 

Is Scrapper Invincibility better than Tanker Rise to the Challenge taunt wise?

[macskull]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

For the same set.

 

What about different sets?

 

Is Scrapper Invincibility better than Tanker Rise to the Challenge taunt wise?

Scrapper Invincibility = 17 second mag 3 taunt. Tanker RttC = 1.25 second mag 3 taunt.

[csr]

4 hours ago, Vanden said:

100% agree, but only on the semantic level where the idea that Tankers shouldn't do damage isn't dated, but rather entirely off-base. Otherwise, 100% disagree. What exactly has changed about the game since launch that means Scrappers should be filling the role of aggro management, where that wasn't expected in the past?

First, Scrappers have Confront.  So they obviously were expected to manage some aggro.  Given Confront's quick recharge you can't even argue that it's meant for just one foe.  (What was the Recharge on Confront early on?  I seem to remember it being longer than the current 3s.)

 

Second, Stalkers now fill the role Captain Powerhouse described.  Which to me pushes Scrappers out of the center of the role.  Presumably in the direction of Brutes.  They do more AoE than Stalkers (as an AT), are a bit tougher and have (again, as an AT) superior aggro generation skills.  Which does seem to be in the direction of Brutes.

 

Third, the game plays nothing like it did at launch.  There used to be herding and waiting for the Tank to grab aggro before attacking.  Now it's much, MUCH, more of a free-for-all.  AoE damage has grown in power quite a bit as well.  So things die a lot faster.  Additionally, Blasters now all have a sustain power.  So squishies are tougher now.  (And, of course, Brutes have taken over the world making the average team even less squishy.)  These factors have lessened the value of aggro management, which in turn seems to have lessened the amount of effort Tankers and, particularly, Fury-craving Brutes spend on it.  As a result, I think there is more loose aggro in I26 than there was in I23 and therefore more call for Scrappers to handle some of it.  The coming explosion of Tankers on the field of play will very likely end that though.

 

I don't think there's any major problem with Scrappers as is.  Confront is probably the worst AT wide issue.  And making the defense sets different is good, IMO.  Having some that can tank and some that can't is perfectly fine.  Just as having some Defender sets that are AV/GM killers and some that aren't, or some that can heal and some that can't, is OK.  I think that sort of variation is good for the game, not bad.  Having some AT template that is applied strictly is too limiting.  The lack of flexibility was my biggest disappointment when I starting playing CoX, and the trend since then has been towards more.  I'd hate to see that trend reversed because it's simply easier to balance sets that differ only in trivial ways.  An AT-less Freeform like CO is probably too far in the other direction though.

Edited October 24, 2019 by csr
Grammar

[siolfir]

2 hours ago, Vanden said:

I think you're going to have to expand on this, because it sounds like you're saying that because there are some new sets with taunt auras, it means the whole AT's intended team function should shift.

Read the paragraph below the one you quoted. If there isn't a "tank AT", someone is going to end up filling the role. The person who should do it is the best capable person who is willing to do so. That hasn't changed since launch. What has changed, is what the "best capable person" is; taunt auras make it easier to hold aggro, but by themselves they don't make a good tank - especially not if your build can't handle the mobs you're going after. Which is squishier, a Tanker built with SOs or an IO'd Scrapper build to the softcap with capped resistances?

[csr]

3 hours ago, siolfir said:

I think that Scrappers get the taunt as part of the port, just because a lot of the proliferation decisions seemed to be based on the porting low-hanging fruit with the least amount of changes required.

I think it's more likely that the taunt being in Entropic (if it is) is because Entropic is a foe-scaling self-buff, like every other aura with a taunt on Scrappers.

[Haijinx]

36 minutes ago, macskull said:

Scrapper Invincibility = 17 second mag 3 taunt. Tanker RttC = 1.25 second mag 3 taunt.

Seems backwards

[macskull]

17 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Seems backwards

It's been identified since pretty much day one of the set existing that Willpower's taunt aura is bad. Invincibility is one of the better ones. Looking at the numbers from CoD it doesn't look like there's any difference in mag or duration between Scrappers, Tankers, and Brutes for those sets that have taunt auras. Punchvoke and new Gauntlet should mean that Tankers/Brutes will grab aggro more easily from a Scrapper though.

[csr]

1 hour ago, macskull said:

Scrappers also get the taunt component as part of the port. I've had at least two people quote me saying that it isn't shown ingame or in Mids and those people are correct - the ingame numbers and Mids often lack all the information about the power so you have to look in places like City of Data, which shows a 2.25s mag 3 taunt. This makes it one of the weaker taunt auras from any defensive set, but it is there.

I'd forgotten about Red Tomax.  Interestingly the tick rate of Entropic Aura is 2s, instead of the 1s of other taunt auras.  So it's actually worse than RttC.

[Haijinx]

12 minutes ago, csr said:

I'd forgotten about Red Tomax.  Interestingly the tick rate of Entropic Aura is 2s, instead of the 1s of other taunt auras.  So it's actually worse than RttC.

On Brutes its 13 seconds though

[Haijinx]

18 minutes ago, macskull said:

It's been identified since pretty much day one of the set existing that Willpower's taunt aura is bad. Invincibility is one of the better ones. Looking at the numbers from CoD it doesn't look like there's any difference in mag or duration between Scrappers, Tankers, and Brutes for those sets that have taunt auras. Punchvoke and new Gauntlet should mean that Tankers/Brutes will grab aggro more easily from a Scrapper though.

Seems like a weird call to make a scrapper aura much better than a tanker one from another set.

[csr]

5 minutes ago, macskull said:

Looking at the numbers from CoD it doesn't look like there's any difference in mag or duration between Scrappers, Tankers, and Brutes for those sets that have taunt auras.

I see one right off.  Entropic, 2.25s mag 3 on Scrappers, 13.6s mag 4 on Brutes.  Let's see... from CoD and done quickly (I apologize for any errors):

 

Set	Power	Tanker	Brute	Scrapper
Bio Armor	Evolving Armor	13.6s mag 4 / 0.5s	13.6s mag 4 / 0.5s	13.6s mag 3 / 0.5s
Dark Armor	Death Shroud	13.6s mag 4 / 2s	13.6s mag 4 / 2s	none
Electric Armor	Lightning Field	13.6s mag 4 / 2s	13.6s mag 4 / 2s	none
Energy Aura	Entropic Aura	N/A	13.6s mag 4 / 2s	2.25s mag 3 / 2s
Fiery Aura	Blazing Aura	13.6s mag 4 / 2s	13.6s mag 4 / 2s	none
Ice Armor	Chilling Embrace	13.6s mag 4 / 0.5s	N/A	none
Ice Armor	Icicles	13.6s mag 4 / 2s	N/A	none
Invulnerability	Invincibility	17s mag 4 / 1s	17s mag 4 / 1s	17s mag 3 / 1s
Radiation Armor	Beta Decay	13.6s mag 4 / 1s	13.6s mag 4 / 1s	13.6s mag 3 / 1s
Regeneration	Integration	N/A	13.6s mag 4 / 2s	none
Shield Defense	Against All Odds	17s mag 4 / 1s	17s mag 4 / 1s	17s mag 3 / 1s
Stone Armor	Mud Pots	13.6s mag 4 / 2s	13.6s mag 4 / 2s	N/A
Super Reflexes	Evasion	1s mag 4 / 0.5s	13.6s mag 4 / 2s	none
Willpower	Rise to the Challenge	1.25s mag 3 / 1s	1s mag 3 / 1s	1.25s mag 3 / 1s