pvp only accolades

[Kimuji]

Just now, justicebeliever said:

It’s true that it’s 6 of one and half dozen of the other.  I don’t know that it’s curious, since it is the same either way.  I’d rather get a buff than have something suppressed, so it makes since to frame it the way they did.  Does it really matter and is it worth the further debate it could

produce?

Yes I think it was worth mentioning, it can potentially shed light on certain motivations.

And another question never found an answer: how is it going to make pvp more appealing? Is it the kind of tweak that could potentially attract more players to pvp? I mean where are we getting these new players from? Not out of thin air but from the pve crowd. And there's already a pve way to get these accolades.

I don't see how a stats buff given to everyone is going to acheive that since it's not going to change the experience at all (no one or everyone -> exact same result). What is the problem with accolades and PVP currently? The pvp players who also go through the pve process to get the accolades have an advantage over those who don't want to go through this? I'm sorry but I can hardly understand how it is unfair.

[macskull]

29 minutes ago, Kimuji said:

What I find funny is that no one seems interested in the much simpler solution: disable accolades bonuses for PVP. It acheives the exact same result as giving a free buff to everyone, it's just as fair and balanced. No one getting the bonus is strictly the same as everyone getting it. But it's almost like getting the accolades benefits more easily is more important than achieving balance. Curious...

Getting the accolade benefits more easily is achieving balance. I'll agree that removing the accolade bonuses would also achieve balance but that's balance via nerf instead of balance via buff and PvPers almost always get the former instead of the latter. Let me explain general PvP build philosophy to you, in the hopes you'll understand why your suggestion is not a good one. In a PvP build you build for capped HP first, 41 or more points of KB protection if you're not melee, 60-90% recharge, and usually 50%-ish range bonus. Those aren't hard and fast rules, but they're pretty consistent across most ranged AT builds. There are already some powerset combinations that would probably be good in a PvP environment but aren't usable because you can't make a build that meets those requirements without gimping yourself. Additionally, PvP has diminishing returns on set bonuses and buffs - but hit points are the one thing that doesn't. In order for my character to be effective either in solo or team PvP, I need to stay alive long enough to do my job (debuff, heal, buff, damage, etc) and with the current iteration of PvP hit points are the single most important factor in whether I'm able to do that. Building for the HP cap alone is tricky on some ATs and if I don't get that extra 20% from accolades I'm either having to make serious build sacrifices in other areas (i.e. I'm less survivable) or I just don't have as much HP as I should (i.e. I'm less survivable).

 

Making a good PvP build is tricky enough the way things are.

26 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

I'd be very interested, but I am already stridently opposed to most PvP ideas that might step on PvE's toes, that I'm willing to give ground on the version that also offers a zone-wide buff of equivalent effect.

 

... which is a large part of why I'm so stridently opposed to this idea in specific.

See above.

17 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

A sense of satisfaction.

 

...

 

I collect currency.  Foreign, old, unusual.  I don't get anything from most of it, except the pleasure of having them.

 

For example, I have a paper bank note, over eighty years old, with a face value of 500,000.

 

That's 500,000 Reichsmarks, issed in Austria in 1938 or 1939.  It literally isn't even worth the paper it's printed on, except to a fellow collector.  But, I can say "I have a paper bank note with a face value of half a million", and I can also say "I have a relic of the Nazi regime".

 

I also have almost two dozen roman coins, minted between 500BCE and 500CE.  They're tiny little specks of bronze.  All twenty of them cost some thirty or forty dollars on Amazon.com - they were found in a hoard that had over a hundred thousand of the things, IIRC.  They're not even worth the weight of the metal in them ... and being bronze, not pure copper, and truly MINISCULE ... even that isn't worth much.  But, I get to pick one up, and hold something almost two thousand years old in my hand.

 

In both cases, it's the sense of history I care about - not any real or tangible benefit.

 

It's the same with badges in CoH.  It's the pleasure of collecting them - and not having them all just handed to me, but having to go forth and collect, young man.  That's what I get from them.

And I don't fault or begrudge you from enjoying that. I don't personally care about badging but I know there are people that do. My point was that we're not asking for the  badges but rather for the bonuses. That being said, I don't think saying "this change will cheapen my experience" is any kind of reasonable justification to not make changes. Let's say that the badges were also granted along with the accolade powers for PvP - does that suddenly remove any pleasure you get from getting the badges, or that you got in the past? If it does, you may need to take a good hard look in the mirror.

Edited September 1, 2019 by macskull

[Kimuji]

39 minutes ago, macskull said:

Getting the accolade benefits more easily is achieving balance. I'll agree that removing the accolade bonuses would also achieve balance but that's balance via nerf instead of balance via buff and PvPers almost always get the former instead of the latter. Let me explain general PvP build philosophy to you, in the hopes you'll understand why your suggestion is not a good one. In a PvP build you build for capped HP first, 41 or more points of KB protection if you're not melee, 60-90% recharge, and usually 50%-ish range bonus. Those aren't hard and fast rules, but they're pretty consistent across most ranged AT builds. There are already some powerset combinations that would probably be good in a PvP environment but aren't usable because you can't make a build that meets those requirements without gimping yourself. Additionally, PvP has diminishing returns on set bonuses and buffs - but hit points are the one thing that doesn't. In order for my character to be effective either in solo or team PvP, I need to stay alive long enough to do my job (debuff, heal, buff, damage, etc) and with the current iteration of PvP hit points are the single most important factor in whether I'm able to do that. Building for the HP cap alone is tricky on some ATs and if I don't get that extra 20% from accolades I'm either having to make serious build sacrifices in other areas (i.e. I'm less survivable) or I just don't have as much HP as I should (i.e. I'm less survivable).

 

Making a good PvP build is tricky enough the way things are.

And yet some acheive that even if they have to go through some pve content to min max their build.

Again what is the issue here? There are pvp players getting an advantage because they are willing to go through the accolade acquisition process, those unwilling to do it feel like it is an unfair advantage. I'm sorry but how is it unfair when the only thing preventing you from getting the same bonuses is your unwillingness to do what is required to have them?

[macskull]

Just now, Kimuji said:

And yet some acheive that even if they have to go through some pve content to min max their build.

Again what is the issue here? There are pvp players getting an advantage because they are willing to go through the accolade acquisition process, those unwilling to do it feel like it is an unfair advantage. I'm sorry but how is it unfair when the only thing preventing you from getting the same bonuses is your unwillingness to do what is required to have them?

My response to your post was more focused on why the idea of removing accolade bonuses in PvP is a poor solution. PvPers aren't unwilling to accolade their characters because they already know that getting the accolades is a mandatory side activity if you want to be successful. It's not a matter of an "unfair advantage," it's removing a barrier to something that everyone's already getting. I'll use the Fitness pool as an example - almost every build took Fitness when it was a non-inherent power pool, to the point where the developers decided to give everyone Fitness as an inherent power pool. This is exactly the same idea.

[Warlawk]

5 hours ago, justicebeliever said:

Why do PvP'ers have to grind the same as PvE'ers?  Explain why it's a must and why, if they don't, it damages the game for PvE?  This is like the same old PL vs Grinder, DFB vs Content argument that everyone has to play the game a certain way...or it's not "fair".

 

'Burden of proof' that a change is needed would fall to those proposing the change. Thus far the reason given for this change is "I don't want to invest the time to earn the reward". In breaking down what the barriers are we established that the investment required  to create a complete finished end game pvp character can be measured in hours and is lower than that required for an end game pve character. Stating that the already smaller investment is too arduous would require an argument stronger than "I don't want to invest the time to earn the reward". This is at its core an MMO, if you think investing a matter of hours to have a completed endgame character is excessive, then maybe you should look somewhere other than an MMO rather than asking said MMO be reprogrammed to accommodate you. Burden of proof means the people requesting the change need to show why their time is more important than the rest of the players. The existing system works fine, if a change is needed it should have a stronger argument than "I don't want to invest time in my character for an MMO"

 

4 hours ago, macskull said:

Once again going to point out that asking to not have to do some PvE in order to be competitive in PvP isn't "gimme teh shineez nao kthxbai," whatever the hell that means.

 

Once again, coming to a PvE focused game and requesting the game be reprogrammed so that you don't have to invest a matter of hours in completing an endgame character for your chosen optional content enjoyed by a tiny minority of the game is textbook entitled behavior. Why is your time more important than that of the vast majority of the playerbase who has to earn those rewards? Make your case.

 

3 hours ago, Dan Petro said:

Okay, so you didn't address mine, but I'll address yours directly.

Post to be addressed

Spoiler

12 hours ago, Dan Petro said:

Alright I'm going to pose an easy to understand scenario to you.

 

The Devs release a new amazing endgame content for PvE.  All the bells and whistles and everyone loves to run it.  However in order to participate, you need to earn 4 special tokens. You need to get shivans in bloody bay.  You need to launch a Nuke in warburg, you need to capture the zone in RV by getting pillboxes and defeating the AV's, and finally you need earn reputation for defeating 25 unique PC characters in any PVP zone.

 

A very Sad PvE'er comes to the forums with a suggestion "Would it be possible to remove the 25 unique PC defeats?  It seems a bit excessive to have 4 barriers of entry to this amazing piece of content I enjoy.  3 honestly is more than enough in my opinon"

 

A real asshole of a PvP'er who has never run this new amazing endgame content and never plans to, comes into the thread and says "Why should we make it easier for you?"

 

 If you are failing to get the parallel here : there are 4 PvE barriers every  PVP'er has to get through to essentially "compete"  or be relevant in PvP.  Level 1-50.  IO out a build.  Run accolades, and for a vast majority, incarnate out their character (as most PvP takes place in RV and Arena at level 50).  

 

If you can't understand that (for some who think PvE in this game is near brain dead easy and want to avoid it) removing 1 of 4 barriers of entry to just play the part of the game they like is a reasonable request, then you very likely have some issues that need working through.  

 

The difference between PvP and PVE is, you can jump into any PvE content on an SO'ed build with any randomly picked powers and at some level be relevant/helpful to your team / side / self etc.  In PvP that is not true and you are more likely to end up as a detriment if you are missing some or all of the listed requirements. 

 

 

You've created a straw man argument and slung personal attacks rather than providing supporting evidence for your own position because said position is indefensible. You instead threw insults and misdirection with a weak attempt at wit to distract people from the fact that you have no argument or supporting information aside from "I don't want to earn my rewards, give them to me."

And I did address the four barriers you presented in a different post, perhaps if you read the thread you would see that, or perhaps you did and this is just yet another straw man/misdirection attempt. If you can't be bothered to invest a matter of hours in a completed end game capable MMO character, then perhaps MMOs are the wrong genre for you. If you believe the change is warranted, present an argument other than "I shouldn't have to invest time to earn the reward like the rest of the player base does."

 

3 hours ago, Dan Petro said:

*edit* Also, you never directly addressed the scenario I suggested to you, so I'm guessing your ignoring it completely was pretty much an admission of how it would be reasonable if the shoe was on the other foot.  While it was a solid move to call out personal insults, to make it seem like your position was coming from a moral high ground, neglecting to even address the scenario presented definitely cost you some points.  You need to step your Forum PvP up there! 

 

Your entire post was fallacy and I addressed the presented barriers later in the thread yet you've ignored that, an admission that your position is indefensible. When you can't argue the facts, insult the person right? Ad Hominim hooooooooo!

 

3 hours ago, Dan Petro said:

So why make this suggestion? Because the devs have shown willingness in the past to remove barriers of entry for PvE'ers that eases the grind and improves their play experience.  

So why make this suggestion? Because the devs have shown willingness in the past to remove barriers of entry for PvE'ers everyone that eases the grind and improves their play experience.

 

All the changes you listed affected everyone equally. If you want changes that benefit the 1%, you need to make a stronger case than "I don't want to invest the time in my character to earn it." Why is your time more valuable than the other 99%?

 

2 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

It's really not worth further debate, because all the opposition can be summed up as "I don't like PvP, therefore I am against anything that will benefit the people that do like it."  It's no more complicated than that.

It's really not worth further debate consideration, because all the opposition support for the idea can be summed up as "I don't like PvP, therefore I am against anything that will benefit the people that do like it. want to invest time in earning the rewards that are important to my character so the game should be reprogrammed to give them to me for free"  It's no more complicated than that. No more complicated indeed. As laid out, you can have an end game PvP character with an investment that can be measured in hours. If that's too much, perhaps MMOs are not a good fit for your playstyle.

 

1 hour ago, MunkiLord said:

I stand by my statement and how I have summed up all the opposition in this thread.

I stand by my statement and how I have summed up all the opposition support and logic for proposing this change in this thread.

 

1 hour ago, Kimuji said:

And yet some acheive that even if they have to go through some pve content to min max their build.

Again what is the issue here? There are pvp players getting an advantage because they are willing to go through the accolade acquisition process, those unwilling to do it feel like it is an unfair advantage. I'm sorry but how is it unfair when the only thing preventing you from getting the same bonuses is your unwillingness to do what is required to have them?

 

Just quoting this for emphasis and reiteration. If your time is more valuable than all the others who are willing to earn those rewards, you need to prove it. Plenty of PvE players gripe about grinding accolades, but I've never seen one ask to get them all for free if you feel you deserve them for free, make a stronger case than "I don't want to spend the time to earn them."

 

58 minutes ago, macskull said:

My response to your post was more focused on why the idea of removing accolade bonuses in PvP is a poor solution. PvPers aren't unwilling to accolade their characters because they already know that getting the accolades is a mandatory side activity if you want to be successful. It's not a matter of an "unfair advantage," it's removing a barrier to something that everyone's already getting. I'll use the Fitness pool as an example - almost every build took Fitness when it was a non-inherent power pool, to the point where the developers decided to give everyone Fitness as an inherent power pool. This is exactly the same idea.

 

Exactly the same except that it is using limited resources for the benefit of the 1% while the examples you provided benefit the entire player base equally. Again, why is your time more valuable to the point where limited resources should be devoted to letting you skip an investment the 99% would still need to make if they want that reward?

Edited September 1, 2019 by Warlawk

[justicebeliever]

52 minutes ago, macskull said:

My response to your post was more focused on why the idea of removing accolade bonuses in PvP is a poor solution. PvPers aren't unwilling to accolade their characters because they already know that getting the accolades is a mandatory side activity if you want to be successful. It's not a matter of an "unfair advantage," it's removing a barrier to something that everyone's already getting. I'll use the Fitness pool as an example - almost every build took Fitness when it was a non-inherent power pool, to the point where the developers decided to give everyone Fitness as an inherent power pool. This is exactly the same idea.

I really, really want to give you Kudo's here @macskull.  You've been hammered at on this issue for the last 24 hours...You've responded patiently, consistently, and civilly to everything that's been thrown at you...You ALMOST make me want to PvP in the game...

 

This example, regarding the Fitness inherent is a perfect example...It's essentially the same argument you are making...again, well thought out...

 

For all the people who worked so hard to get the accolades in PvE...they would still be there for them in PvE...nothing would be lost to them.   @Kimuji's suggestion would impact those players the same as yours, either way, the accolade earned would not longer matter in the PvP zones...

 

Anyway, I am going to like a bunch of your posts now, and I hope you get some sleep...

[Bionic_Flea]

Would people be opposed to an arena setting that gave an option for everyone playing had max hit points for their AT and level for the duration of the match?

 

That doesn't address zones but it seems to me that most of the competitive PvP is in the arena anyway.

[justicebeliever]

9 minutes ago, Warlawk said:

'Burden of proof' that a change is needed would fall to those proposing the change. Thus far the reason given for this change is "I don't want to invest the time to earn the reward". In breaking down what the barriers are we established that the investment required  to create a complete finished end game pvp character can be measured in hours and is lower than that required for an end game pve character. Stating that the already smaller investment is too arduous would require an argument stronger than "I don't want to invest the time to earn the reward".

I'm am not, nor should you expect anyone, to respond to your last post in any comprehensive way...it was the definition of TL;DR...Please be more succinct, if you would like to continue discussion in any meaningful way...

 

I will respond to this tidbit however...And what is the "reward"?  They aren't asking for the accolade badges...they aren't asking for accolade powers outside of the Arena or PvP zones...they aren't asking for something that some PvP'ers would get and not others...They aren't asking for anything that anyone who does NOT do PvP cares about, as has been evidenced several times in this post (by posters who would rather have dental surgery than go into a PvP zone).  They are asking for all players to be treated equally in this regard...They are asking, that as PvP'ers, they get to spend more time doing PvP instead of grinding...How is that any different than DFB instead of running low level missions?  How is it any different AE Farming instead of grinding through content?  It's not...

 

You coming back to this tired refrain about fairness...why do you care how much time the PvP'er spend on their build compared to PvE?  How will it impact your play and your good time? 

 

You and I are not the guardians of the Dev's time...you aren't paying any more for this game than I am or the PvP'ers...We aren't their shareholders, or even their customers...they are hobbyists (at this point), and as such they can decide for themselves what amount of time they want to spend on what area.  So if this the one thing a PvP'er gets in a future update, how does it break things?

 

I'm pretty much done @Warlawk, I'll leave you be, because I don't want to spend more time repeating myself, and making you repeat yourself...But regardless of the length of the posts, this still, FEELS to me exactly what MunkiLord said:

2 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

It's really not worth further debate, because all the opposition can be summed up as "I don't like PvP, therefore I am against anything that will benefit the people that do like it."  It's no more complicated than that.

 

TL;DR - The Dev's will decide for themselves what allocation to give PVP'ers...PvP'ers seem to understand that's very little Dev time...Why can't the PvP'ers decide for themselves what's the most important QoL improvement so long as is doesn't impact PvE, and why do other people think they know what's better for them? 

 

P.S. - I do agree that @Dan Petrois a master of ad hominim attacks, and would suggest you do as I do, and just /ignore him on the forums...He's just going to try and get his yucks at your expense...

[justicebeliever]

2 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Would people be opposed to an arena setting that gave an option for everyone playing had max hit points for their AT and level for the duration of the match?

 

That doesn't address zones but it seems to me that most of the competitive PvP is in the arena anyway.

Listen Ryan Reynolds...If it means more fun for PvP, then I am adamantly opposed to it.  I don't even know where an arena is, or even what it is, but I know for darn sure, I might see one, and people inside might be having fun, while I sit here on the outside grinding away at content that the DEV's FORCE ME TO PLAY when what I really want to be doing is dupin' rares and planning a trip to the Americas...I once saw a PvP'er go into a zone and the darkness that stared back at me was so deep that I've come to believe that this whole City of Heroes thing might be just a game...or a Nemesis Plot

 

I'm perma-haten this thread!

 

/extreme sarcasm off...I don't play PvP so I'm fine with whatever they are fine with...so long as it isn't dupin rares, or impacting the PvE experience...

[PaxArcana]

2 hours ago, macskull said:

Let's say that the badges were also granted along with the accolade powers for PvP - does that suddenly remove any pleasure you get from getting the badges, or that you got in the past?

Yes, it would.  Or at least greatly reduce it.

Because then, they would no longer be accomplishments.  They'd be little more than "oh, you decided to go with a BLUE cape this time" costume-change triviality.

 

...

 

But you know, you keep saying out one side of your mouth "I don't want the badges given out", then out the other side of your mouth, work to undercut my assertion "I don't want the badges given out".  Why is that?  If getting the actual badges doesn't need to be part of the fix you're seeking, then why are you fighting against my opposition to getting the badges ... when I have already, more than once, said I'd be completely fine with PvP-zone-wide buffs giving all the benefits of those accolades...?

 

IOW, if the badges really don't matter, why do you seem to be fighting so hard to get them?

Why aren't you instead saying to me, "that's a fair point.  But, as for getting the effects without the badges, only while in a PvP area, you're okay with that, right?" ... and trying to enlist me as an ally for that level of change?  (Which I would gladly enough be!)

 

1 hour ago, macskull said:

I'll use the Fitness pool as an example - almost every build took Fitness when it was a non-inherent power pool, to the point where the developers decided to give everyone Fitness as an inherent power pool. This is exactly the same idea.

Except, literally everyone got Fitness.  PvP, PvE, both, whoever you were ... you got inherent Fitness.

 

Your proposal would either be for the benefit of only PvPers, or else, would cheapen PvE accomplishments by trivializing them.  That's not balance, that's favoritism.

Edited September 1, 2019 by PaxArcana

[Warlawk]

8 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

And what is the "reward"? 

An increase of personal power for your character. This is the goal of most activities within MMO styled games. If you would like to increase the power of your character, you invest the time. If you want to change that fundamental paradigm of the entire genre of game, presenting a stronger argument than "I don't want to invest the time to earn the reward" would make a lot of sense.

 

There has been no presentation of what advantage this would bring to the community, what it would do to improve player engagement, what benefit it would offer to the game environment. The sole argument in support of making the change is "I don't want to invest the time to play my character through content to earn a reward that increases my personal power." In a genre of games where that is the fundamental principle of advancing your character, do you find that a compelling argument? Please evaluate based on the premise, facts and merit of the suggestion and reasoning, not the bleeding hearts of the poor persecuted PvP players.

[justicebeliever]

3 minutes ago, Warlawk said:

An increase of personal power for your character. This is the goal of most activities within MMO styled games. If you would like to increase the power of your character, you invest the time. If you want to change that fundamental paradigm of the entire genre of game, presenting a stronger argument than "I don't want to invest the time to earn the reward" would make a lot of sense.

 

There has been no presentation of what advantage this would bring to the community, what it would do to improve player engagement, what benefit it would offer to the game environment. The sole argument in support of making the change is "I don't want to invest the time to play my character through content to earn a reward that increases my personal power." In a genre of games where that is the fundamental principle of advancing your character, do you find that a compelling argument? Please evaluate based on the premise, facts and merit of the suggestion and reasoning, not the bleeding hearts of the poor persecuted PvP players.

Thanks for the shorter post...I appreciate it...

 

There is no personal reward.  This is a change based on location and nothing else...Personal Rewards imply some differential treatment...Don't play PvP, but walk into Bloody Bay - then you too would get a buff...If it was truly a personal reward, I would be right there with you...

[M3z]

There are so many bars of entry to pvp, I think it's a great idea to remove some of those so that more people can come play and be able to compete. Even with free accolades you still need a good IO build and incarnates to do well in zones/arena so it isn't like builds still won't take work but accolades especially the hp/end ones are pretty mandatory in today's high damage pvp environment.

Edited September 1, 2019 by M3z

[M3z]

7 minutes ago, Warlawk said:

An increase of personal power for your character. This is the goal of most activities within MMO styled games. If you would like to increase the power of your character, you invest the time. If you want to change that fundamental paradigm of the entire genre of game, presenting a stronger argument than "I don't want to invest the time to earn the reward" would make a lot of sense.

 

There has been no presentation of what advantage this would bring to the community, what it would do to improve player engagement, what benefit it would offer to the game environment. The sole argument in support of making the change is "I don't want to invest the time to play my character through content to earn a reward that increases my personal power." In a genre of games where that is the fundamental principle of advancing your character, do you find that a compelling argument? Please evaluate based on the premise, facts and merit of the suggestion and reasoning, not the bleeding hearts of the poor persecuted PvP players.

This would only effect pvpers, if you don't pvp (i'm assuming you don't) then it won't effect you. No need to get upset.

[Dan Petro]

55 minutes ago, Warlawk said:

 

'Burden of proof' that a change is needed would fall to those proposing the change. Thus far the reason given for this change is "I don't want to invest the time to earn the reward". In breaking down what the barriers are we established that the investment required  to create a complete finished end game pvp character can be measured in hours and is lower than that required for an end game pve character. Stating that the already smaller investment is too arduous would require an argument stronger than "I don't want to invest the time to earn the reward". This is at its core an MMO, if you think investing a matter of hours to have a completed endgame character is excessive, then maybe you should look somewhere other than an MMO rather than asking said MMO be reprogrammed to accommodate you. Burden of proof means the people requesting the change need to show why their time is more important than the rest of the players. The existing system works fine, if a change is needed it should have a stronger argument than "I don't want to invest time in my character for an MMO"

 

 

Once again, coming to a PvE focused game and requesting the game be reprogrammed so that you don't have to invest a matter of hours in completing an endgame character for your chosen optional content enjoyed by a tiny minority of the game is textbook entitled behavior. Why is your time more important than that of the vast majority of the playerbase who has to earn those rewards? Make your case.

 

Post to be addressed

  Hide contents

 

You've created a straw man argument and slung personal attacks rather than providing supporting evidence for your own position because said position is indefensible. You instead threw insults and misdirection with a weak attempt at wit to distract people from the fact that you have no argument or supporting information aside from "I don't want to earn my rewards, give them to me."

And I did address the four barriers you presented in a different post, perhaps if you read the thread you would see that, or perhaps you did and this is just yet another straw man/misdirection attempt. If you can't be bothered to invest a matter of hours in a completed end game capable MMO character, then perhaps MMOs are the wrong genre for you. If you believe the change is warranted, present an argument other than "I shouldn't have to invest time to earn the reward like the rest of the player base does."

 

 

Your entire post was fallacy and I addressed the presented barriers later in the thread yet you've ignored that, an admission that your position is indefensible. When you can't argue the facts, insult the person right? Ad Hominim hooooooooo!

 

So why make this suggestion? Because the devs have shown willingness in the past to remove barriers of entry for PvE'ers everyone that eases the grind and improves their play experience.

 

All the changes you listed affected everyone equally. If you want changes that benefit the 1%, you need to make a stronger case than "I don't want to invest the time in my character to earn it." Why is your time more valuable than the other 99%?

 

It's really not worth further debate consideration, because all the opposition support for the idea can be summed up as "I don't like PvP, therefore I am against anything that will benefit the people that do like it. want to invest time in earning the rewards that are important to my character so the game should be reprogrammed to give them to me for free"  It's no more complicated than that. No more complicated indeed. As laid out, you can have an end game PvP character with an investment that can be measured in hours. If that's too much, perhaps MMOs are not a good fit for your playstyle.

 

I stand by my statement and how I have summed up all the opposition support and logic for proposing this change in this thread.

 

 

Just quoting this for emphasis and reiteration. If your time is more valuable than all the others who are willing to earn those rewards, you need to prove it. Plenty of PvE players gripe about grinding accolades, but I've never seen one ask to get them all for free if you feel you deserve them for free, make a stronger case than "I don't want to spend the time to earn them."

 

 

Exactly the same except that it is using limited resources for the benefit of the 1% while the examples you provided benefit the entire player base equally. Again, why is your time more valuable to the point where limited resources should be devoted to letting you skip an investment the 99% would still need to make if they want that reward?

LOL

[Warlawk]

6 minutes ago, Dan Petro said:

LOL

Quality discourse. You've represented the pvp community pretty much exactly as most would expect. Bravo sir.

[Dan Petro]

4 minutes ago, Warlawk said:

Quality discourse. You've represented the pvp community pretty much exactly as most would expect. Bravo sir.

Anyone who reads what you wrote knows that is legit the best response anyone could give.  Because LOL, good lord dude that post was painfully hilarious.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Dan Petro

[justicebeliever]

Just now, Warlawk said:

Quality discourse. You've represented the pvp community pretty much exactly as most would expect. Bravo sir.

Told ya'.  

 

Regardless of how bad some of their members are...just try to remember that there are some pretty bad PvE posters on these forums as well...Remember that @macskullhasn't resorted to these behaviors...

[Warlawk]

11 minutes ago, Dan Petro said:

Anyone who reads what you wrote knows that is legit the best response anyone could give.  Because LOL, good lord dude.  

Once again, unable or unwilling to address the discussion in question.

 

9 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

Told ya'.  

 

Regardless of how bad some of their members are...just try to remember that there are some pretty bad PvE posters on these forums as well...Remember that @macskullhasn't resorted to these behaviors...

Eh, I can argue a position without being emotionally invested in it, his response doesn't bother me but I'm happy to provide him with continuing interaction since it offers an excellent opportunity for him to completely invalidate his own credibility in ways that no one else could possibly manage.

 

And I have no issues with Mac, I just strongly disagree with him and have not yet seen any argument in support of the change aside from "I don't want to play my character to earn rewards that are important to the function of that character."

 

I would note however, that you did not address my specific question.

28 minutes ago, Warlawk said:

The sole argument in support of making the change is "I don't want to invest the time to play my character through content to earn a reward that increases my personal power." In a genre of games where that is the fundamental principle of advancing your character, do you find that a compelling argument? Please evaluate based on the premise, facts and merit of the suggestion and reasoning, not the bleeding hearts of the poor persecuted PvP players.

 

... In that you wanted to indicate it was not a personal increase of power. This is being requested by pvp players for pvp characters. In every way that matters, it is an increase the the power of all of their characters that applies equally and would be rewarded with no investment of effort by said character.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Warlawk

[Dan Petro]

10 minutes ago, Warlawk said:

Once again, unable or unwilling to address the discussion in question.

 

Eh, I can argue a position without being emotionally invested in it, his response doesn't bother me but I'm happy to provide him with continuing interaction since it offers an excellent opportunity for him to completely invalidate his own credibility in ways that no one else could possibly manage.

 

And I have no issues with Mac, I just strongly disagree with him and have not yet seen any argument in support of the change aside from "I don't want to play my character to earn rewards that are important to the function of that character."

 

I would note however, that you did not address my specific question.

 

LOL. Please keep going, your emotional investment in this argument is the gift that keeps on giving. 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Dan Petro

[Widower]

Hi, friends. Could we all tone it down in here?

[generalkno]

The original idea of this is in good spirit and would 100% make is easier to get into pvp and I know it's been discussed outside of the boards and if it were to be implemented would be done in a way that it had no impact on the non pvper's in the game. So I'm not going to look for debate here, just want to thank the GM's for their countless hours they donate to this community and the active discourse they've had with us.

 

I'd also like to point out that this thread was necro'd

[macskull]

1 hour ago, PaxArcana said:

Yes, it would.  Or at least greatly reduce it.

Because then, they would no longer be accomplishments.  They'd be little more than "oh, you decided to go with a BLUE cape this time" costume-change triviality.

 

...

 

But you know, you keep saying out one side of your mouth "I don't want the badges given out", then out the other side of your mouth, work to undercut my assertion "I don't want the badges given out".  Why is that?  If getting the actual badges doesn't need to be part of the fix you're seeking, then why are you fighting against my opposition to getting the badges ... when I have already, more than once, said I'd be completely fine with PvP-zone-wide buffs giving all the benefits of those accolades...?

 

IOW, if the badges really don't matter, why do you seem to be fighting so hard to get them?

Why aren't you instead saying to me, "that's a fair point.  But, as for getting the effects without the badges, only while in a PvP area, you're okay with that, right?" ... and trying to enlist me as an ally for that level of change?  (Which I would gladly enough be!)

 

Except, literally everyone got Fitness.  PvP, PvE, both, whoever you were ... you got inherent Fitness.

 

Your proposal would either be for the benefit of only PvPers, or else, would cheapen PvE accomplishments by trivializing them.  That's not balance, that's favoritism.

I'm not fighting to get the badges. I've already said I care nothing at all for the badges. This isn't, and never was, about getting the badges.

 

If we are going to make arguments about limited developer resources and only using those resources on things that will affect a majority of players I'd look no further than the most recent patch and the "roleplayer" tag. I'd be willing to bet that the serious roleplaying community is about the same size as the PvP community, yet I don't recall anyone outside the RP community having a fit because the the development team devoted resources to something that didn't affect them. There have been new exploration badges and accolades added to the game even since Homecoming started up, and I'm also willing to bet that the hardcore badging community is about the same size as the PvP community, yet I don't recall anyone outside the badging community having a fit because the development team devoted resources to something that didn't affect them. Why is it that whenever the PvP community asks for a little bit of developer attention everyone suddenly cries foul? I'm not entirely convinced it's because the more vocal critics of PvP just don't like the PvP community and don't want them to have nice things because they had one bad experience in a PvP zone twelve years ago.

Edited September 1, 2019 by macskull

[Haijinx]

The amount of time people have invested in this thread, they could have killed 100 Fake Nemesi on multiple characters.

 

 

[Kimuji]

This thread has become more confrontational that it should indeed. If the devs think that they can cook up a (non trivial) pvp alternative to obtain the accolades without stretching their time and resources too thin... I've seen more unreasonable requests that this one the forum.

14 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

The amount of time people have invested in this thread, they could have killed 100 Fake Nemesi on multiple characters.

lol (genuine lol, not a sarcastic one).

Edited September 1, 2019 by Kimuji