New Difficulty Mechanic: Advanced Enemies

[FDR's Think Tank]

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

'Cause I'd rather have new enemy groups than the Council get another 6 NPCs added to it at 50. Also Arachnos. And Malta. And the Carnies. Etc. Etc. Etc.

 

All that effort could be put towards adding an evil Circus that has Lion Tamers and stuff. Or creating a group of superheroes including a 'Multiple Man' for Villains to beat up Redside.

 

I'd rather get new stuff from the ground up than revamp old stuff with a couple of new units.

 

On the otherhand, giving the existing Carnival some sort of Lion Tamer that occasionally spawns has to be easier than creating a whole NEW circus. Or, as was mentioned in a thread concerned about Villain Agency and Crimewaves, you could make sub-factions of each Gang. With a Sub-faction you have several advantages. First, you remove the unpredictable nature of the new units they have. Once players learn that say, the Carnival faction with Lion Tamers has a Mastermind Mob, they will adjust their tactics accordingly.

 

If you mesh this Advanced Enemies concept with an effort to give Villain's the free Agency they lack through Gang sub-faction reputation/reward missions, then you make it so all the coding that goes into this gets multiple purposes. Players would also find that the new advanced enemies ARE an option, since Heroes would only fight them by participating in "Crimewave Response" and Villains would only encounter them while participating in "Schemes" against opposing gang factions.

 

Other options for new units might involve giving "advanced units" powers or playstyles similar to what is used in PvP. On one hand it's incredibly annoying... on the other hand, if a larger part of the community is participating in countering/playing against these tactics, it might give some insight into what the best balance is/what is properly fun for both sides. So that would involve giving gangs units with KB, units with Psychic damage, etc.

 

The other possibility for Crimewave's is to integrate those older "Supadyne Raves", Arson/Burning Building Missions, and other city events more organically and widespread in tandem with related Gang Faction Crimewaves. Villain's can feel like they are affecting Paragon, Heroes can feel like they are standing up to Villains, and all the gangs can get more variety.

[Galaxy Brain]

Right, so the least intensive would be to update existing groups + add the varied boosts

[Steampunkette]

2 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Right, so the least intensive would be to update existing groups + add the varied boosts

The least intensive and greatest effort to result option would be the varied boosts.

 

Updating existing groups is -way- more work and wouldn't be needed or conducive towards increasing the difficulty while the boost pseudopets are being added.

 

At that point there's no reason to add the new NPCs to old groups except "I want it"

 

And I want more enemy groups instead of old group updates. More work than adding a few units to old groups, but more worthwhile, I think, since it also requires more content to make it work.

[Steampunkette]

13 minutes ago, FDR's Think Tank said:

 

On the otherhand, giving the existing Carnival some sort of Lion Tamer that occasionally spawns has to be easier than creating a whole NEW circus. Or, as was mentioned in a thread concerned about Villain Agency and Crimewaves, you could make sub-factions of each Gang. With a Sub-faction you have several advantages. First, you remove the unpredictable nature of the new units they have. Once players learn that say, the Carnival faction with Lion Tamers has a Mastermind Mob, they will adjust their tactics accordingly.

 

If you mesh this Advanced Enemies concept with an effort to give Villain's the free Agency they lack through Gang sub-faction reputation/reward missions, then you make it so all the coding that goes into this gets multiple purposes. Players would also find that the new advanced enemies ARE an option, since Heroes would only fight them by participating in "Crimewave Response" and Villains would only encounter them while participating in "Schemes" against opposing gang factions.

 

Other options for new units might involve giving "advanced units" powers or playstyles similar to what is used in PvP. On one hand it's incredibly annoying... on the other hand, if a larger part of the community is participating in countering/playing against these tactics, it might give some insight into what the best balance is/what is properly fun for both sides. So that would involve giving gangs units with KB, units with Psychic damage, etc.

 

The other possibility for Crimewave's is to integrate those older "Supadyne Raves", Arson/Burning Building Missions, and other city events more organically and widespread in tandem with related Gang Faction Crimewaves. Villain's can feel like they are affecting Paragon, Heroes can feel like they are standing up to Villains, and all the gangs can get more variety.

I'm not gonna get into the "Crimewave" or the "Subgroup" or any of the stuff touched on in the other thread. But I do wanna touch on one important thing:

 

The Carnival of Shadows is meant to play into Mardi Gras/Carnivale ideas, not Circuses. Yes, they have Strongmen. But the style/colors/characters are all about a Carnival and they play into Debutante Balls and it's all very French and very Louisiana. It's a very "Party" Vibe.

 

It's not a Circus, which is a whooooole other vibe. It's a -show-. It's clowns and barkers, lion tamers and sideshows. 

 

The Carnival is a Masked Ball in High Society. The Circus is a bunch of poor folks trying to make ends meet by biting the heads off chickens or taking pies to the face and being humiliated so people laugh.

 

Carnival Lion Tamers would be more Sigfried and Roy than Ringling Brothers.

 

 

[FDR's Think Tank]

3 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

I'm not gonna get into the "Crimewave" or the "Subgroup" or any of the stuff touched on in the other thread. But I do wanna touch on one important thing:

 

The Carnival of Shadows is meant to play into Mardi Gras/Carnivale ideas, not Circuses. Yes, they have Strongmen. But the style/colors/characters are all about a Carnival and they play into Debutante Balls and it's all very French and very Louisiana. It's a very "Party" Vibe.

 

It's not a Circus, which is a whooooole other vibe. It's a -show-. It's clowns and barkers, lion tamers and sideshows. 

 

The Carnival is a Masked Ball in High Society. The Circus is a bunch of poor folks trying to make ends meet by biting the heads off chickens or taking pies to the face and being humiliated so people laugh.

 

Carnival Lion Tamers would be more Sigfried and Roy than Ringling Brothers.

 

 

 

I take it you've never seen Cirque Du Soleil? They are a circus with a very upper end flair/appeal. Also, for Circuses being so low, Bruce Wayne never shied away from them. I think Circuses, in the modern sense, are an artifact of entertainment and easily have entered the niche interests of the Philanthropy Class. Heck, they should probably qualify for "Endowments of the Arts". They far outstrip the "Class" of the nonsense my local city shells out for people to dump literal garbage on the side of the road.

 

All the same: You could have an Unwashed Masses sub-faction of more Circus leaning Carnival members. Honestly, that internal gang struggle just writes itself. It's probably even more perfect than "Frozen Hellions". In the same note, you could have a very Vegas style Faction that focuses on Gambling, Sideshows, and Lounge Singers.... and you could have a Mardi Gras Faction that doubles down on the Louisiana style.

 

I think deep down, you want gang factions too!

[Galaxy Brain]

Updating old groups > Creating new groups in terms of investment IMO. The models, missions, and so on are already in game and have been run through already. Giving the existing content a face lift is more bang for your buck and would undoubtedly be "harder" than before. The issue seems to be that 10% harder is not enough (given that the speed bump would just be the few days it takes to adapt).

 

We have few options in terms of real difficulty here, and different people have different ideas of what that means. My idea would be needing to do frame-tight inputs on your keyboard/controller to do advanced techniques and power combos, or needing to actually dodge and block incoming attacks or else be put into hit stun. CoH ain't about that though. There's no advanced positioning or targeting or timing really needed in 99% of the game.
 

Scratch that, there are examples early on. Vhaz 'sploding zombies force you to think about your position when they are about to die. But still, that is circumvented by just beating them with a bigger stick so they don't blow up. Having different tests where you need to attack from X position, or approach / retreat from a target in certain ways would add complexity and difficulty, but that is way out of scope and the playerbase would explode.

 

Tweaking existing groups to have new powers that make players think about encounters / scout out the mob like they do for Malta Sappers or Freakshow Super Stunners (which also have the position component of run away after it dies) could do a lot if there are several combos to account for in any given encounter. If we're going by AI, I think there are some like with the Snipers or the Praetorian Clockwork that actually don't just dogpile players in melee range and prefer to run and shoot that could be implemented on different mobs that could make strats like taking taunt powers or even knockback powerful. 

 

On top of a setting to add in crazy super-boosts this would be a huge change to difficulty.

[Steampunkette]

Just now, FDR's Think Tank said:

 

I take it you've never seen Cirque Du Soleil? They are a circus with a very upper end flair/appeal. Also, for Circuses being so low, Bruce Wayne never shied away from them. I think Circuses, in the modern sense, are an artifact of entertainment and easily have entered the niche interests of the Philanthropy Class. Heck, they should probably qualify for "Endowments of the Arts". They far outstrip the "Class" of the nonsense my local city shells out for people to dump literal garbage on the side of the road.

 

All the same: You could have an Unwashed Masses sub-faction of more Circus leaning Carnival members. Honestly, that internal gang struggle just writes itself. It's probably even more perfect than "Frozen Hellions". In the same note, you could have a very Vegas style Faction that focuses on Gambling, Sideshows, and Lounge Singers.... and you could have a Mardi Gras Faction that doubles down on the Louisiana style.

 

I think deep down, you want gang factions too!

Yeah... I know about Cirque du Soleil. I'm not an idiot.

 

I also know that Tumblers, Jugglers, and Masked Entertainers have been a staple of high faluting parties since freaking ROMAN TIMES where the masks they wore would often symbolize specific gods whom they were either impersonating or insulting in a fun and ribbing sort of way with their antics.

 

More acrobats have died slamming into marble floors of Palaces than straw lay down on sand and soil, over the centuries.

 

But that doesn't change the VIBE. Nor does it change the kind of people within the Circus versus a Carnivale Atmosphere. 

 

And no. You couldn't have an 'Unwashed Masses' sub-faction of the Carnival of Shadows. The Carnival is masterminded by the psychic soul of Giovanna Scaldi tied to an exquisite carnival mask after she'd ruled Venice as a Duchess for years through psionic control.

 

She manipulated Vanessa Devore into surrounding herself with mind controlled rich and young beauties for endless debauchery and wealth, started sucking down souls, and is constantly on the lookout for other rich young women to bring into the fold. Like that is their MO. There's a high end Hero Tip Mission called "Elegant Party Favor" where you're explicitly rescuing Debutantes and Socialites who are being wooed into the Carnival. https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Mission:Tip_-_Elegant_Party_Favor Here's a link.

 

Vanessa Devore/Giovanna Scaldi don't recruit Riff-Raff Circus Folk. They don't get sideshow freaks or lion tamers or lions for that matter. They're aiming for wealthy and poised young men and women to have freaky sex with and expand their wealthy little empire with.

 

It doesn't write itself. It would require a massive retcon of what the Carnival of Shadows -is-.

[FDR's Think Tank]

2 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Yeah... I know about Cirque du Soleil. I'm not an idiot.

 

I also know that Tumblers, Jugglers, and Masked Entertainers have been a staple of high faluting parties since freaking ROMAN TIMES where the masks they wore would often symbolize specific gods whom they were either impersonating or insulting in a fun and ribbing sort of way with their antics.

 

More acrobats have died slamming into marble floors of Palaces than straw lay down on sand and soil, over the centuries.

 

But that doesn't change the VIBE. Nor does it change the kind of people within the Circus versus a Carnivale Atmosphere. 

 

And no. You couldn't have an 'Unwashed Masses' sub-faction of the Carnival of Shadows. The Carnival is masterminded by the psychic soul of Giovanna Scaldi tied to an exquisite carnival mask after she'd ruled Venice as a Duchess for years through psionic control.

 

She manipulated Vanessa Devore into surrounding herself with mind controlled rich and young beauties for endless debauchery and wealth, started sucking down souls, and is constantly on the lookout for other rich young women to bring into the fold. Like that is their MO. There's a high end Hero Tip Mission called "Elegant Party Favor" where you're explicitly rescuing Debutantes and Socialites who are being wooed into the Carnival. https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Mission:Tip_-_Elegant_Party_Favor Here's a link.

 

Vanessa Devore/Giovanna Scaldi don't recruit Riff-Raff Circus Folk. They don't get sideshow freaks or lion tamers or lions for that matter. They're aiming for wealthy and poised young men and women to have freaky sex with and expand their wealthy little empire with.

 

It doesn't write itself. It would require a massive retcon of what the Carnival of Shadows -is-.

I understand what you are saying, but from a story writing standpoint you've just shown why my point is viable. You have to stop thinking about everything in a static field. All those NPCs, even the criminals, have lives, thoughts. The founder of an organization rarely is able to control the entire organization and all splinter groups that form as a result. You could easily have former high level subordinates grow jaded with the specific goals of Vanessa Devore/Giovanna Scaldi... but their own Carnival Subordinates would still follow them, form their own inner circles. They would take the theme in their own direction..... While it would be a stretch to associate the Carnival of Shadows with Grocery Store Themed goons or murderous accountants... a circus theme and vegas sideshow theme are very easy to run with. Meanwhile, the Family could easily have murderous accountants, most Mafias do... 

 

Most real world Crimewaves are caused by Gang wars... and the most VICIOUS gang wars are usually internal conflicts or faceoffs between the main body and a splinter faction. I don't know the policy on discussing real world crime, so I won't cite examples, but I am not stretching the imagination too much here.

 

Most importantly, from a coding standpoint, you can reuse many of/all of the existing Carnival of Shadows Minions, making only  small changes to costumes/color sets or a small power set swap. And this same theory applies to every gang. It's much easier to write stories based on existing content than it is to fabricate new groups from whole cloth.

 

This isn't a retcon, because I am not saying you need to change the past. We are moving FOWARD.... and that means things change in the present. That doesn't mean the original Carnival of Shadows is gone, or even that the leadership at the top changes... these are massive organizations and they likely exist in MORE than just Paragon or the Rogue Isles.

[Steampunkette]

... The Carnival of Shadows literally runs through Mind Control and Soul Sucking. 

 

"The Carnival of Shadows exists principally to cater to the needs and desires of Vanessa DeVore and the spirit of Duchess Giovanna Scaldi. In return, Vanessa has built a decadent and insulated environment for her subjects, in which they may enjoy whatever pleasures they desire. All she asks in return is their absolute loyalty in the ongoing battle against her many enemies. Of course, since Vanessa dances through the minds of each and every one of her followers, they are always happy to do whatever it is she asks of them."

 

When you beat them up and they scream and fall and then drain your endurance? That's the power "Psychic Visage". It's literally Vanessa Devore pulling her mind-link out of their head and yanking it back to herself, stealing some of -your- endurance on the way.

 

The Mafia can have all the subgroups and splintergroups and backstabbing betrayals it wants 'cause the Boss doesn't have a psychic mindlink to every member of the group through their special psychic masks and literally suck out their souls if they betray him. Okay, for the mafia it'd probably be a tie or something. Cufflinks. The Watch you get when you've been a Goon for 30 years and are about to retire.

 

This would be a huge retcon.

 

It would be an absolutely massive narrative and tonal shift for the Carnival of Shadows to suddenly also have Lion Tamers and Sideshow Freaks, Clowns with Murderpies, and stuff like that. ESPECIALLY if it was an "Oh, we already had all that, we just didn't mention it before now because they're betraying us in a Gang War!"

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

Story wise, and mechanics wise, carnies are fine as is. Lion tamers and such could be a new group that could even be a copy cat of the carnies for all we know, and have fun missions where they are disgusted by the "Murder Circus".

 

As for dozens of other groups, yeah they could use some attention. 

[Steampunkette]

"The Circus Larcenous" would be pretty cool.

 

Bunch of thieves and acrobats, jugglers and low-grade supers and mutants who work together to put on a great show and then rob everyone blind.

 

Even better, they're not the Circus, but, like, a subgroup of thieves and stuff that use various Circuses as -cover- and then bail, leaving the Ringmaster to deal with the fallout.

[FDR's Think Tank]

Where you see a retcon, I see a plot device. People who are mind controlled don't always STAY mind controlled. Most do, but there are some minds that are naturally resistant. For instance, if she mind controlled a handsome rich young Aristocrat who turned out to have Dissociative Identity Disorder, she might have the dominant personality under her thumb, but either be unable to detect or largely unconcerned with the other Personality. If she's forcing them to degenerate or traumatic things, I think it's pretty clear that there are people who would end up damaged mentally. Sure, if they accept it, it's probably going to be pretty smooth, but do you think she's particularly compassionate about those who object? There is plenty of reasons why they wouldn't become heroes or pull away from the organization directly as well. Mind control works best on willing targets, whether it's through cold reading and con artistry or psychic domination. Everyone else is in for a bumpy ride. Even so, Sub-factions don't have to oppose the parent organization. Maybe they just oppose other sub-factions internally or splinter factions. Their absolute loyalty to the leader doesn't mean that there wouldn't be infighting or potential for friction. They are happy to serve her, not her other subordinates. For any Villainous leader, the benefits you get from pitting your subordinates against each other typically outweigh the downsides. If she has a follower who keeps ugly subordinates, she probably wouldn't waste much time sampling their thoughts, but she wouldn't turn down any people they brought her. If anything, keeping a sub-faction of unwashed masses who resent the rich is a great way to kidnap wealthy people... Obviously her character would rather not personally run or oversee that more ugly operation in much detail, regardless of her ability to access and process information.

 

Of course, if you just want the Carnival of Shadows ignored, I am sure they have plenty of gangs to work with if they decided to update them in a subfaction manner.

Edited October 25, 2019 by FDR's Think Tank

[Steampunkette]

I do not agree with your assessment of the Carnival of Shadows and I feel like the "Gang War" idea turning a portion of it into a Circus Clown Crime Organization would be a bad move, regardless of how you wind up justifying it.

 

The Carnival are Mardi Gras. Let them be Mardi Gras. If there's some kind of internal strife it should work in -that- sort of way. Not a way that changes the theme of the group.

 

Like the Skulls? If there's a Gang War or whatever Faction Flippery that happens, it should be centered around the Superadine. It should be some upstarts or rivals or old members who feel undervalued fighting over the drug itself. Over the territory and the sales and the money. Or maybe a pseudo-fascist ingroup-outgroup violence on the basis of their Death Cult mentality. A Hyperreligious Sect of Skulls who reject Superadine altogether and seek a Skulls gang organized centrally, if not exclusively, around thanatology.

 

So maybe the Carnival could split -that- way. Devore only put the mask on during the Rikti War so she could be a Hero, after all, maybe have a personality schism between Devore and Scaldi that births the Carnival of Twilight which is a bunch of Heroic Carnival characters. Still hedonistic. Still self-centered and mind-controlled and Mardi Gras, but a split of power and concept that plays with morality rather than theme because the leader -is- a morally dichotomous character wearing a full mask which plays into hidden intentions.

 

But Circus? Nooooo.

[Aberrant]

If you want a Carnival schism, best bet would be to set it between the Praetorian Carnival of Light and the Primal Carnival of Shadows since the Praetorians Carnies are now refugees on Primal Earth.

[Galaxy Brain]

Steering off of distinct new factions, we can always update existing units to make them more distinct or challenging, or even pulling a fambly and having low lvl enemies appear later again but souped up.

 

Like, imagine advanced Outcasts with crazy elemental powers.

[GM Sijin]

On 10/26/2019 at 12:58 PM, Galaxy Brain said:

Steering off of distinct new factions, we can always update existing units to make them more distinct or challenging, or even pulling a fambly and having low lvl enemies appear later again but souped up.

 

Like, imagine advanced Outcasts with crazy elemental powers.

This sort of thing doesn't fit terribly well into the narrative to be a significantly common occurrence. I could see a select few named Outcasts showing up souped up, but you'd almost need an entire arc (or AU/portal corps mission as was done for many groups) explaining why a street-level group is suddenly showing up way above their normal power level. I'm not really a fan of not explaining advanced enemies showing up outside their normal power level like that.

 

On top of other suggestions I wouldn't mind seeing something never/rarely seen in the rest of the game added. To borrow from something that's really common these days as an example, that was being added to the game more frequently near its closing: Telegraphed deadly attacks that are autohit and fall well outside the typical area/damage formula and AOE size limitations.

 

These attacks could be added to named/end of mission bosses. A couple easy examples:

• Large AOEs (circular PBAOEs, player-targetted AOEs, checkerboard style, inverse cones, etc.) that give players some time to react but are universally dangerous (ignore damage resistance or do flat % damage) that force some/all of the group to move.
• Fast firing forward facing cones that have some sort of mechanic to make them survivable for whoever is tanking while the rest of the group has to be pretty wary (even if they're tanky) that make tank vs group positioning matter. Basically forcing players to pay attention to something they normally don't have to.

 

I say this knowing full well that some of this may be difficult/impossible to implement due to engine limitations (non-standard shapes for telegraphs, faced cone telegraphs and special damage mechanics to name a few). And that there will be those who, for a variety of reasons, aren't a fan of this style of mechanic. I'm hoping to encourage people to think outside the typical CoH mechanics box. The more ideas we can come up with, the more likely we are to find that perfect storm of something that can be implemented that the devs would be excited to add. Whether as an 'advanced' difficulty mode or not.

[MetaVileTerror]

Your call to encourage people to think outside the typical City of Heroes' boxes (paraphrased) is exactly the sort of thing I was hoping to inspire.  Thank you, GM Sijin!

[MetaVileTerror]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv-KycvzHCA

[ChocolateMercenary]

On 10/24/2019 at 1:20 AM, Chance Jackson said:

I think incarnating existing groups just cheapens incarnacy

Eh, why should only the PCs get access to incarnate power? We all know that the Well doesn't care for good or evil, just ambition.

[Chance Jackson]

Something about "incarnate" minions through bosses(especially incarnate version of previously established mobs) just rubs me the wrong way "conservation of ninjutsu" works better for me here.

[Narfu12]

Honestly the Skulls and Hellions need a bit more love. Hellions only go to level 20 and thats only villains side. I'd understand that they are supposed to be low enemies but enemy groups like Council have their own level ones and it keeps going. What is stopping the Skulls and Hellions from getting better equipment and such? Like Hellions could have more access to lesser demons and bosses with better fire powers rather than just Damned and GF's from Hell. Minions could get a few Varieties that would fit their level same with Fallen. This idea could apply to Skulls as 'Death Walkers', 'Death Dolls', and then classic 'Bone Daddys'. While yes they have a few varieties I feel like they could be able to go higher. Like they supply the Trolls how come we can't see something like A Death head or a Gravedigger supplying the trolls with their fix.

[MetaVileTerror]

The Outcasts and the Trolls are what are keeping the Hellions and Skulls down, respectively.  Who, in turn, are suppressed by the Warriors and the Family each.
There is an unfinished story arc for the Skulls which implies that they're trying to breakfree from their dependence on the Family's trinkle-down economics by dealing up to the Trolls rather than getting the supply handed down to them.  I can only imagine the Family's response when the arc makes it to the level 20 to 30 range.  Additionally, the Hellions getting the "Girlfriends" could imply that they were trying to blaze their own path, independent of the magical trinkets which the Warriors were feeding them, but I'm not aware of any canonical material to infer that from.

[quixoteprog]

I have been doing several of the alignment missions lately and they seems to have a higher percentage of bosses in them than other missions. It might be neat to have a story arc full of missions where every mob was one level higher in difficulty. Same number of spawns but all minions were scaled up to LTs, LTs => bosses, bosses => Elite bosses, Elite bosses => AV. No minions at all.  Maybe give controllers and defenders something to do in a mission besides spam attacks.

 

 

[Yomo Kimyata]

Also, I think that (in most cases) there is a very minor difference between minions and lts, but then a huge step up to bosses.  Could we have a setting where lts maybe double their hp and damage?  Just a thought.

[Yomo Kimyata]

Also, please boost elite bosses, or add another tier between them and AVs.  There's a huge disparity between three shotting an elite boss and hammering on an AV for 15 minutes.