Sorry not sorry

[biostem]

9 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

Communicate all you like, but one person's communication can be another person's lecture they don't care to hear. 🙂 

If people want to pour over this kind of minutiae in the game, more power to them, but I just drop and go kill pixels.

You are missing the point;  Once you team up, it is no longer just about what YOU want to do or how you want to play.

[Solarverse]

57 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Demeanor is irrelevant.  You're telling them how you want them to play by your definition of what teamwork is and what is fun for you. 

The team, not just for me. So in that case I just don't feel bad about it, at all. Whatever we want to call what I am saying to them to me is just as irrelevant. You either work well with others or you do not. If you do not, then you are gone. Pretty cut and dry. (And when I say you, I do not mean you specifically.)

[Solarverse]

17 minutes ago, biostem said:

You are missing the point;  Once you team up, it is no longer just about what YOU want to do or how you want to play.

Exactly! When a player chooses to join a team, they subscribe to team etiquette. Nobody forced them to join the team...and regardless of how people want to justify their perspective on things, (Even a serial killer can justify their murders) they are the ones who will be removed from the team if they choose to play Rambo style. No amount of arguing their points of view will ever change this. I will not suffer chaos on any teams I put together just because a loose cannon feels that their needs outweigh their team's needs. When you join a team, it is no longer about you, it is about the team as a whole.

 

This next part is about this whole thread and things people have said throughout this thread.

 

Running free from the team and not sticking with the team will also get you kicked. You will be asked to stick with the team, and if you continue to stray from the team to do your own thing, you will be kicked...without warning. I do not threaten to kick anyone, I simply kick them after it becomes clear that they are not a team player. If the team is steamrolling too fast for you to pull off your Drain Psyche, then perhaps that team is running things on too low of a level.

 

Simply put, regardless of how you may feel about it, you are either a team player, or you are not a team player. People who are not team players by the standards of what the team is playing by, will simply be removed. I guess these people are accustomed to being kicked from teams, if this thread is any indication to past experience.

 

Final thought of the day: Play how you like solo, play how you like when YOU create the team...however, if you join somebody else's team, be prepared to get removed if the way you play, causes grief to the players of the team you chose to join. Nobody forced you to join a team. That was your choice. If somebody wants to attempt to get me banned just for asking you to play nice with others, then I kick you when you don't...all I can say is, good luck with that. You may find yourself disappointed when next you get on my team as I am playing an alt, and find yourself kicked yet again.

 

Stamp your feet, justify your play style, it won't make any difference to me, I'll still kick you. Sorry, but not Sorry.

[Gravitus]

31 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Exactly! When a player chooses to join a team, they subscribe to team etiquette. Nobody forced them to join the team...and regardless of how people want to justify their perspective on things, (Even a serial killer can justify their murders) they are the ones who will be removed from the team if they choose to play Rambo style. No amount of arguing their points of view will ever change this. I will not suffer chaos on any teams I put together just because a loose cannon feels that their needs outweigh their team's needs. When you join a team, it is no longer about you, it is about the team as a whole.

 

This next part is about this whole thread and things people have said throughout this thread.

 

Running free from the team and not sticking with the team will also get you kicked. You will be asked to stick with the team, and if you continue to stray from the team to do your own thing, you will be kicked...without warning. I do not threaten to kick anyone, I simply kick them after it becomes clear that they are not a team player. If the team is steamrolling too fast for you to pull off your Drain Psyche, then perhaps that team is running things on too low of a level.

 

Simply put, regardless of how you may feel about it, you are either a team player, or you are not a team player. People who are not team players by the standards of what the team is playing by, will simply be removed. I guess these people are accustomed to being kicked from teams, if this thread is any indication to past experience.

 

Final thought of the day: Play how you like solo, play how you like when YOU create the team...however, if you join somebody else's team, be prepared to get removed if the way you play, causes grief to the players of the team you chose to join. Nobody forced you to join a team. That was your choice. If somebody wants to attempt to get me banned just for asking you to play nice with others, then I kick you when you don't...all I can say is, good luck with that. You may find yourself disappointed when next you get on my team as I am playing an alt, and find yourself kicked yet again.

 

Stamp your feet, justify your play style, it won't make any difference to me, I'll still kick you. Sorry, but not Sorry.

Who defines team etiquette ? The team leader? A majority vote? A few people bitching? Seems to me team etiquette is something that’s largely subjective and yet you’re speaking like there are written rules.

 

Yes there are some blatant things that a person can do to grief the team (aggroing an AV early, purposely sabotaging badge collecting) but you’ll be hard pressed convincing any reasonable player that Group Fly or KB is a kickable offense Or one that severely hinders gameplay. Especially when one can be turned off if players aren’t ignorant.

 

In this OP scenario 2-3 people out of 24 were upset. Roughly 6 people told them to shut up and quit bitching. So based off that experience with this thread; it seems “team etiquette” isn’t leaning to your standards anyway.

 

Of course there is such a thing as team play vs solo play and obviously actions or lack of actions effect the team. But unless they are causing the team to actually fail you are indeed immature for kicking folks for anything less. 

 

 

[biostem]

8 minutes ago, Gravitus said:

you’ll be hard pressed convincing any reasonable player that Group Fly or KB is a kickable offense

Why do you keep strawmanning your opposition?  No one is suggesting kicking people merely for using group fly or knockbacks;  What is being suggested is that such powers, due to how they interact with enemies, AoEs, and your fellow team members, be used with care and consideration for said teammates.

 

 

[Gravitus]

15 minutes ago, biostem said:

Why do you keep strawmanning your opposition?  No one is suggesting kicking people merely for using group fly or knockbacks;  What is being suggested is that such powers, due to how they interact with enemies, AoEs, and your fellow team members, be used with care and consideration for said teammates.

 

 

It’s not straw-manning when Someone’s making broad statements like “conforming” to team play style and etiquette.” According to what I just read ; anything is fair game to get the boot if he/she doesn’t  like what you’re doing. Until they actually specify what actions are Kickable and not , I’ll take their statement at face value, especially when they’re commenting on a thread specifically talking about group fly and KB.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Gravitus

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, Gravitus said:

It’s not straw-manning when Someone’s making broad statements like “confirming  to team play style and etiquette.” According to what I just read ; anything is fair game to get the boot if he/she doesn’t  like what you’re doing. Until they actually specify what actions are Kickable and not , I’ll take the their statement at face value, especially when they’re commenting on a thread specifically talking about group fly and KB.

 

Let me use your own words to illustrate my point, (slightly edited, of course):

 

you’ll be hard pressed convincing any reasonable player that using chat or emotes is a bannable offense

 

So would you say that nothing anyone says in chat or does with emotes can get them banned, or is it possible that *certain* uses of the chat system or emotes *could* get someone banned?

 

Do you get it now?  It's not the blanket use of group fly or knockback that's the problem;  It's the use of said powers with no consideration for how they affect your teammates or those around you...

[Gravitus]

4 minutes ago, biostem said:

 

Let me use your own words to illustrate my point, (slightly edited, of course):

 

you’ll be hard pressed convincing any reasonable player that using chat or emotes is a bannable offense

 

So would you say that nothing anyone says in chat or does with emotes can get them banned, or is it possible that *certain* uses of the chat system or emotes *could* get someone banned?

 

Do you get it now?  It's not the blanket use of group fly or knockback that's the problem;  It's the use of said powers with no consideration for how they affect your teammates or those around you...

I’m actually not aware of any circumstance where KB or Group Fly is a kickable offense ever. I stand to be corrected but I’ve never seen these Powers make a team wipe/lose.

 

and sorry but context is king. The context of this thread has always been Group Fly with KB as a side discussion. So yes, when someone’s chiming in about kicking people for not conforming; it’s safe to assume this person has no qualms about kicking someone for the crime of “inconveniencing” another’s playstyle. GF and KB being no exceptions.
 

Until that person actually  Specifies what they deem kickable or not, I’ll take their blanket statement as a blanket statement. They are more than welcome to clarify.

[biostem]

Just now, Gravitus said:

I’m actually not aware of any circumstance where KB or Group Fly is a kickable offense ever.

I don't understand how you're not comprehending things at this point:  Group fly, KB, or group fly + KB were never the problem in and of themselves - It is a particular use of these powers that does not take into consideration how your teammates feel about their use, or how their use may negatively affect your team, that's the topic at hand.

[Gravitus]

23 minutes ago, biostem said:

I don't understand how you're not comprehending things at this point:  Group fly, KB, or group fly + KB were never the problem in and of themselves - It is a particular use of these powers that does not take into consideration how your teammates feel about their use, or how their use may negatively affect your team, that's the topic at hand.

Then please come up with a reasonable scenerio where you would deem these powers as a kickable offense .
 

so far the best case anyone’s been able to make is that KB can slow down map clearing. It’s already been established anyone negatively effected by GF is the fault of the person being negatively impacted.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Gravitus

[biostem]

7 minutes ago, Gravitus said:

Then please come up with a reasonable scenerio where you would deem these powers as a kickable offense

Easy:  You join a team, they have a discussion before starting any missions, and they agree to only knock enemies toward the tank or into walls/corners.  YOU choose not to heed this, and even after multiple requests to modify your behavior, you continue to go against what was agreed.  You are then kicked.

 

You see, you were not kicked for using knockbacks, you were kicked for agreeing to a certain set of behaviors/style of teamplay, yet chose to renege on that.

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Gravitus said:

Who defines team etiquette ? The team leader? A majority vote? A few people bitching? Seems to me team etiquette is something that’s largely subjective and yet you’re speaking like there are written rules.

If it is a team that I went through the trouble of creating, I define it. However, I use the same rules that most anyone else uses...it's called work with the team, not against it. Plain and simple. I'm not going to cast Black Hole on the mobs you are trying to knock back on your teams, so don't knock back mobs I am trying to keep tight on my teams. That works both ways.

Quote

you’ll be hard pressed convincing any reasonable player that Group Fly or KB is a kickable offense Or one that severely hinders gameplay. Especially when one can be turned off if players aren’t ignorant.
 

 

This is why biostem called this strawman tactics. I never said anything like that. You put words into my mouth, then you attacked the words that you put into my mouth instead of asking me questions about things that I actually did say. I'm sure you just read my post wrong, so I won't judge. I have been known to do the same thing a time or two.

 

My issue is not with the power or the effect it has, my issue is with how the player uses this power to negatively affect the team. If it goes against the grain of what the rest of the team is doing and a player won't stop...they are removed. That doesn't mean if they join my team with a power that knocks back that I'll kick them. That would be mean.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Solarverse

[Solarverse]

7 minutes ago, biostem said:

Easy:  You join a team, they have a discussion before starting any missions, and they agree to only knock enemies toward the tank or into walls/corners.  YOU choose not to heed this, and even after multiple requests to modify your behavior, you continue to go against what was agreed.  You are then kicked.

 

You see, you were not kicked for using knockbacks, you were kicked for agreeing to a certain set of behaviors/style of teamplay, yet chose to renege on that.

In all honesty, with me, there is no discussion at the beginning of the team. I won't be making a checklist of all the things I dislike, I would never get teams rolling if I did. The team etiquette goes way back, so much so that the knock back kings who have no care about how to use them in a team setting are far and few between. So I find it unnecessary to go through a list of rules for everyone to agree upon. However, if a player like this comes on the team, I will politely request the player use his knock back to the team's advantage, and I will detail how to do so. If that player insists to continue, or gives me flack about requesting...I simply hover my mouse over the kick function and off that player goes. No hard feelings. But yes, everything else you said is correct as far as I am personally concerned. Just didn't want it to sound like I make a check list and get signatures before I create my teams, lol.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

2 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Exactly! When a player chooses to join a team, they subscribe to team etiquette. Nobody forced them to join the team...and regardless of how people want to justify their perspective on things, (Even a serial killer can justify their murders) they are the ones who will be removed from the team if they choose to play Rambo style. No amount of arguing their points of view will ever change this. I will not suffer chaos on any teams I put together just because a loose cannon feels that their needs outweigh their team's needs. When you join a team, it is no longer about you, it is about the team as a whole.

 

This next part is about this whole thread and things people have said throughout this thread.

 

Running free from the team and not sticking with the team will also get you kicked. You will be asked to stick with the team, and if you continue to stray from the team to do your own thing, you will be kicked...without warning. I do not threaten to kick anyone, I simply kick them after it becomes clear that they are not a team player. If the team is steamrolling too fast for you to pull off your Drain Psyche, then perhaps that team is running things on too low of a level.

 

Simply put, regardless of how you may feel about it, you are either a team player, or you are not a team player. People who are not team players by the standards of what the team is playing by, will simply be removed. I guess these people are accustomed to being kicked from teams, if this thread is any indication to past experience.

 

Final thought of the day: Play how you like solo, play how you like when YOU create the team...however, if you join somebody else's team, be prepared to get removed if the way you play, causes grief to the players of the team you chose to join. Nobody forced you to join a team. That was your choice. If somebody wants to attempt to get me banned just for asking you to play nice with others, then I kick you when you don't...all I can say is, good luck with that. You may find yourself disappointed when next you get on my team as I am playing an alt, and find yourself kicked yet again.

 

Stamp your feet, justify your play style, it won't make any difference to me, I'll still kick you. Sorry, but not Sorry.

You really seem to not be willing to understand that at least on live and I assume here on HC the rules of conduct very much put anyone trying to tell another how to play their character very much in the wrong. Causing chaos as you and a few others put it is not in any way against the rules. We are completely allowed to use our characters abilities how we choose and it doesnt ever qualify as a rule violation. If you so much as say stick with the group you however have violated the rules of conduct as telling others how to play does equal harassment. If you boot someone on a tf because they wont follow your orders, they can very much report you for griefing, as you have denied them the end reward out of spite pure and simple

 

You seem to havea  very narrow idea of what a team player is. An actual team player does what they can to help the team, that is often in CoH due to the power some ATs can bring, be doing sections of the map solo at a speed a team of 8 needing to tank and spank simply cant. and Have you seen what a team all packing judgment can do? Even at +4X8 rooms get melted so fast overkill isa  very real thing and a wasteful use of DPS.

 

Understand I never join anothers team I havent done other then lead since around year 3 of Live when I took on the mantle of Ol Berk to embrace a full time role of in game mentor and teacher to young heroes aka newbs. Considering just on the HC forums I am frequently getting msgs to ask about build and play advice from new blasters its pretty clear to me I havent lost the knack.  Looka t your word usage the stamping feet comment rather shows your own dismissive attitude for those who dont agree with your position, based not on logic, not on meta data, but on emotion. Unless a group is all leveling pure SO builds, then the best way to utilize a team is to spread it out. Which is also far more in line with how heroes in the comics work. from the JLA to the Xmen its very rare that they are all together during an adventure. They spread out, they dont waste time by acting like cowards needing to hold each others hands.

 

There isa  very big difference between saying hey if you feel squishy stay close to me, and saying stay with me or Ill kick you, one is friendly advice, the other bullying and intimidation, both which are very much in violation of the rules of conduct.

[biostem]

39 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

You really seem to not be willing to understand that at least on live and I assume here on HC the rules of conduct very much put anyone trying to tell another how to play their character very much in the wrong. Causing chaos as you and a few others put it is not in any way against the rules.

If you are interpreting the rules so loosely as to include establishing some ground rules for team play as a violation of the rules of conduct, then "causing chaos" is just as much a breach.  You see, "telling you how to play" is not the same thing as "agreeing to abide by some ground rules established upon your acceptance of the team invite".

[Lost Ninja]

15 hours ago, Solarverse said:

This is because people are playing everything on +0 these days throughout the leveling process. People want to steamroll, even if it means crappy xp. Players have gotten spoiled as time has went by. I remember a time when nobody ran anything under +2. Now I have to write out a paragraph to my teams explaining why I roll +1 just to keep them from complaining about it before I even start a Task Force.

 

The game is only easy because players want it to be easy.

 

Just wanted to add that in there to go along with what you wrote.

My experience is the reverse of this, people frequently (more often than not) play at +4 then blame poor performance on people not knowing how to play. I think part of that is people levelling in AE farms expect all mobs to be red/purple and for only the "tank" to do any damage. I love it when you get on a team that adjusts the level down because we're dying too often to insane difficulty. After all dirt naps earn no XP.

[Leogunner]

1 hour ago, Lost Ninja said:

My experience is the reverse of this, people frequently (more often than not) play at +4 then blame poor performance on people not knowing how to play. I think part of that is people levelling in AE farms expect all mobs to be red/purple and for only the "tank" to do any damage. I love it when you get on a team that adjusts the level down because we're dying too often to insane difficulty. After all dirt naps earn no XP.

I'm kind of the opposite. I don't mind some struggle and some deaths every now and then because of mob difficulty but only limit to 1 wipe a map. Anything more and you're going to be in danger of players dropping team. If there's no struggle you can't use the full spectrum of a team's capabilities. Some players are apt at defending vulnerable allies who just rezzed, some use ingenuity to suppress foes or absorb alphas, some are great at swooping in and saving a player or group from eating dirt at the last seconds and yet a lot of players are good at capitalizing off momentum after rolling through the previous mob. I want to feel it all when I'm running a team. 

[Solarverse]

2 hours ago, Lost Ninja said:

My experience is the reverse of this, people frequently (more often than not) play at +4 then blame poor performance on people not knowing how to play. I think part of that is people levelling in AE farms expect all mobs to be red/purple and for only the "tank" to do any damage. I love it when you get on a team that adjusts the level down because we're dying too often to insane difficulty. After all dirt naps earn no XP.

I should have added, 'throughout the leveling process.' My experience of end game matches your own. 

[ShardWarrior]

11 hours ago, Solarverse said:

The team, not just for me. So in that case I just don't feel bad about it, at all. Whatever we want to call what I am saying to them to me is just as irrelevant. You either work well with others or you do not. If you do not, then you are gone. Pretty cut and dry. (And when I say you, I do not mean you specifically.)

Wow.  Glad I don't run into people like this during my playtime.  Honestly, this game is so easy I just don't see the need to dictate to others how they should "play nice with others".  My experience is people do this without any need for special instruction or coaxing from me.  Unless someone is truly being a dick and intentionally trying to grief people, then I would act.  Otherwise, play how you like and have fun.

[Solarverse]

6 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Wow.  Glad I don't run into people like this during my playtime.  Honestly, this game is so easy I just don't see the need to dictate to others how they should "play nice with others".  My experience is people do this without any need for special instruction or coaxing from me.  Unless someone is truly being a dick and intentionally trying to grief people, then I would act.  Otherwise, play how you like and have fun.

My experience is the same as yours. I don't sit around and lay down the law. I don't say anything unless I see the team struggling to get anything accomplished at a decent pace. If Knock Back is causing chaos and dragging things out, I will say something and make a request for a change. If that request is made with retaliation or is ignored, I kick that player. You make it sound much worse than it is. If you play Excelsior,  then chances are you have been on one of my teams. And let me say this, every single time I have had to kick a player off a team, I have been thanked, or people have thanked God, lol. I don't go around ruthlessly telling people how to play. I don't lead with an iron fist.

[ShardWarrior]

So long as they are not deliberately trying to be a jerk and grief people, I don't kick people from teams - knockback or not.  I try to keep in mind that others may play differently than me. 

[quixoteprog]

2 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Wow.  Glad I don't run into people like this during my playtime.  Honestly, this game is so easy I just don't see the need to dictate to others how they should "play nice with others".  My experience is people do this without any need for special instruction or coaxing from me.  Unless someone is truly being a dick and intentionally trying to grief people, then I would act.  Otherwise, play how you like and have fun.

I can agree with this about 80%. Soloing is pretty easy at +0 level, and even higher as you advance. And I've been on teams that steamroll content full of purples (to me at least) like it was nothing. Probably because the core group forming the team are well designed builds with lots of experience playing and a few chumps like me just fill in the chinks. That was easy.

 

However, I have been on teams that seemed like they were made by people who were clueless about how the game actually works. I assume these are usually kids, but probably not always.
 

Whatever the case, if you are on a team with people less than competent then it can be a bit challenging. I was in one group where the tank was saying most of his enhancements had "expired" which went a long way to explaining why he kept needing healing, which I was glad to do. But I actually LIKE that. If the people in question are willing to take even a bit of instruction on tactics then it can be really fun.

 

If they are bull headed and will not listen to any sort of reasonable and polite suggestions or instruction on how to play I usually beg off and leave. If they want to play that way they are welcome to, but I like a challenge not frustration. If I were leading such a team I would give them some suggestions, then some warnings then kick them. Because leading a team means you are at least partially responsible for EVERYONE having fun on the team.

 

A lot of that can be avoided if people just engage in some communication beforehand, as numerous people have pointed out. But that rarely ever happens. People seem to be in too much of a rush to get into the action. Which I kind of understand since my time in game is kind of limited and I want to optimize it myself. It is just that setting expectations will kind of do that I think. Which will hopefully be one of the results of the more positive posts present here.

[Solarverse]

30 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

So long as they are not deliberately trying to be a jerk and grief people, I don't kick people from teams - knockback or not.  I try to keep in mind that others may play differently than me. 

So wait, that is on your teams. Teams that you went through the trouble to create. Then you have every right to allow whatever you wish.

 

However, on my teams, teams that I take the time out to create, it is up to me. If MY team has a Tank, and he is skilled at getting mobs stacked on him so that AoE's can be used to maximize their potential, and then we pick up a player who consistently knocks mobs in every which direction, causing the NPCs to be scattered in every which direction, completely going against the grain of the rest of the team, then I have every right to make a polite request for that player to aim their knock back in a way that is beneficial to the team. If said player refuses or gives me flack over it, I have every right to remove that player. I am under zero obligation to "deal with it" or adjust the whole team's playstyle. No 9bligation whatsoever.

 

And I call straight up BS on anyone who says they can have me kicked or banned from the game over this. I seriously doubt that story ever happened.

 

Most players in this game are scared to death of that star that Grant's them lead of a team. So if they would rather sit around and wait for me to start one, then they are subject to play nice with others, or they are gone. And no, I am absolutely not sorry...not even a little bit.

[ShardWarrior]

Hey if you want to tell others how they should play and do what you want them to, more power to you.  I just don't find that necessary.  Let people enjoy the game how they want. 

[Solarverse]

32 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Hey if you want to tell others how they should play and do what you want them to, more power to you.  I just don't find that necessary.  Let people enjoy the game how they want. 

Good closing statement. I'll give you a like for that.