Focused Feedback: Tank Updates for October 1st, 2019

[Captain Powerhouse]

Tanker Updates [Experimental Changes]

 

• Tanker Damage cap lowered to 5.0
• Brute Damage cap lowered to 7.0
• The Tanker Max End has been removed.
• Lowered Tanker's -Res and +Buff Damage modifiers.
• Fixed a bug introduced last patch where Melt Armor for Tankers and Brutes was doing more -res than intended.
• Fixed a bug introduced in a previous patch where Kinetic Attack had the T1 and T2 inverted, something that generated invalid characters.

 

Edited October 2, 2019 by Captain Powerhouse

[Rylas]

Thanks for the update! Couple of questions.

 

Why was the Brute damage cap lowered? And why was the 20 Endurance removed? Not that I'm complaining (yet 😉), but those things didn't seem to be issues in the last round of feedback so just wondering what the thought process was.

[Myrmidon]

And done!

 

I’m ready for the patch to live, thanks for all of the work, Captain.

[Demon Shell]

6 minutes ago, Rylas said:

And why was the 20 Endurance removed?

A few of us mentioned (quietly, under the screaming) that it was mitigating the value of endurance for Tankers as an AT. The only reason it didn't turn into an argument was... because no one argued.

 

Why it's being removed entirely instead of reduced from +20 to +10, I couldn't say with any certainty. Maybe internally the time-to-kill was measured such that it was no longer seen as offsetting anything.

36 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

• Lowered Tanker's -Res and +Buff Damage modifiers.

Do Tankers still have modified -To Hit values in their Epic Pools?

[Replacement]

Sad to see the endurance go. At the points of the game where endurance isn't functionally infinite, low-damage characters basically get dinged on their kill speed twice. 

 

But overall, I'm ok with this.

[Moka]

Also sad to see the endurance go, as well as the damage cap lowering, but thanks for the hard work, regardless, Cap.

Edited October 2, 2019 by Moka

[RobotLove]

Also curious about dropping the max endurance back down. That was one of the more intriguing changes to me. If it's solely related to the brute vs. tank conundrum, brutes have a way to bridge the gap in their version of conserve power from the energy mastery APP.

 

90% of the other... if you follow.

[Captain Powerhouse]

5 minutes ago, Demon Shell said:

A few of us mentioned (quietly, under the screaming) that it was mitigating the value of endurance for Tankers as an AT. The only reason it didn't turn into an argument was... because no one argued.

 

Why it's being removed entirely instead of reduced from +20 to +10, I couldn't say with any certainty. Maybe internally the time-to-kill was measured such that it was no longer seen as offsetting anything.

 

Tankers will still have disproportionate endurance issues in some encounters, but the increased caps and area ended up being good enough at giving the tanker a mean to kill many enemies more efficiently, closing the gap, at least while not trying to solo an AV or AV.

 

7 minutes ago, Demon Shell said:

Do Tankers still have modified -To Hit values in their Epic Pools?

They should.

[Vanden]

First the T1/T2 swap, now the extra endurance... All the changes I was most looking forward to are gone now. 😟

[Demon Shell]

1 minute ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Tankers will still have disproportionate endurance issues in some encounters, but the increased caps and area ended up being good enough at giving the tanker a mean to kill many enemies more efficiently, closing the gap, at least while not trying to solo an AV or AV.

That makes sense.

2 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

They should.

And they do. The bonus to -Dam on Darkest Night too. What I'm not sure of is why. With the boost to -Res removed this just results in a buff to Soul Mastery specifically (among Epic Pools).

 

The reduced -Res values can be seen in Arctic Breath and Melt Armor.

 

The modified Def/To-Hit Leadership values are also still there. Assault has been brought down to 15%, which is still higher than it was before.

[Leogunner]

I think the original AoE buffs would have been quite balanced with the current alterations.

[Major_Decoy]

I find this format for the chances slightly confusing. Could you please also list the changes as a comparison to live?

 

I'll admit, I was looking forward to the endurance changes more than the increased caps and area, so I'm disappointed by their removal.

[Vanden]

So why was the Brute damage cap lowered? I thought they weren't under the spotlight.

[siolfir]

Off the top of my head as a comparison to live (feel free to add/correct these, since I didn't look up everything in the other thread and/or log on to beta for the actual numbers):

Tankers

• Melee damage modifier: 0.80 -> 0.95
• Epic pool powers correctly using ranged damage modifier, which is now 0.8 (don't remember old value; it wasn't used until Sorcery, so buff to 1 power, lack of buff for epic ranged powers); melee set ranged powers (Hurl, Hurl Boulder, Focus, Impale, Focused Burst) continue to use the melee modifier.
• Damage cap: 400% -> 500% (same as most other damage ATs, +400% in enhancements/buffs)
• AoE geometry buffs as part of inherent (does not show for in-game information, doubled arc width or +60% radius for most AoEs - but not all)
• Target cap increases on melee powersets
• Better leadership buffs (don't have exact numbers, someone else fill in please?)
• Removal of Bruising effect from T1 secondary powers

 

Brutes

• Epic ranged powers correctly using ranged damage modifier, which is now 0.75 (IIRC it was 0.55? Again... it wasn't used until Sorcery, so it's a buff to 1 power, no change to any others); melee set ranged powers (Hurl, Hurl Boulder, Focus, Impale, Focused Burst) continue to use the melee modifier.
• Damage cap: 775% -> 700%

 

Personal opinion/feedback:

• I agree with the removal of the +20 endurance; the melee modifier increase no longer makes Tankers a "low damage" AT, so the reason for providing it was suspect.
• While the patch includes a "nerf" to Brutes, it's one that I think should have been done when Fury was reduced from +3% per point to +2% per point; this means that a Brute at max Fury (+200%, which is impossible to sustain for any length of time) will have the same buff capacity (+400%, taking the Brute to +600% total) as the other "damage AT" which get +400%.
• I hope that some of the worst T1 powers that were prompting the T1/T2 swaps (*coughJabcough*) get looked at in a separate pass for all of the ATs sharing the powersets.

 

Edited October 7, 2019 by siolfir
forgot about Bruising removal; corrected on ranged modifier usage

[metacore]

I assume the "Damage Cap Lowered to 5.0" means 500%.
I get that in terms of coding it may be written as 5.0 and not 500% but in the previous Topic it was written as % and all the CoH wiki websites use % (https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits😞

Archetype	Maximum Damage
Brute	775%
Blaster, Corruptor, Scrapper, Stalker	210% at level 1 500% at level 21+
all others	200% at level 1 400% at level 21+

[siolfir]

6 minutes ago, Vanden said:

So why was the Brute damage cap lowered? I thought they weren't under the spotlight.

If I had to guess, that magic 90% again.

.75 * 7 = 5.25

.95 * 5 = 4.75

4.75 / 5.25 = .905

 

Basically, "if Tankers aren't getting 550%, then Brutes aren't keeping 775%"; it also strictly puts Scrappers in the lead for base damage at the cap (5.625 without criticals). That said, it probably should have been done when Fury was changed years ago (see my earlier feedback).

Edited October 2, 2019 by siolfir

[Vanden]

7 minutes ago, siolfir said:

I hope that some of the worst T1 powers that were prompting the T1/T2 swaps (*coughJabcough*) get looked at in a separate pass for all of the ATs sharing the powersets.

I was really looking forward to the T1/T2 swap expressly because of Jab. I hate the animation (both of them), I wanted to be rid of it. Just buffing it wouldn't have made me happy...

Edited October 2, 2019 by Vanden

[siolfir]

3 minutes ago, Vanden said:

I was really looking forward to the T1/T2 swap expressly because of Jab. I hate the animation (both of them), I wanted to be rid of it. Just buffing it wouldn't have made me happy...

I guess the good news is that with Bruising gone (need to edit my post earlier to include that), there's no longer any conceivable reason to even include it in your tray? Silver lining? Yeah, didn't think so.

[WumpusRat]

15 minutes ago, Vanden said:

I was really looking forward to the T1/T2 swap expressly because of Jab. I hate the animation (both of them), I wanted to be rid of it. Just buffing it wouldn't have made me happy...

I don't mind the animation of it, but yeah, I was looking forward to it specifically to drop Jab off my SS tankers as well. It's just a garbage power in general, especially with bruising gone.

[Vanden]

Speaking of Super Strength, it's also pretty disappointing that it doesn't really get to benefit from the AoE size buffs. Hand Clap is bigger, but that doesn't help clear faster, and Foot Stomp's radius only went up 1 foot. It's not an AoE-heavy set like Titan Weapons, so there really doesn't seem to be a reason for it to miss out.

Edited October 2, 2019 by Vanden

[Captain Powerhouse]

Foot Stomp will hit 16 targets. That’s not nothing. And the reduction on radius makes global procs and PPM stronger.

Edited October 2, 2019 by Captain Powerhouse

[Lockdown]

2 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Tanker Updates [Experimental Changes]

 

• Tanker Damage cap lowered to 5.0
• Brute Damage cap lowered to 7.0
• The Tanker Max End has been removed.
• Lowered Tanker's -Res and +Buff Damage modifiers.
• Fixed a bug introduced last patch where Melt Armor for Tankers and Brutes was doing more -res than intended.
• Fixed a bug introduced in a previous patch where Kinetic Attack had the T1 and T2 inverted, something that generated invalid characters.

 

I disagree with lowering the tank and brute damage caps. This feasibly cripples them when Damage us related to taunt.  My argument is that tanks n brutes wont be able to pull aggro off death bunnies and damage bears. UNLESS you up the base aggro on tanks and brutes and on their damage... well we will see alot of team wipes.. 

 

Just my 2 cents.  Anyway keep up the hard work! 

[Snakebit]

Wut???

[Vanden]

10 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Foot Stomp will hit 16 targets. That’s not nothing. And the reduction on radius makes global procs and PPM stronger.

(Almost?) Every Tanker PBAoE is going to be able to hit 16 targets, though, in addition to getting significantly bigger. Foot Stomp's bigger AoE was one of the main selling points of Super Strength, that and Rage. Now, the only thing it really has over other sets, at least on Tankers, is Rage.

 

Edited October 2, 2019 by Vanden

[macskull]

So much for "not nerfing Brutes" I guess.