Anyone have an ill/kin build that has durability?

[foosbabaganoosh]

Hi there! My main is an ill/kin, and is currently slotted for perma-PA using one of the builds in this thread as a starting point and making minor tweaks: 

 

 

I was hoping someone out there would have a build that does something to make this powerset less squishy. Perma-PA wouldn't be a main priority just getting either defenses or resistance up high so I'm not getting obliterated when things hit the fan. I tried building one myself from scratch and I just do not have the gift when it comes to making builds from scratch for a specific purpose. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

 

[ambpup]

Here is my quick attempt, with PA being at 67 seconds with Siphon Speed going. No travel powers due to my belief that Ninja Run+Siphon Speed will get you around quick enough with a jet pack as backup.

 

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[foosbabaganoosh]

16 hours ago, ambpup said:

Here is my quick attempt, with PA being at 67 seconds with Siphon Speed going. No travel powers due to my belief that Ninja Run+Siphon Speed will get you around quick enough with a jet pack as backup.

 

Thank you for taking the time! Are these def/res values pretty good for a controller? Since I already have a good build designed for PA and is able to handle content solo/small teams, I wouldn't mind making sacrifices to really buff up my durability. On incarnate trials what with the crazy amount of enemies, I'm drawing aggro regardless of pets and really have trouble telling what's hurting me before I'm dead. Especially with hard hitting attacks I'm taking dirt naps a lot.

[Extor Prime]

You picked a sub-optimal primary/secondary combination. That's your biggest issue.

[flakoff]

4 hours ago, Extor Prime said:

You picked a sub-optimal primary/secondary combination. That's your biggest issue.

That's his main so it's irrelevant, you could have been positive and helped.

[Extor Prime]

6 hours ago, flakoff said:

That's his main so it's irrelevant, you could have been positive and helped.

Unfortunately it is relevant. This character will always suffer performance issues, even on teams. Here is why: the primary and secondary work against each other rather than together. Illusion favors being at range and flying. Kinetics favors being in PBAoE and on the ground.

 

/Kin's main mechanism is "steal from the enemy, give to the team"; and its preferred position in combat is PBAoE range, so in the middle of enemy spawn.

 

Illusion is very light on actual controls. Flash is a PBAoE hold, but the animation makes it bad. Other AoE "control" and main damage dealer is PA. PA cannot prevent the character from being hit by enemy PBAoE attacks, and while its taunt is strong, a character standing next to the decoys using /Kin powers can in fact steal the aggro from the decoys. Not good already; now add to that the fact that decoys cannot be buffed by /Kin's "steal from the enemy, give to the team" and things start looking really bleak.

 

Even a defense-capped controller is fairly sqiushy. You cannot cap both defenses and resistances through set bonuses alone, so even though you will get hit rarely, when you do get hit, it will hurt a lot. Generally it is easier to avoid damage being at range (and flying), but /Kin can't do that and remain effective. So it has to kill everything quicky before it becomes a threat.

 

The reason why Fire/Kin works is because it has several tools for AoE/PBAoE mitigation and damage, and imps are buffed by /Kin. It puts out a lot of damage quickly. Illusion can't do that. Decoys CAN be very damaging, but you have to debuff the enemy resistance for them to really shine. /Kin cannot do that.

 

So, to sum up. We have a relatively squishy character that needs to be in PBAoE range, that has one slow AoE hold for mitigation and actual control. Said character has a solid ST attack chain, but its AoE is produced by pets that are unbuffable (PA) and a permanent pet that is quite squishy in melee range (but needs to be close by in order to receive /Kin buffs). Solo, he will struggle. On teams, he'll be annoying because he'll need extra attention to be kept alive.

 

You can play any combo of primary/secondary, sure. But some just don't work very well. Even the gimpiest character can play at -1/1/0/0, but the weakness will show as soon as a proper challenge comes along. I myself would LOVE to play Ill/Kin, but it's just not a combination that will ever work well enough to carry its own weight.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Extor Prime

[oedipus_tex]

There are far less synergistic combos than Illusion/Kinetics out there. Kinetics is a set available on Defenders and Corruptors, who have very limited control powers, and they still manage to do okay. Illusion is in a better position than most of those sets to distract or occupy enemies.

 

The main drawback of Ill/Kin is the army can't benefit from Fulcrum Shift. But the Phantasm still can, as well as any Patron Pool Pets you happen to pick up.

 

I would concentrate on getting Ranged defense. Here's a basic recipe:

• 6 slot Coercive Persuasion in the Confuse power: +5 ranged def
• 6 slot Superior Will of the Controller in the AoE hold:  +5 ranged def
• 4 slot the single target hold with Basilisk's Gaze: +1.25% defense
• 6 slot Spectral Wounds with Thunderstrike: +1.25% for 3 slots, +2.5% for 6 slots
• Steadfast Protection proc in a resistance shield: +3%
• Gladiator's Armor proc in a resistance shield: +3%

 

That recipe is a pretty basic Controller formula for Controllers who get a Confusion power. It will provide 21 Ranged defense, which is a very healthy starting number. You can stack this with a combination of Hover, Combat Jumping, Maneuvers, and Weave. 

 

Illusion Controllers can cast Group Invisibility for an additional +1.8% defense. There is also Superior Invisibility, but it is an expensive. Maybe not a big deal for a Kinetics Controller though, because of Transfusion.

 

The soft cap is 45% and will make you very hard to kill. But just getting to 35% or so will often make a huge difference, especially if you are good at using inspirations.

 

[Meknomancer]

Random build thrown together in a couple minutes no idea if its what your after or any good to you

http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1474&c=683&a=1366&f=HEX&dc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

[Meknomancer]

or stick the numi set in transfusion to hit ranged cap too

[Extor Prime]

It's doable, of course. Still, going to be a much tougher life with this combo.

 

Too bad decoys aren't buffable.

[foosbabaganoosh]

7 hours ago, Extor Prime said:

So, to sum up. We have a relatively squishy character that needs to be in PBAoE range, that has one slow AoE hold for mitigation and actual control. Said character has a solid ST attack chain, but its AoE is produced by pets that are unbuffable (PA) and a permanent pet that is quite squishy in melee range (but needs to be close by in order to receive /Kin buffs). Solo, he will struggle. On teams, he'll be annoying because he'll need extra attention to be kept alive.

Your breakdown is pretty accurate, but comes off as a little exaggerated. Yeah I'm not gonna be soloing any +4/x8 incarnate content any time soon, but my character has been an absolute blast doing smaller scale solo missions, or when on any competent team as long as I play smart or just pay attention I can really make a difference. The most fun is getting ahead of the tank and hitting a dormant mob with confusion, often proc-ing contagious confusion which helps take aggro off the rest of the team (especially helps if tank isn't amazing or we just don't have one), and PA/spectral terror/phantasm also splits up the aggro quite a bit leaving my invisible self largely unnoticed unless I get sloppy with enemy AoE's. Also flash might be the only AoE hold, but people seem to sleep on how effective spectral terror is on holding down a mob.

 

Again I don't need to sell it, you make very valid and on-the-nose points, just saying the power combo is not as crap as people might think from your response, as long as you pay attention while playing. Kin is a huge game changer for team buffs and ill is great for adding extra targets to a fray. I was simply asking if people could guide me on how to amp resistance or defense so that I wouldn't get slapped and one-shotted by certain enemy attacks. Especially in incarnate content where there can be SO many enemies that you can't tell where attacks are coming from, a little more survivability is desired but won't ruin the game for me if I just need to stay on my toes for certain encounters.

Edited November 9, 2019 by foosbabaganoosh

[foosbabaganoosh]

5 hours ago, Meknomancer said:

Random build thrown together in a couple minutes no idea if its what your after or any good to you

http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1474&c=683&a=1366&f=HEX&dc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

See HOW are people like you so good at this? I literally spend an hour messing with a build and at the end my totals aren't even half of what you just did "throwing this together". This build looks extremely desirable what with those totals, and it looks like you kept perma-PA as well assuming siphon speed is utilized. Hats off to you, I envy your abilities and thank you for your work!

[oedipus_tex]

That's an excellent build for one so quickly put together.

 

I know you built it quickly, but just so OP knows, I'd not put the 4 slots in Boxing. The power isn't great and you don't need the extra Smash/Lethal defense. Reactive Armor in Tough can also be scaled back.

 

I'd drop Super Jump and replace with Flash, then move all the extra slots opened up by the above suggestion to there, possibly with 4 slotted Basilisk's Gaze and 1 slotted Lockdown: Chance for Hold, which has a big chance of firing in this power and Holding bosses.

 

Great build overall though for such a quick design.

 

 

[Extor Prime]

20 hours ago, foosbabaganoosh said:

Your breakdown is pretty accurate, but comes off as a little exaggerated. Yeah I'm not gonna be soloing any +4/x8 incarnate content any time soon, but my character has been an absolute blast doing smaller scale solo missions, or when on any competent team as long as I play smart or just pay attention I can really make a difference. The most fun is getting ahead of the tank and hitting a dormant mob with confusion, often proc-ing contagious confusion which helps take aggro off the rest of the team (especially helps if tank isn't amazing or we just don't have one), and PA/spectral terror/phantasm also splits up the aggro quite a bit leaving my invisible self largely unnoticed unless I get sloppy with enemy AoE's. Also flash might be the only AoE hold, but people seem to sleep on how effective spectral terror is on holding down a mob.

 

Again I don't need to sell it, you make very valid and on-the-nose points, just saying the power combo is not as crap as people might think from your response, as long as you pay attention while playing. Kin is a huge game changer for team buffs and ill is great for adding extra targets to a fray. I was simply asking if people could guide me on how to amp resistance or defense so that I wouldn't get slapped and one-shotted by certain enemy attacks. Especially in incarnate content where there can be SO many enemies that you can't tell where attacks are coming from, a little more survivability is desired but won't ruin the game for me if I just need to stay on my toes for certain encounters.

Yeah... Guilty as charged I suppose, I measure everything by a very specific yardstick, that being my optimized-within-an-inch-of-his-life main. Which often leads to fun factor or purely visual appeal falling by the wayside. 

[Steelspur]

On 11/9/2019 at 9:31 AM, Extor Prime said:

Unfortunately it is relevant. This character will always suffer performance issues, even on teams. Here is why: the primary and secondary work against each other rather than together. Illusion favors being at range and flying. Kinetics favors being in PBAoE and on the ground.

 

/Kin's main mechanism is "steal from the enemy, give to the team"; and its preferred position in combat is PBAoE range, so in the middle of enemy spawn.

 

Illusion is very light on actual controls. Flash is a PBAoE hold, but the animation makes it bad. Other AoE "control" and main damage dealer is PA. PA cannot prevent the character from being hit by enemy PBAoE attacks, and while its taunt is strong, a character standing next to the decoys using /Kin powers can in fact steal the aggro from the decoys. Not good already; now add to that the fact that decoys cannot be buffed by /Kin's "steal from the enemy, give to the team" and things start looking really bleak.

 

Even a defense-capped controller is fairly sqiushy. You cannot cap both defenses and resistances through set bonuses alone, so even though you will get hit rarely, when you do get hit, it will hurt a lot. Generally it is easier to avoid damage being at range (and flying), but /Kin can't do that and remain effective. So it has to kill everything quicky before it becomes a threat.

 

The reason why Fire/Kin works is because it has several tools for AoE/PBAoE mitigation and damage, and imps are buffed by /Kin. It puts out a lot of damage quickly. Illusion can't do that. Decoys CAN be very damaging, but you have to debuff the enemy resistance for them to really shine. /Kin cannot do that.

 

So, to sum up. We have a relatively squishy character that needs to be in PBAoE range, that has one slow AoE hold for mitigation and actual control. Said character has a solid ST attack chain, but its AoE is produced by pets that are unbuffable (PA) and a permanent pet that is quite squishy in melee range (but needs to be close by in order to receive /Kin buffs). Solo, he will struggle. On teams, he'll be annoying because he'll need extra attention to be kept alive.

 

You can play any combo of primary/secondary, sure. But some just don't work very well. Even the gimpiest character can play at -1/1/0/0, but the weakness will show as soon as a proper challenge comes along. I myself would LOVE to play Ill/Kin, but it's just not a combination that will ever work well enough to carry its own weight.

I know this thread is old but I just can't help myself. This is for anyone, like me, who finds this post late while looking for something else or exactly this. Sounds to me like you just have a skill issue. I have an Ill/Kin troller who solos +4/X8 w/AVs, to include incarnate content, and it is not even my MAIN toon. You just don't understand how to use/slot the primary/secondary sets and/or choose/slot power pools to fill the gaps. I have Perma PA and perma Spectral Terror. Spectral Terror, properly slotted, is amazing crowd control, which my tanks comment on frequently. However, they do complain about the noise.  Deceive, properly slotted, is awesome for alternating with Blind to CC mobs missed by Flash. Now before you cry "but you don't get exp from mobs killed by deceived mobs", if you are not able to kill mobs quickly enough it is not an issue with the power, again, that is an issue with skill. When mobs are Blind, Feared, or better, fighting for you, they are not attacking you, so being in PBAoE range means nothing for the BRIEF moment I have to be there. Since Phantasm does KB, KB to KD is essential to keeping the mobs from being scattered. With SB and ID (Kin), and Spirit Ward and Enflame (Sorcery) on my Phantasm, FS enables him to mow down mobs pretty well while I keep the CCs up and Transfusion going. I have no problem getting my Phantasm in range of FS and Transfusion with my play style. I just move so fast that he is IN the mob before he knows it. I am able to put teams in God Mode with endless END, amazing RECH, and Perma Fulcrum Shift. FS is regularly X2 with my build so we are always >/= Dmg Cap. And I am always able to make Ill/Kin "carry its own weight". I even take up the slack lesser skilled team mates that show up on PUGs sometimes. Just b/c some power set combos may require more thought and skill does not make them inferior to ones that we may start our kids out playing with b/c they are easier to learn and use.

[Steelspur]

On 11/9/2019 at 3:32 PM, Extor Prime said:

It's doable, of course. Still, going to be a much tougher life with this combo.

 

Too bad decoys aren't buffable.

Too bad intelligence is not buffable. And REALLY too bad that Spectral Terror can't fear jerks.

Edited July 28, 2023 by Steelspur

[honoroit]

i will save the day, here's a illu / dark (you'll be better than illu kin)!

 

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by honoroit

[Esorono]

This be necromanced from three years ago. That being said with this being up and seen again, I do at least want to dispel one thing.

The decoys will take a snapshot of your damage and apply them to the decoys for their duration when summoned. I found this out today while flopping around helplessly looking for interesting /Kins to make. You can make it work rather well with some otherwise useless procs like Unspeakable Terror in Spectral Terror and Energy Manipulator in Ball Lightning to proc containment more reliably. Then toss in Achilles/Annihilation into Corrosive Vial, and finally Fury of The Gladiator into Cross Punch. You can build this rather glassy as the Decoys will taunt too. In theory it could work, but I haven't really built anything I am proud of yet.

[Psiphon]

15 hours ago, Esorono said:

This be necromanced from three years ago. That being said with this being up and seen again, I do at least want to dispel one thing.

The decoys will take a snapshot of your damage and apply them to the decoys for their duration when summoned. I found this out today while flopping around helplessly looking for interesting /Kins to make. You can make it work rather well with some otherwise useless procs like Unspeakable Terror in Spectral Terror and Energy Manipulator in Ball Lightning to proc containment more reliably. Then toss in Achilles/Annihilation into Corrosive Vial, and finally Fury of The Gladiator into Cross Punch. You can build this rather glassy as the Decoys will taunt too. In theory it could work, but I haven't really built anything I am proud of yet.

Hi, can you please explain what you mean?
I read that as, the decoys will do the same damage as yourself at the time of casting them. So if you use fulcrum shift and are at your damage cap, the decoys will take a snapshot and apply the same to themselves until they expire.

I assume that I’ve misunderstood you here or else I’d have heard of this sooner.

[Esorono]

3 hours ago, Psiphon said:

Hi, can you please explain what you mean?
I read that as, the decoys will do the same damage as yourself at the time of casting them. So if you use fulcrum shift and are at your damage cap, the decoys will take a snapshot and apply the same to themselves until they expire.

I assume that I’ve misunderstood you here or else I’d have heard of this sooner.

Yep, that is what that tag means, most pseudo-pets like Phantom Army copy your damage and imprint them onto the entity for their duration, so if you Fulcrum Shift then cast them, they will have that boost as well. It's a useful way to get untargetable and invulnerable pets to get buffed.

[foosbabaganoosh]

On 7/28/2023 at 2:17 PM, Steelspur said:

I have an Ill/Kin troller who solos +4/X8 w/AVs, to include incarnate content, and it is not even my MAIN toon. 

 

For this do you just operate with locking down mobs adequately so they aren't able to attack, or have you built your toon out to be specifically hardy in a way? One thing with my troller is that occasionally I'll get clapped by a heavy attack and faceplant. Even with a good team, some content just has so many enemies that you'll have a non-zero amount of aggro that draws enough attacks to get through my defense/minimal resistance.

[Frosticus]

On 7/29/2023 at 12:45 PM, Esorono said:

Yep, that is what that tag means, most pseudo-pets like Phantom Army copy your damage and imprint them onto the entity for their duration, so if you Fulcrum Shift then cast them, they will have that boost as well. It's a useful way to get untargetable and invulnerable pets to get buffed.

 I can't think of any psuedo pet that works like that. The ones that copy over player buffs will have them drop the same time they drop on the player. I won't say definitively that none work the way you suggest, but I can't think of any. 

 

It definitely isn't how PA works

 

The only way to buff PA's damage directly (as in other than by weakening the enemy) is through slotting (alpha counts toward slotting), having them buff themselves via soulbound chance for buildup, or by having hybrid assault (core/radial) active before you cast them as they will inherit the mechanics of that hybrid and either buff themselves via core, or proc the doublehit energy proc via radial. PA will also trigger whatever interface you have making you frequently saturate both the damage proc and the debuff of something like reactive radial.

 

 

[Carnifax]

5 hours ago, Frosticus said:

 I can't think of any psuedo pet that works like that. The ones that copy over player buffs will have them drop the same time they drop on the player. I won't say definitively that none work the way you suggest, but I can't think of any. 

 

It definitely isn't how PA works

 

The only way to buff PA's damage directly (as in other than by weakening the enemy) is through slotting (alpha counts toward slotting), having them buff themselves via soulbound chance for buildup, or by having hybrid assault (core/radial) active before you cast them as they will inherit the mechanics of that hybrid and either buff themselves via core, or proc the doublehit energy proc via radial. PA will also trigger whatever interface you have making you frequently saturate both the damage proc and the debuff of something like reactive radial.

 

 

This is my understanding as well, anything tagged to receive Player Buffs also inherit the duration of the buff (otherwise combos like Aim with the Chance for Buildup Proc and Rains would be borked). 

 

Pretty sure the Use Caster Mods tag on CoD tells you what entity powers will inherit your buffs (RoF vs PA indicates RoF will gain the buffs and PAs won't). 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/entity.html?entity=pets_rainoffire

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/entity.html?entity=pets_decoy

 

Possibly "Use Combat Mods" : true is why PAs can benefit from their own Soulbound procs. 

 

Edit : Interestingly Trip Mine seems to be flagged NOT to inherit Caster Buffs. Must test that with a bunch of reds. 

Edit edit : And done, yep, trip mine doesn't inherit Damage Buffs from reds just as CoD indicates. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Carnifax

[Panache]

On 7/29/2023 at 3:45 PM, Esorono said:

Yep, that is what that tag means, most pseudo-pets like Phantom Army copy your damage and imprint them onto the entity for their duration, so if you Fulcrum Shift then cast them, they will have that boost as well. It's a useful way to get untargetable and invulnerable pets to get buffed.

This is 100% inaccurate.