recharge Recharge Guide

[Bopper]

24 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

For the layman, simply knowing "how many Force Feedback procs are needed" to make up any shortfall in having enough recharge to accomplish a perma effect is the useful number that even laymen can grasp

My fear is that perhaps formulas are what's complicating the matter. Algebra isn't for everyone. I remember the first time I saw letters in a math problem and thought,  "WTH?". Not much I can do if that's the case. I did examples first with only numbers in hopes that it would be clear to the layman.

 

The iterative additive process is a good way for first understanding how recharge works, which is why I started with it. My hope is that for anyone who takes the time to work through the text, the formulas, and the examples will see that there is a MUCH faster and easier way to solve the problem than to iterate. That's where Chapter 3 comes in. But if folks can't make it through the first 2 chapters without feeling lost, then they'll miss on that.

 

I think perhaps I should treat this as the older study groups I ran in college. I should let folks come to me with questions and I can provide a step by step solution using these techniques. Perhaps having a problem someone cares about would make it easier to understand.

 

 

[DoctorDitko]

Many folks are math-phobic, and the sight of the sigma sends them running. 

 

Also, humans are story-loving critters, so adding a narrative to your guide might be able to overcome knee-jerk innumeracy.

 

In any event, thanks for all your work!

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, DoctorDitko said:

Also, humans are story-loving critters, so adding a narrative to your guide might be able to overcome knee-jerk innumeracy.

I think you're correct and I'm working on a rewrite. I also notice that I am using terms inconsistent with other sources. For example, when I say recharge, I really mean recharge rate. So that is my mistake as I'm sure it will confuse some. Maybe in a couple weeks I'll have a new version posted.

[Redlynne]

On 11/18/2019 at 4:54 PM, Bopper said:

I'm an electrical engineer working for the Air Force and NASA

This is the part I'm still trying to get past ... 😅

[Bopper]

15 hours ago, Redlynne said:

This is the part I'm still trying to get past ... 😅

Yup, been a tester for almost 12 years now. It's funny, I started playing this game when I was an intern, now I'm a seasoned journeyman. Time flies.

[Redlynne]

By the way @Bopper ... just between you, me and the Homecoming Forums here ... I've lately been wondering about something that's somewhat tangentially related to this purpose of this guide.  Specifically, being able to compute the required minimum global recharge needed to close the gap(s if any) in a given attack chain sequence.  Basic idea is basically this:

 

If you have a repeatable attack chain sequence of 1-2-3-4 ... you will only need as much total recharge (enhancements, incarnate, set bonuses, power effects, etc.) as the following:

Power 1 needs to recharge in the time it takes to animate powers 2, 3 and 4.

Power 2 needs to recharge in the time it takes to animate powers 1, 3 and 4.

Power 3 needs to recharge in the time it takes to animate powers 1, 2 and 4.

Power 4 needs to recharge in the time it takes to animate powers 1, 2 and 3.

 

So you basically wind up with something akin to this:

1 - 2 - 3 - 4

1 - 2 - 3 - 4

1 - 2 - 3 - 4

1 - 2 - 3 - 4

 

So long as each power can recharge within the time it takes the OTHER powers in the chain to animate, you can "close the gap(s)" on having a continuous attack chain and any additional recharge bonus beyond that is unnecessary/wasted.  The thing is, it starts getting ... complicated ... when you wind up with what amount to nested sub-groupings within those sequences, such as a 1-2-1-3-4 kind of arrangement where you need to pad out the attack chain duration (for insert reason here) and you can recharge power 1 within the time it takes to animate power 2 (for example) so you can do a 1-2-1 sequence before having a dead space "gap" between attacks which then gets filled by use of powers 3 and/or 4.

 

The reason I've started to notice this kind of ... resonance frequency ... for use of powers has a lot to do with playing my Kheldians and the kinds of shenanigans I can get up to by exploiting the ability to use the T1 Human power while in Nova form (you just need to use the T1 Human power on a $Target before switching to Nova form).  This then enables the use of BOTH the T1 AND T2 Human form powers while in Nova form, which then enables some really wacky attack chain sequences in Nova form that I hadn't been anticipating.

 

2H - 2N - 1N - 1H ... repeat.  Powers all recharge in time for continuous use with zero recharge enhancement.

2H - 1N - 2N - 1N ... repeat.  Powers all recharge in time for continuous use with zero recharge enhancement.

2H - 1H - 2N - 1H ... repeat.  Powers all recharge in time for continuous use with zero recharge enhancement.

1H - 1N ... repeat.  Powers both recharge in time for continuous use with zero recharge enhancement.

 

Now, obviously, the mental calculus on the demand for recharge is dramatically different for long recharge powers like Eclipse or Light Form or Hasten and the like ... but I'm finding it rather interesting that for those most part, most repeating attack chains I can come up with seem to work really well with these kinds of bare bones "no recharge required" styled sequencing of attacks in the chain so as to "shape" it in a way that doesn't need a whole lot of recharge to be able to rotate on through indefinitely (endurance cost permitting).  Being able to determine the "recharge required" thresholds for being able to continuously repeat a particular sequencing of attack powers when put together (quantity of powers and their ordering in the sequence matter greatly for this!) can then help inform decisions about how much recharge to "pile on" onto a build.

 

Powers like Hasten, Domination and so on create their own somewhat obvious "perma" capability demands for recharge while can then (re)shape an entire build plan to cater to that demand for global recharge enhancement (obviously).  But I'm finding it increasingly curious that there ARE ways to solve the kind of problem I've outlined here so as to be able to determine just how "much" recharge a build "needs" in order to be able to attack continuously with no downtime ... and THAT I figure is going to be yet another one of those things that only math geeks (and people who think WAY TO MUCH about their builds and build strategies) will either care about or be inclined to make use of.  Still, there are so many things where knowing one thing then enables you to know something else that you weren't expecting to discover (or care about).

 

So, just as an aside ... I'm looking into trying to figure out ways to ... codify is too strong a word ... hmmm.  Perhaps I should call it "regularize" an approach to figuring out how much a build "needs" in recharge reduction in order to avoid downtime while attacking with a pre-determined attack chain that will synergize best with your resources and investment into any given character.

 

Why?

Because we don't have to jump blindly into thinking that no matter what MOAR IS MORE BETTERUH in every circumstance under all conditions ... and THAT is what pushes the frontiers of thinking about these kinds of things.

 

Anyway ... digression over.

[Bopper]

24 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Specifically, being able to compute the required minimum global recharge needed to close the gap(s if any) in a given attack chain sequence

It's funny, this was actually the first thing I programmed up when I came back to the game. I made an excel spreadsheet that allowed me to make an attack chain, and it would calculate the required recharge of each attack...and if necessary it calculated a gap (it also did other things like calculate expected damage from procs and produced a DPS value). So yes, it's in my wheel house, I'd just have to clean it up if I were to share it (basically I would need to tweak things I did manually that would need to be done automatically instead).

 

24 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Kheldians

I have never played them, so I am unfamiliar with the shenanigans you speak of. But if you have an exact chain in mind, I can calculate what you need. I'll just need to know all the steps involved, for instance, is there a cast time to changing forms? 

Edited November 23, 2019 by Bopper

[Redlynne]

8 hours ago, Bopper said:

I have never played them, so I am unfamiliar with the shenanigans you speak of. But if you have an exact chain in mind, I can calculate what you need. I'll just need to know all the steps involved, for instance, is there a cast time to changing forms? 

It's not so much an exact chain I've got in mind so much as one that I've discovered/evolved to while playing my Peacebringer and Warshade in the lower levels (6-19 specifically when you can have Nova form but don't have Dwarf form yet).  You basically wind up using the Nova form as a hover blaster, since basically the only thing you can do is attack attack attack attack with it (and you get +Damage and +ToHit bonuses while in Nova form).  That then pushes you into a direction of wanting to use an attack chain that cycles continuously with no gaps in it.

 

The shenanigans I'm talking about is basically THIS ...

 

Changing forms (Human, Nova, Dwarf) is functionally "instant" on Homecoming because the explode-y/shake the screen animations for the form changes don't happen here on Homecoming when you toggle on Nova and Dwarf forms.  This means you can shift forms with "no" delay to executing a power after shifting forms (theoretically) ... but in practice there often is a delay due to the manual dexterity of the Player and how ... complicated ... your bind control setup is, since if you're invoking different bindloadfiles for different forms there can be a potential network latency desync to getting new control schemes loaded on the fly (which animations for form changing made room for by imposing a delay before other powers could be used when switching to Nova or Dwarf forms).  I myself use a keybind control scheme I developed (through much trial, error and cussing at the screen) that is an "all-in-one" bindloadfile that does not need to be swapped out every time I change forms, so I can use a single bindloadfile set of keybinds to command all three forms with their different powers without needing to reload keybinds for each form.

 

However, as mentioned above, I've already found multiple single target attack chains for use in Nova form that "work" just fine with absolutely no recharge enhancement whatsoever (I'm still using Common 15 IOs and haven't gotten high enough to start slotting in Level 27 Set IOs yet) ... and that is the discovery that I was wanting to share, since it is something which is broadly applicable beyond just merely Kheldians (it's just that Kheldians get "enough attacks" early enough at Level 6 for this to become readily apparent in the early going).  I'm sure there are other powerset combinations that can benefit from this application of recharge reduction analysis so as to set overall target goals for an entire build to determine how much "headroom" a build has to invest in set bonuses other than recharge reduction without compromising how a build "plays" through its attack rotations.

 

 

 

Note that such information would also be useful for what are often considered the "ideal" attack power rotations when chasing max DPS output for a build.  I'm thinking specifically of the Martial Arts powerset for Scrappers/Stalkers/Brutes/Tanks where the conventional wisdom is that your highest DPA and DPS attacks are a chain of Storm Kick, then either Cobra Strike or Crane Kick (same damage and animation time so they're interchangeable for this), then Crippling Axe Kick when attacking a single target.  The question then becomes a matter of how much recharge is needed (from all sources) in each of the powers in order to sustain that attack chain indefinitely without pauses (assuming an infinite supply of endurance, of course).  It's a matter of taking the recharge information for "solo" powers and learning how to apply it in a "group" context for attack chains that are meant to be repeated endlessly (or until blue bar runs out or $Targets all faceplant and it's time to go find more).  That's taking recharge reduction from the single use case and taking it up another notch into the multi-use case ... and figuring out what sequencing of attack chains result from that based on the supply/demand for recharge reduction in a "multi-body problem" kind of way.  It's basically taking knowledge of recharge reduction "to the next level" for a broader view in the context of the holistic entirety of a completed build.

 

The motivation for doing that, of course, is that if you can get away with using only 3 attack powers instead of 4 in a rotation then you'll only need to (presumably) 6 slot 3 powers instead of 4, which will save you 5 slots and 1 power pick on investment in the build.  Of course, with the way these things play out when you Exemplar, that may not ALWAYS be operative at lower levels ... but that's the basic idea and impetus/motivation behind wanting to be able to know this kind of info, and being able to compute it with a reasonable set of tools/guidelines for how to think about the problem and "do the math" that inevitably results.

[Bopper]

2 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Snip

The math for calculating the recharge time required is simple enough. You must add up the arcanatime of all the powers used between the given power and the last time it was used, that becomes your target Recharge time. Then you simply calculate the amount of recharge rate enhancement you need to achieve that target Recharge time.

RechargeRateReq = BaseRecharge / sum(arcanatime from in between powers)

 

Let's say your attack chain is 1-2-3-4 (repeat), and you want to know the amount of recharge required in 1 to keep the attack chain gapless, then we add the arcanatime of 2, 3, and 4 (AT2+AT3+AT4) then divide that into the base recharge of 1 (BR1). So we solve

 

RechargeRateReq = BR1 / (AT2+AT3+AT4).

 

You do this for each power in the chain. It will get tricky if your chain can't achieve gapless, as you will have to calculate those gaps and incorporate them into your numbers. 

 

If you give me a specific chain, I'll solve it and post it as an example solution in the guide. But don't give me a chain from Kheldians as I won't have their power info (City of Data only has human form). Unless you give me the base recharge and cart time of each pet, of course. 

Edited November 23, 2019 by Bopper

[nihilii]

On 11/22/2019 at 2:10 AM, DoctorDitko said:

Many folks are math-phobic, and the sight of the sigma sends them running. 

 

Also, humans are story-loving critters, so adding a narrative to your guide might be able to overcome knee-jerk innumeracy.

 

In any event, thanks for all your work!

I'm not even math-phobic, but incidentally the sight of the sigma does send me running.

All this recharge stuff? I know it already, I know how to calculate the exact amounts of recharge I need, but I'll be damned if I can parse the formulas ITT without staring at them for minutes and working them out on paper.

And that's not to criticize Bopper's work at all (great stuff!). Mostly personal reflection, and agreement with your post. I wish I knew what it is about mathematical notation that is so impenetrable to many of us and so obvious to others. It's especially weird when computer code doing the exact same math feels easier to read.

[Bopper]

5 hours ago, nihilii said:

It's especially weird when computer code doing the exact same math feels easier to read.

I know it might not be the point you're trying to make with that statement, but would you like it if I provided code that does some of the math? I can show basic for-loops to iterate through the summation process (the sigmas). 

[nihilii]

44 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I know it might not be the point you're trying to make with that statement, but would you like it if I provided code that does some of the math? I can show basic for-loops to iterate through the summation process (the sigmas). 

I wouldn't want you to go through the trouble without knowing if the sentiment is shared by anyone beyond me, but that's a fun thought!

[Bopper]

10 hours ago, nihilii said:

I wouldn't want you to go through the trouble without knowing if the sentiment is shared by anyone beyond me, but that's a fun thought!

Here is some MATLAB code to show Example 3.2 from the guide. I chose this example to highlight the need to re-check your work just in case a temporary boost actually acts as a permanent boost. Everything in green are comments in the code.

 

Spoiler

%% Provide Inputs %%
%Base Recharge of Hasten
BaseRecharge = 450;

 

%Permanent Boosts: Base, Enhanced, 4xLotG, other Global, Quickness
P = [100, 95, 7.5, 7.5, 7.5, 7.5, 55, 20]/100; % 1 x 8 array

 

%Temporary Boosts: Hasten, Destiny
T = [70, 40, 10, 10, 10]/100; % 1 x 5 array

 

%Duration of Temporary Boosts
Dur = [120, 10, 30, 60, 120]; % 1 x 5 array

 

%% Fix our variables for ease of analysis %%
%Sort the durations from shortest to longest, and save the original indices for T
[Dur, Idx] = sort(Dur, 'ascend');  % Dur = [10, 30, 60, 120, 120]; Idx = [2, 3, 4, 1, 5]

 

%Sort the Temporary boosts to match the sorted durations.
T = T(Idx); % T = [40, 10, 10, 120, 10];

M = length(T);  % M = 5, the number of Temporary boosts
Ptot = sum(P); % Ptot = 3, the total Permanent boost equals 300%
RedoFlag = 1; % This is a flag that checks to see if we need to re-run the analysis

 

while RedoFlag  % If we're doing our 1st attempt at analysis or redoing the analysis, run the loop
    TimeRecharge = BaseRecharge; %Starting point
    for mm = 1:M     %Loop through each Temporary boost
        TimeRecharge = TimeRecharge - T(mm)*Dur(mm); %Deduct the mm-th temporary boost
    end
    TimeRecharge = TimeRecharge/Ptot; % Divide by the total Permanent boost
    
    if any(TimeRecharge < Dur) % If TimeRecharge is less than any temporary boost duration ...
        Ptot = Ptot + T(M); %Make last temporary boost a permanent boost (this is why we sorted Dur)
        T(M) = []; % Remove last temporary boost
        Dur(M) = []; % Remove last temporary duration
        M = M - 1; %Deduct the number of total temporary boosts by 1
        RedoFlag = 1; %Set the RedoFlag to reanalyze the data        
    else
        RedoFlag = 0; %No need to redo analysis, end the while loop
    end
end
display(TimeRecharge)

 

 

[Zolgar]

On 11/25/2019 at 3:06 AM, nihilii said:

I'm not even math-phobic, but incidentally the sight of the sigma does send me running.

All this recharge stuff? I know it already, I know how to calculate the exact amounts of recharge I need, but I'll be damned if I can parse the formulas ITT without staring at them for minutes and working them out on paper.

And that's not to criticize Bopper's work at all (great stuff!). Mostly personal reflection, and agreement with your post. I wish I knew what it is about mathematical notation that is so impenetrable to many of us and so obvious to others. It's especially weird when computer code doing the exact same math feels easier to read.

Fun fact:

 

I don't understand a word of Bopper's maths. I still know how recharge works and calculated out how much recharge you need to do (thing).

 

Further I calculated how much of an effect variable and intermittent recharge values will earn you.

 

Explained it all in terms an uneducated buffoon like me can understand, too. >.> 

[Bopper]

7 hours ago, Zolgar said:

Fun fact:

 

I don't understand a word of Bopper's maths. I still know how recharge works and calculated out how much recharge you need to do (thing).

 

Further I calculated how much of an effect variable and intermittent recharge values will earn you.

 

Explained it all in terms an uneducated buffoon like me can understand, too. >.> 

Don't undersell yourself, you understand the math well. Also you have a good guide. It just struggled with handling multiple temp buffs. I believe you stated something like "the more buffs you add, the harder it is to even remotely accurately pin down". It's true, it gets harder, but my formulas show you can get it dead on balls accurate (it's an industry term...and I may have watched My Cousin Vinny recently) and my formulas show you can get away from doing it iteratively and just calculate it directly.

 

This is why I started with examples that showed all the calculations before I showed any formulas. Much like how you showed your steps to your work. 

 

P.S. welcome back. I hadn't seen you post in awhile. I'm glad we didn't lose you from the community. 

[arcanaville]

Apologies for being very late to this party, but I just wanted to mention that the idea of calculating recharge using what Redlynne called a "points" system and Bopper highlights in his OP was the basis for the recharge guide I posted on the old forums, which itself was an update from an older guide written by another player who's name escapes me at the moment.  The metaphor of recharge being about reaching a total score rather than being about reaching a total time, and recharge bonuses increasing your rate of points rather than decreasing your deadline time is a good one that most people seemed to get better than the algebra, and also is almost certainly how recharge actually works in the game as well (it is how I would implement it: with pure linear addition rather than any division with round off errors).

 

The super simple explanation we used to use was basically this: if a power took 450 seconds to recharge, assume that the power needed to gain 450 points to fully recharge, and assume the power gets one point per second.  Then assume all recharge buffs boost that by exactly the bonus amount for as long as the buffs last.  So if you're under +200% recharge, then every second you earn 3 points (1 + 200% more).  Most people can then work out on paper with very simple math how long it takes for a power to recharge, or conversely how much recharge it would take - *roughly* - for the power to be perma.

 

One more thing: technically a power like Hasten with 120 seconds of duration and 450 seconds of base recharge takes more than 375% total recharge to become perma, because you have to factor in the activation time of the power (it is even more complicated than that, but that's a different rabbithole involving power activation delays).  To a first order approximation, for Hasten to be perma it has to recharge in less than 119 seconds, so that there's enough time to activate it again before it expires.  And that requires 378% recharge.

 

This is a small correction factor for a power like Hasten with long duration relative to cast time.  But when you get into things like attack chains, as mentioned above, where cast time and cycle time are much closer, this is something that changes the math by more than a small amount.

[Redlynne]

1 hour ago, arcanaville said:

Apologies for being very late to this party

WE'RE NOT WORTHY!

WE'RE NOT WORTHY!

WE'RE NOT WORTHY!

 

 

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, arcanaville said:

which itself was an update from an older guide written by another player who's name escapes me at the moment. 

Was it DrMike, by chance?

 

1 hour ago, arcanaville said:

The metaphor of recharge being about reaching a total score rather than being about reaching a total time

Personally, I see it as two time domains, somewhat like how a speedster experiences time. I think about the X-Men (Days of Future's Past?) scene where QuickSilver is in a kitchen and he zooms through defeating the enemies. The scene is shot in respect to how QuickSilver experiences time, and everything around him looks like it moves in slow motion.

 

This is how I see the Cooldown Time Domain experiences time, and it always requires the same Base Recharge time to fully recharge a power. However, the Real World time (as experienced by the other characters in that scene) happens much faster.

 

Anyways, time domains, points, algebra, it doesnt matter; the math works, and hopefully people can understand the math using one of those techniques.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Bopper

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, arcanaville said:

One more thing: technically a power like Hasten with 120 seconds of duration and 450 seconds of base recharge takes more than 375% total recharge to become perma, because you have to factor in the activation time of the power (it is even more complicated than that, but that's a different rabbithole involving power activation delays)

This is all true, and I suppose I should incorporate it into the guide. However at times it feels like I'm a teacher in a classroom full of students who get stuck on a certain problem and I'm afraid to add more complexities to that problem before they can solve the first one.

 

When I'm more motivated, I will revisit this.

[arcanaville]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

This is all true, and I suppose I should incorporate it into the guide. However at times it feels like I'm a teacher in a classroom full of students who get stuck on a certain problem and I'm afraid to add more complexities to that problem before they can solve the first one.

 

When I'm more motivated, I will revisit this.

Well, this is something you have to work your way up to.  One day you're writing a guide to SR, and the next you're writing an entire guide to how tohit mechanics work and then you completely lose your mind and decide to compare scrapper secondaries by comparing average calculations to a hundred million iterations of a combat mechanics simulator and then pretty soon you're being credited with inventing your own measure of time.  You have to learn to walk first, so you can stroll your way to the warp drive controls.

[Redlynne]

Cute.  Cuddly.

 

 

 

 

Comes with warp drive ...

[Bopper]

26 minutes ago, arcanaville said:

Well, this is something you have to work your way up to.  One day you're writing a guide to SR, and the next you're writing an entire guide to how tohit mechanics work and then you completely lose your mind and decide to compare scrapper secondaries by comparing average calculations to a hundred million iterations of a combat mechanics simulator and then pretty soon you're being credited with inventing your own measure of time.  You have to learn to walk first, so you can stroll your way to the warp drive controls.

I absolutely empathize with you on this. One day you're merely doing tests to try to confirm an unconfirmed/misunderstood game mechanic, then the next you're reading source code and excel files leading to new discoveries to share. It escalates quickly.

 

I do appreciate your work, Arcanaville. Thanks for your contributions.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Bopper

[Bill Z Bubba]

9 hours ago, arcanaville said:

Well, this is something you have to work your way up to.  One day you're writing a guide to SR, and the next you're writing an entire guide to how tohit mechanics work and then you completely lose your mind and decide to compare scrapper secondaries by comparing average calculations to a hundred million iterations of a combat mechanics simulator and then pretty soon you're being credited with inventing your own measure of time.  You have to learn to walk first, so you can stroll your way to the warp drive controls.

I always rather enjoyed watching you lose your mind.

[arcanaville]

16 hours ago, Bopper said:

I absolutely empathize with you on this. One day you're merely doing tests to try to confirm an unconfirmed/misunderstood game mechanic, then the next you're reading source code and excel files leading to new discoveries to share. It escalates quickly.

 

I do appreciate your work, Arcanaville. Thanks for your contributions.

I didn't have the benefit of source code back in the day.  I had to resort to less ... straight forward methods.

 

Discovery and sharing has to be its own reward.  Because you can't farm merits with forum posts.  Unfortunately.

[arcanaville]

6 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I always rather enjoyed watching you lose your mind.

Well, the scrapper forums were one of the few places on Earth where math was a spectator sport.