Focused Feedback: Tank Updates for October 1st, 2019

[Haijinx]

5 minutes ago, Replacement said:

You may not have noticed, but I broadly agree with your perspective.  Not on this.  

 

It frustrates me that when these patches drop, there are more people clogging up these feedback threads with emotional reactions than there are people logged onto the test environment.  I really don't want to encourage that.

 

There are obvious exceptions, when some fundamental part of the math doesn't line up (the infamous Arcanaville Claws incident), but generally speaking, I like the idea of encouraging testing before speaking.  If nothing else, it forces us to cool off.

This forums in general is fairly slow though, so its not really that many posts. 

[Infinitum]

11 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

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We're actually lucky the Brutes are tanks camp isn't arguing to keep live Tanker damage, and just nerf Brute damage for being too close to Scrappers. 

 

agreed, and the resistance caps also.

[Brutal Justice]

4 hours ago, Apparition said:

 

Brutes are actually better for tanking Hamidon with because of the Regeneration secondary, which Tankers don't have access to.

Nerf regen!

[siolfir]

3 hours ago, Haijinx said:

 

We're actually lucky the Brutes are tanks camp isn't arguing to keep live Tanker damage, and just nerf Brute damage for being too close to Scrappers. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Infinitum said:

agreed, and the resistance caps also.

 

Nah, those posts have cropped up occasionally.

[Haijinx]

12 minutes ago, siolfir said:

 

 

Nah, those posts have cropped up occasionally.

Those would more come from the Brutes are DPS side though, in that if there was a token reduction in the Brute resist cap to 85% then they somehow aren't a tank class.

 

The Brutes are tanks side would suggest something more along the lines of lower Brute damage by X, increase the base values in the Brutes secondaries to from 0.75 to 0.8

 

 

[Myrmidon]

14 hours ago, Mr.Sinister said:

Nerf regen!

Regen has had a hard time of it. Let them have their niche.😂

[Gobbledigook]

15 hours ago, siolfir said:

 

 

Nah, those posts have cropped up occasionally.

Avenues need to be explored 😛

[ivanhedgehog]

On 11/15/2019 at 7:37 PM, summers said:

I may not have made myself clear since you continue to make comparisons between Stalkers and Scrappers as defence for Brutes and Tanks. I'm not going to argue their closeness, as that seems to muddy the issue, but instead state my clear objective.

 

ATs should be different, and have their own clear identity. If they are not different, they should be made different. I will argue against (most) suggestions that converge ATs together, and I will give favourable consideration to (most) suggests that diverge them to acquire their own identity.

 

I hope this drops the Scrapper/Stalker discussion and gives you an idea about why I don't want Brutes and Tanks to be so increasingly similar. If we disagree on this, that's fine, but that is why I just don't want to see "Brute" and "Basically another Brute" in the AT selection screen.

you are right, brutes should have a lower resist/defense cap. that would make an obvious difference between them.

[Moka]

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone, this thread will never die.

[Myrmidon]

2 hours ago, Moka said:

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone, this thread will never die.

Oh, I’m certain that it dies the moment the patch hits Pineapple.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Myrmidon

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

Oh, I’m certain that it dies the moment the patch hits Pineapple.

To be replaced by the Nerf Tankers and Buff Brootz threads

 

[Infinitum]

21 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

you are right, brutes should have a lower resist/defense cap. that would make an obvious difference between them.

 

[ivanhedgehog]

3 hours ago, Infinitum said:

 

summer wanted the brutes to keep their dps role with higher dps than tanks, and wanted a clear delineation between the two. the best way is to make tanks better at tanking and brutes better at dps.

This is the simplest way of accomplishing that.

[Infinitum]

29 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

summer wanted the brutes to keep their dps role with higher dps than tanks, and wanted a clear delineation between the two. the best way is to make tanks better at tanking and brutes better at dps.

This is the simplest way of accomplishing that.

Not been following the thread I see.

 

1. Brutes will still have higher dps than tanks except on fringe weird cases.

 

2. Tanks already tank better than anything, these changes basically bring them in line with the format of the game increasing damage, radius and arcs, so they are more fun to play and less tedious to level.

 

Basically giving you a 2 AT tank class that accomplishes the same goal by different means.

 

Reducing brutes res caps will do nothing but turn them into sluggish Scrappers because their attacks are slower to build fury to a level - which still won't surpass scrapper damage even at max.

 

Reducing res caps to 80 will double the incoming damage making brutes that main tank like mine unusable at that point.

 

Reducing res caps will also eliminate a crap ton of set bonuses already chosen to hit a certain res level, and not to mention incarnate picks like resilient alpha and melee core - which if you are at vet level 100 how do you easily replace those at that point?

 

And then you have hybrid or defense based brutes that reducing the res cap won't affect at all so you in essence would push the entire player base to that segment because you would still have the same problem because there is no way to lower the defense soft cap without doing it across all Ats.  Then you have in essence nerfed the game out if existence.  Congratulations on that.

 

Finally, tanks bloom earlier than brutes, brutes take a choice and heavy investment to reach tank level survivability, tanks can do the same almost with common IOs on equivalent armor sets.

 

But in the end the proposed changes just gives the tanker AT the same choice to build for more damage or survivability, the same choice the brute has, because you can't have both and still excel.

[Infinitum]

45 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

summer wanted the brutes to keep their dps role with higher dps than tanks, and wanted a clear delineation between the two. the best way is to make tanks better at tanking and brutes better at dps.

This is the simplest way of accomplishing that.

Don't make me bring worf into this.

[Haijinx]

Basically if tanks herd groups so they have lots of targets they will do more points of damage when they hit their AOEs than Brutes .. Once they have enough +damage. (Or perhaps against tightly packed big groups like Council)

 

Brutes will do more at all other times.  Their AOEs will still hit harder just less targets.  Their ST will still be better.

 

Some sets like SS which can self buff a lot of +dmg will benefit Tankers more, due to the higher scale. 

 

 

 

 

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

summer wanted the brutes to keep their dps role with higher dps than tanks, and wanted a clear delineation between the two. the best way is to make tanks better at tanking and brutes better at dps.

This is the simplest way of accomplishing that.

Except .. why?

 

We have 2 melee DPS specialist ATs already..  Scrappers and Stalkers.  

 

Brutes are the higher damage side of Tank AT coin.   Tankers are the tougher side. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Golden Azrael]

5 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Basically if tanks herd groups so they have lots of targets they will do more points of damage when they hit their AOEs than Brutes .. Once they have enough +damage. (Or perhaps against tightly packed big groups like Council)

 

Brutes will do more at all other times.  Their AOEs will still hit harder just less targets.  Their ST will still be better.

 

Some sets like SS which can self buff a lot of +dmg will benefit Tankers more, due to the higher scale. 

 

 

 

 

You know.  I'd like to see a 'Might' damage aura like Invincibility's defence bonus for tanks.  Ie.  A damage bonus for each mob near you.  (A bit like the Assault incarnate thing.)

 

Tanks are slow and plodding.  So even if this were the case, if they were to 'grab an all you can eat aggro buffet' (TM) then they'd still take ages to clear said mob or 2 or 3 because Tanks are slow attackers. 

 

eg. Ice Melee.  It's dreadful.  The rubbish Ice Swords.  Take them out an you have a Frozen Fists, Frost, Freezing Touch and Ice Foot Stomp.  There's no real bit hitter or two in this.  So EVEN if Ice hit twice as hard?  It would still be very slow at clearing aggro'.  Tanks play like giant door stops.  Tough.  Tough is great.  But being able to affect the fight by 'Smashing the mob in the face' is what it doesn't seem to do as well.

 

Aside from an aggro' aura bonus?

 

I'd like to see a 'Might' press button.  ie.  BU converted into a 1 minute stage of, well, build up.

 

Do these two suggestions and watch tank uptake go down like barn storming.

 

Slow and Harder.  And an index linked damage bonus per mob to grind mobs down better.  A sustained 'burst' of damage for 1 min to 'punch a mob in the face to affect the fight.'  (They changes might even make Ice Melee respectable...seriously, ice melee needs work.)

 

Azrael.

 

PS.  I've set built an AoE Shields/SS Brute.  Sure.  It's an IO uber set build.  But.  When I play it?  It's a thing of wonder.  When I play this?  I think.  'This is what my tanks should be.'  Tough but also able to smash and pummel and be generally ruinous to any mob or two (c'mon...I'll take on two mobs of ya....) who gets in the way.

 

A big part of me feels the CoV surpassed the design limitations of the originals in many ways.  Why else would so many more people play Brutes than tanks?  You get 'most' of the toughness, most of the taunting, most of the hit points with damage that completely eclipses the design original.  Not just that, the fury building mechanism teases and toys with the coh brute player.  It's a compelling mechanism to get greater damage.  Damage is popular.

 

I'd privately argue that all ATs should have similar damage.  My answer would be 'how you get there' is the play differential.  ie.  Slow and hard as opposed to quick and light or burst vs dot damage.  Single target vs AoE target.

Edited November 30, 2019 by Golden Azrael

[Infinitum]

I prefer my Shield SJ tank over my psi Elec brute my rad Elec brute my TW Elec brute my energy Elec brute and my Scrappers too.

 

It's that fun.  Its the character I always wanted to play., and I rolled it just to make a cap America clone.  I got so much more than that.   lol

[Infinitum]

Yeah so I went elec armor crazy for a few months.  lol

[Myrmidon]

1 hour ago, Golden Azrael said:

PS.  I've set built an AoE Shields/SS Brute.  Sure.  It's an IO uber set build.  But.  When I play it?  It's a thing of wonder.  When I play this?  I think.  'This is what my tanks should be.'  Tough but also able to smash and pummel and be generally ruinous to any mob or two (c'mon...I'll take on two mobs of ya....) who gets in the way.

Then stick to Brutes. 

[Myrmidon]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

I prefer my Shield SJ tank over my psi Elec brute my rad Elec brute my TW Elec brute my energy Elec brute and my Scrappers too.

 

It's that fun.  Its the character I always wanted to play., and I rolled it just to make a cap America clone.  I got so much more than that.   lol

Mine is WP/StJ and I absolutely LOVE that Melee set. I’m going to hit 50 on that Tanker at the next Tanker Tuesday, then Incarnate up.

[Infinitum]

9 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

Mine is WP/StJ and I absolutely LOVE that Melee set. I’m going to hit 50 on that Tanker at the next Tanker Tuesday, then Incarnate up.

what time does that TT start?

[Myrmidon]

Tanker Tuesday always starts at 9pm EST.

[KelvinKole]

Admittedly, I've been away from the forums for a bit and am just catching up on a lot of these things. As I read through this thread, I can't help but ask myself: why even bother with this? What is the point in making two archetypes virtually interchangeable in the vast majority of content? That's what this seems to do. Tanks will have a slight dps lead in max target conditions, brutes will have a lead within smaller mobs, but the difference seems so small that in a team you won't feel/know there's a difference between having a Tanker or Brute in that roster spot. 

 

The direction taken here should have been to differentiate the two, creating unique value for each, not to just bring them closer in performance to each other.